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Why are they protesting?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Holy Diver, Oct 12, 2011.

  1. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    One of my old classmates who writes for The Nation forwarded this article from Buisness insider about the 99 protests, and presents some shocking data about whats been going on, where we are now, and where this thing is headed.

    So...if you have to ask "WHY are these people protesting?" here is a great place to start looking...

    CHARTS: Here's What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About...

    great read, lots of facts too.

    enjoy, and discuss.
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Usually when things go bad in anything the solution is "get rid of the boss and his cohorts"

    These people are protesting big business, banks and millionaires, didn't Obama just give them trillions of dollars to Bail them out, as Cain said "why aren't they proteating in front of the White House"

    I think the protesters are in the right church but the wrong pew.

    Isn't Barack Hussein Obama and all of those other grinning drunken sex pervert politicians the real problem, shouldn't the protesters pack up their tents and move to Washington, shouldn't a few of them camp out in front of The Pelosi Vineyard, isn't Nancy another one of the Billionaire's, where does George Soros live?
  3. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Hooray for stimulus!

    [​IMG]

    It's like Keynesians never heard of "crowding out".

    Here's the one that should concern the companies hoping to sell lots of stuff:

    [​IMG]

    The things that companies don't seem to think about when they offshore is: who is going to buy their stuff? If you're a global conglomerate with a presence in Asia, I suppose you are counting on just shifting market share overseas, but the whole point of moving operations there was to save money so they will by design have less to spend.

    As Ford said (a variation on his maxim about paying workers enough so that they could buy his cars):

    That's the answer, IMHO. Not taking from one party and giving it to another. The people running the corporations don't know what they are doing.

    Ford again:

    Last edited: Oct 12, 2011
  4. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks for posting that. The speaker was passionate, and there's a lot he said that I agree with. But, my problems with Ron Paul remain:
    - There needs to be a full and thorough investigation of his racist newsletter.
    - He needs a realistic solution to addressing the legitimate needs of the poor
    - He needs to apologize for his statement that the North should have bought the slaves from the South and freed them.
    - He needs to recognize that minorities really are at a disadvantage and some anti-discrimination laws are still necessary.
    - He needs to convince me that libertarianism will not simply lead to the same thing it led to in the 1900s, the age of robber barons, tenements, children working 72 hour weeks, and people being a wage that they could not live on.

    The libertarian who comes along who can address those issues will get a lot of support from liberals.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2011
  6. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I assume you mean "people being paid a wage that they could not live on". Isn't that why people are protesting now?
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's part of what people are protesting. The problem with our economy is that in our over zealous effort to protect the wealthy, the working people are being squeezed. Clearly, we need to recognize that the great inequity in the distribution of wealth is causing us economic problems. That doesn't mean we need to go to communism, but it probably means we need to return to a more progressive income tax.
  8. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I think the squeeze is because of stagnating wages. Our income tax is already progressive. The total being collected is too low, but I don't see how that directly impacts wages.

    The golfers running our corporations will be our ruin.

    When I was in business school, we read this paper:

    http://carmine.se.edu/cvonbergen/Successful%20vs%20Effective%20Real%20Managers.pdf

    It demonstrates what most of us already suspected: the way to get ahead in corporate America is to kiss butt. We have had 30-40 years of attempting to achieve profit growth by driving out labor costs. It doesn't work. Higher wages create the incentive to invest in productivity improvements which leads to capital formation. I don't see how higher taxes on the wealthy can fix that.
  9. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Our income tax was vastly more progressive up until Reagan, and one could easily argue there's a correlation between progressiveness and a strong economy. Reagan, of course, is the exception, but that's because he simply deficit spent at record levels. Obama's failure is to restore the progressive income tax. That would fix the deficit, give the government enough money to replace welfare type programs with workfare and job training programs, and create the possibility for lower taxes for many working people. One of the weird things about our economy that's not discussed enough is the fact that the replacement of pensions with 401Ks has hurt the middle class and helped the wealthy by increasing the amount of investment. Clearly, there is not correlation with this increase in investment and the steady growth of our economy. As long as we have a larger workforce than we need, wages can be kept low except for certain classes of specialists, who have become less rare because higher education is somewhat more available than it once was.

    As far as the article you posted goes, I only skimmed it, but of course read your commentary. I agree with you. For quite a few years, I worked for a leading international management consulting company (where I did mostly computer work). I was very outspoken and opinionated, something which the company truly fostered. I remember once getting into a heated argument with a colleague who went to my boss (who happened to be very high up in the company) and complained. My boss said to him, "What's wrong with a heated argument? If that's what it takes to solve a problem so be it." Now, you're right things have really changed. When I worked for a leading technology company in the 1990s, my boss (a very nice man) got way ahead simply by kissing ass and going to every meeting possible. He knew nothing, and that was good for me, because he let me do things my way, which was more often good than bad (but sometimes the other way around!).
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2011
  11. DarrylS

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    As mentioned by first hand experience yesterday, that there are the usual share of suspects there.. but if you look closer there were a whole lot more there, older folks like myself who are concerned about their pensions, returning vets, unemployed people, hardhats etc.

    The problem with these situations is that the most disenfranchised make the most noise.. and are usually in the forefront..
  12. Harry Boy

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  13. DarrylS

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  14. The Brandon Five

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    #75 Jersey

    Are you measuring progressiveness purely in terms of marginal rates? In terms of share of tax burden, it is more progressive now than it was in 1980. The top 10% paid 49% of all Federal taxes in 1980. In 2008 it was 70%. The share paid by the top quartile went from 73% to 86%.

    Source:
    The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

    Lower-income people already pay almost no Federal income taxes.

    Pension plans also invested and do invest in stocks and bonds, just like individuals do within their retirement plans. If investment has increased, isn't that more likely a function of the increasing concentration of wealth? I mean, how can the investments of the working class have a larger impact on aggregate investment than the holdings of the upper class?

    My point was that this phenomenon creates the situation where the people running our largest organizations are not the most competent. From the article:
    The linkage to my earlier comments about wages is that I think that the focus on just driving down labor costs might be a function of the general lack of imagination and vision in America's boardrooms.
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That simply shows that the top 10% are getting a whoppingly disproportionate amount of Wealth. It simply the severity of the wealth gap. We haven't seen anything like this since the turn of the last century. As the middle class and poor get poorer, and the rich get richer, they are obviously going to be paying a larger share of tax burden even with a flat tax.

    I'm talking more about the middle class, but also the poor who pay sales tax, property tax, Medicaid and Social Security taxes, and various fees.

    As the middle class shift their savings into 401ks, they are shoring up the investments of the wealthy. I suspect that the primary vehicle for 401Ks has been mutual funds, while pensions were far more diversified in bonds and treasury notes, as well as stocks. That said, what I didn't think about, is the reality that pensions provided predictable investments while in the case of 401Ks, many people do not have the money to invest (although they should). So, in a sense I agree with your point.

    I agree with that. Boardrooms are country clubs where like-minded people basically protect there own kind. Thus the golden parachute that one board members gives will be returned to him (or a family member) by another board member in another company. It's a largely inbred clique that runs many of our nation's businesses, and that has stifled imagination to some degree. On a related point, I used to have a boss who was a Republican ex-Marine, who often complained that our military siphoned off so much of the technical talent that it was hurting American competitiveness in other areas. Given his politics (very pro Bush and anti-Clinton at the time), I think his complaint had some merit.
  16. patsfan13

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    More from the something for nothing protest:

    OWS Protester Wants College Paid for Because That Is What He Wants - By Charles C. W. Cooke - The Corner - National Review Online


    video of this moron at the link.



    The PJ Tatler » Scenes from the So-Called 99%
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2011
  17. PatriotsReign

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    Great quotes from Ford! Your post made me realize that although our gov't can't do much about our economy, our corporations certainly could if they were willing to follow Ford's advise.

    Mainly, that it benefits corporations to produce in America and pay high wages. Unless your goal is to increase world-wide demand...I often wonder if our corp. leaders actually have any long-term vision.

    Hell, I guess we can always build more casino's!:rocker:
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2011
  18. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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    Just curious -- anyone seen any polls about support for the fleabaggers? I haven't seen any that I can recall.
  19. wistahpatsfan

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  20. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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