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Why are other teams so hot for our coordinators?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PromisedLand, Oct 12, 2007.

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  1. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    I posted this in the thread about McDaniels being the next hot head coaching prospect, but it kind of got lost amongst other debates - and I think it is a legit question and deserves a thread of its own, so here goes:

    It would seem to me that if NFL GM's have any brains (debatable in some cases), they wouldn't be in such a hurry to hire Patriots assistants as head coaches. I mean, BB's ex-lieutenants haven't exactly covered themselves with glory, have they?

    Romeo might or might not save his job after two horrible seasons in Cleveland.

    Mangini started out like gangbusters against a cupcake schedule but that is starting to look like a fluke as the Jets start his second year 1-4.

    Charlie is taking heavy fire at Notre Dame as his Fighting Irish lose their first 5 games in this, his 3rd year. ND fans are wondering why Charlie got a long term deal when Ty Willingham had a better record at this point in his tenure. Granted, that isn't an NFL team but generally guys who have coached at both levels do better in college - think Pete Carroll, Steve Spurrier, Butch Davis, etc.

    And what about Nick Saban, who was BB's DC in Cleveland? He didn't exactly save the day for the Dolphins, did he?

    So I ask again, why are NFL GM's so eager to hire any warm body with "worked under BB" on his resume, when none of them have really panned out yet?

    The natural assumption is that because the Patriots have been so successful in the BB era, that any assistant is going to be able to reproduce the magic somewhere else. The evidence indicates otherwise. Sooner or later the other GM's will figure that out.
  2. carolinatony

    carolinatony Rookie

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    Easy.
    They think ANYONE who works with BB will turn them around.
    I keep saying we need to hire 2/3 idiots and give them a title and watch some teams grab them up :)
  3. cavtroop

    cavtroop Rookie

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    Everyone wants to fall over themselves to emulate 'The Patriot Way' of doing things. However, they are mistaken if they think that comes solely from a Head Coach (or former pats co-ordinators). It's driven from within the organization - from the Owner, to the GM, to the HC and OC's. A HC subscribing to "The Patriot Way" will only go so far in the face of incompetent owners and GMs.
  4. The Boston Patriot

    The Boston Patriot PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Patriot's coordinators or:

    Jets Coordinators, Bengals Coordinators, Dolphins Coordinators, etc. I know
    which ones I would be interested in. :D
  5. DynastyDriven

    DynastyDriven Rookie

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    They have Patriots envy
  6. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They want to learn how to "cheat" the way Belichick does..
  7. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    The ultimate reason is that bringing in a shiny new Patriots coach sells season tickets and corporate boxes for a season or two.

    If the coach actually pans out, that's considered a bonus.
  8. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    That's cynical but could be the truth.
  9. Terry Glenn is a cowgirl

    Terry Glenn is a cowgirl Banned

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    You are going to base 1 bad year (Saban's second year) and bail????

    If he wanted to right the ship in Miami, I believe he would have done it.

    If he went with Brees... he would have been the coach of the year.

    He IS a good coach imo... no matter what anyone else thinks.

    His first year was 9-7. Nothing to laugh at.

    He is more savvy then Mangini...

    Quit making so many assumptions.
  10. He Ban Me

    He Ban Me Banned

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    Good question, I can't figure it out either.

    Mangina-sucks
    Weis-sucks
    Crennel-sucks
  11. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    Actually you're the only one making assumptions - highlighted above. I challenge you to highlight ONE assumption that I made.

    I said Saban didn't exactly save the day in Miami - do you disagree with that? His record was 15-17 in two seasons, with the second season at 6-10. And then he bailed.
  12. Terry Glenn is a cowgirl

    Terry Glenn is a cowgirl Banned

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    He wasn't that bad... why he left?

    I dunno.

    Must be the excessive pressure.

    He still is good tho.

    Not coming down on you... but it is odd that he didn't stick with Miami.
  13. Captain Cool

    Captain Cool Rookie

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    #12 Jersey
    They think that whatever BB has, he instills in his coordinators.

    Really, it's about trying to turn their franchises into the Patriots.
  14. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    I think that they recognize that he hires the right kind of people. He takes bright kids just out of college and grooms them in the intracacies and nuances of the game. He teaches them the SWOT strategy he employs, and teaches them how to identify and maximize tallent. I think they see a bright mind coming out of a stellar pipeline and simply take advantage of the situation.
  15. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Weis and Romeo made the decisions to go to teams without sufficient talent to compete right away. In the case of Romeo, it's easy to see that the talent level is starting to rise and the team is starting to improve as a result. The question with RAC seems to be whether or not he's going to be allowed to ride the upswing.

    In the case of Weis, the result is that he's got to suffer with the two terrible recruiting classes that Winningham left him before his recruit classes become the upperclassmen and can lead the team. Having said that, he really needs to have better linemen in the pipeline (I don't know if he does or not) or his seasons are going to keep going into the toilet, and I can't vouch for his recruiting ability to date. The collapse of that team was pretty easy to see coming for those who looked at last year's team and saw what would be left after the upperclassmen left.

    Mangini took a 'mediocre' team and used a soft schedule to get to the playoffs. This season, he's dealing with a more difficult schedule, a #1 draft pick who held out, and what looks to be a quarterback who's arm strength is really deteriorating after multiple shoulder surgeries. The fact that he is behaving like a Soviet when it comes to his players isn't helping any either, but it's clear that he is good enough to coach in the NFL. He may be a tool, but is there anyone here who wouldn't take him over Childress, for example? At least he's young enough to possibly learn from his mistakes.
  16. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    Mangini may yet turn out to be a great coach, but right now he is captain of a sinking ship and from the sounds coming out of his locker room the ship may be called the Bounty.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2007
  17. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Where did anything about the team's record? It doesn't take a seer to realize that the Browns are an improving team.

    There are 4 classes (with some 5th year exceptions) on a college team. When Weis arrived, he had only Ty's players available. Those players move from freshman to senior and then graduate. A coach is stuck with the previous coach's players for 4 seasons, barring early exits. Ty's players are still on the Notre Dame team, and are the players who should be the team's best. The players are just bad, as the recruiting 'analysts' predicted they would be. Now, once Ty's players are gone, Weis will be reliant upon his own recruits and will stand or fall based upon their success. That time simply has not yet come. Weis proved quite capable of coaching talent when Quinn and company were around. The question is going to be whether or not he can recruit and develop talent as well.

    http://media.www.ndsmcobserver.com/media/storage/paper660/news/2005/02/01/Sports/Football.Recruiting.Weis.First.Signing.Class.Nearly.Complete-847652.shtml
    Notice the year for that first class.


    As for Mangini, I was not defending him, just explaining his position. He was a success last year, and has not been one through 5 games this season. As young as he is, that doesn't make him a failure. He showed last season that he can coach at the NFL level. Now he has to show that he can learn from his mistakes and improve.
  18. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    I actually agree with a few of the posters here in that, short term, they do not look very good. Long term.............. it remains to be seen.

    RAC - I believe Cleveland IS GETTING better, and for sure they have a lot of younger talent. Anderson, Edwards, Winslow, plus a few older vets for leadership. But again, will he be allowed to finish. If they get a whiff of .500 this year, I think he might.

    Sabin - Again, he probably could have succeeded long term, but the situation down there was terrible and his departure was inevitable.

    Magina - as much as I hate the guy, Promised Land might be right. In the right situation, he could find some success. Well, at least he probably wouldn’t be any worse then some of the other numbskull HC that have coached at this level.

    Crennel - Who gives a crap about ND anyway :cool:
  19. PatsSteve1

    PatsSteve1 Rookie

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    I don't think it's an easy thing to be able to tell which coordinators or asst. coaches are going to turn into good NFL head coaches. That coach also better go to a team with a pretty good core of players(including at east a decent QB) or it's going to be hard to look good as a HC. So which coaches is a GM or owner going to choose? Most likely ones from the better teams that already have a good HC. The coordinators and asst. coaches chosen almost always were good at the position the held. It just doesn't always translate to being a good HC.
  20. solman

    solman Rookie

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    Most first-time head coaches suck. The question is how the first gigs of BB's assistants will compare to the first gigs of non-BB coaches over a period of time. Its much to early to answer that question.
  21. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    No, the question is whether BB's assistants are more likely to succeed than other coaching candidates - experienced or not. The question is why are other teams so hot for our coordinators, when they can hire anyone they want.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2007
  22. indcolts18288

    indcolts18288 Rookie

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    My guess would be because of their innate ability to use a video camera.
  23. Hollywood_Brady

    Hollywood_Brady Rookie

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    being under BB is a good thing and other teams know that... coaches under the apprenticeship of bellichick become good coaches to really good coaches... its just that when they leave for another team, they are put in very ugly situations... our ex-coordinator are good coaches but not miracle workers, even BB's time in cleveland is hopeless.
  24. PatsSteve1

    PatsSteve1 Rookie

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    Yeah. That's a real useful comment to this discusion
  25. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    It doesn't make him a failure but it doesn't make him a success either. Let's remember what the original question of this thread was - Why are other teams so hot for our coordinators? If none of Saban, Weis, Romeo or Mangini have panned out (to date), why should there be any interest in 31 year old Josh McDaniels?
  26. patsfan209

    patsfan209 Rookie

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    To me, you have to take that chance and hope the coordinator you chose happens to be the one that wins you that championship. Look at how many assistants Bill Walsh lost to head coaching jobs and I think only one (Mike Holmgren) lived up to expectations. And look how many assistants Holmgren lost and I believe one (Jon Gruden) won a Super Bowl as a HC.

    As people have said already, teams want a piece of success. Picking off a coaching assistant is a natural way to do so.

    Heck, if I own and ran a team today, both Pats coordinators would be high on my list of candidates to be my team's head coach. Especially if the Pats win the Super Bowl this year. :)
  27. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    Of course they want a piece of success and of course picking off a coaching assistant seems like a natural way to do so, but is their any factual evidence that it is in fact a natural way to do so? My contention is that at least in the case of BB's assistants there is none - they are 0 for 4 in terms of sustained head coaching success at any level.

    Your mention of Holmgrern and the fact that only one of his assistants has been successful would seem to provide further evidence that a chip off the old block is not necessarily going to become as successful as the original block. How many of his other assistants have become NFL HC's? Off the top of my head I can think of Andy Reid, Mariucci, and Sherman. Some quick google research brings up the additional names Dick Jauron, Marty Morningweg, and Ray Rhodes. Reid has had some success, as well as Mariucci when he was with the 49ers. Jauron had one 13-3 season with the Bears but eventually got fired. But I actually think Holmgren's assistants have had more success, percentagewise, than BB's.

    edit: while doing the aforementioned google research I came across an interesting article. It's a bit outdated but traces the coaching roots of all 32 NFL head coaches as of the date it was written. It would be interesting to analyze this to try to answer questions such as:

    1. Does the likelihood of an assistant's success as a HC depend on which tree he comes from?

    2. Do former assistants as a group have a better success rate as a group than college coaches, when they become an NFL HC? How about guys with both kinds of experience? etc.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2007
  28. SpiderFox53

    SpiderFox53 Rookie

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    So far this season, it appears as if the Browns are on an upswing, you don't have to be a seer to see that.

    Charlie was hired after signing day, he has two official classes under his belt (the true freshmen this year and the redshirt freshmen and true sophmores this year) all other players on the team were recruited by Willingham. Which means the majority of the starters on the field today were Willinghams players not Charlies. His recruiting abilities remain to be seen.

    As for Mangina, he's a rat fink and I don't care about him.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2007
  29. jbb9s

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    Maybe McDaniels gets lured away and Weis comes back after getting canned in South Bend.
  30. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    Weis is in ND for another eight years. I think that if ND had gone .500 this year, Weis deserved coach of the century. De La Salle or Midland coulda beaten ND tallent wise.

    With regards to RAC and Weis, it was apparent they were two of the best in the league on back to back championship teams, so they were offered jobs. It's a copycat league, and the way it has always worked.

    In regards to our younger cordinators, IE Mangina, Daboll and McDaniels, it is a reflection upon BB. He has always been known for his eye for tallent. He is in a rare situation currently in that he has potential MBA minds wanting to coach for him. I mean, we have seen the likes of Herm Edwards and Mike Tice...there aren't many brilliant minds in football. Belichick is an exception in my opinion. His coaching is highly strategic and cerebral and that appeals to the best and brightest young minds in the game. When you take a high level intellectual tallent and combine it with the highest level of training you produce a potential for greatness. Whenever you combine a tested rubric for excellence and people who are bright enough to comprehend and expand upon it you have the potential for greatness. That is what the other teams see.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2007
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