Who's Right Regarding Our Corners?

[Kontradiction]

Was it the hip too? I know he had some problem with a fused wrist or something, but I thought the hip was new to his pro career.

Nunchucks is right. It was the knee I got mixed up with the hip. But yeah, he had injury issues before even coming into the league. It's pretty safe at this point to say that he was a complete waste of a draft pick. I would be shocked if he made it through camp this year.

 

[ATippett56]

Only if you make 3 assumptions:

1. That they wouldn't have Dowling on any level

Ras-I Dowling has only proven in the NFL is the ability to land on injured reserve.

Only if you make 3 assumptions:

2. That they wouldn't choose to have McCourty split or just move back there until the injury passed.

Devin McCourty was not moved back to corner in the second half of the AFC Championship Game against the Baltimore Ravens.

Only if you make 3 assumptions:

3. That they won't either bring in some kind of vet for TC competition and/or take a flier on a mid/late round pick.

The New England Patriots have not signed another cornerback, aside from Aqib Talib and Marquice Cole, in unrestricted free agency to date.

 

[supafly]

Ras-I Dowling has only proven in the NFL is the ability to land on injured reserve.

So now we're going by the 2011 and 2012 seasons to judge our current roster? I guess guys like Amendola and Edelman are completely screwed and useless then, especially since they've both landed on IR in the past two seasons.

Dowling played in 6 games last season and is a very high draft pick. If he isn't hampered by the injury he'll certainly be in the mix for playing time. How is that an unreasonable statement?

Devin McCourty was not moved back to corner in the second half of the AFC Championship Game against the Baltimore Ravens.

McCourty played both CB/S positions by switching back and forth in the last SB loss vs the NYG. Again, how it is unreasonable to think this could be a possibility again if they get into a jam? Especially one that would be longer term due to injury.

And I'm not sure why you're bringing up the 2nd half of the AFFCG, because we had a chance to go up 20-7 or 16-7 at the worst late in the 3rd quarter, had Welker not dropped the ball again.

What would have led Belichick to think that he needed to make a change in the second half of the AFFCG, when our defense limited them to one score (7 pts) with 2/3 of the game having been played? It wasn't until the last 20 min of the game that BAL scored 3 TD's in a row, and turnovers were part of that.

You seem to think that just because Belichick didn't insert McCourty at CB in a 14-13 game to start the 4th quarter that this somehow means it would never be considered? That is very shortsighted of you to say the least.

The New England Patriots have not signed another cornerback, aside from Aqib Talib and Marquice Cole, in unrestricted free agency to date.

So this definitely means that they are 100% done now at the position this year in FA? Are you getting your information striaght from Belichick, or one of his assistants?

 

[pork3]

in case there is an injury to Dowling

Based on precedent with Dowling, I doubt we should be using the term "in case".

-Jamman

 

[ATippett56]

So now we're going by the 2011 and 2012 seasons to judge our current roster? I guess guys like Amendola and Edelman are completely screwed and useless then, especially since they've both landed on IR in the past two seasons.

Since when did Danny Amendola land on injured reserve last season? Since when has Julian Edelman all of a sudden morphed into Wes Welker? Julian Edelman has missed more games in four seasons than Wes Welker has in his entire career.

Dowling played in 6 games last season and is a very high draft pick. If he isn't hampered by the injury he'll certainly be in the mix for playing time. How is that an unreasonable statement?

What has Dowling done in two seasons to prove he is nothing more than a JAG cornerback?

And I'm not sure why you're bringing up the 2nd half of the AFFCG, because we had a chance to go up 20-7 or 16-7 at the worst late in the 3rd quarter, had Welker not dropped the ball again.

Wes Welker is no longer on the New England Patriots roster. What the hell does this have to do with Devin McCourty playing cornerback?

So this definitely means that they are 100% done now at the position this year in FA? Are you getting your information striaght from Belichick, or one of his assistants?

Enlighten us all on this unrestricted free agent cornerback gem that is still available?

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Draft another CB this draft. I like Talib and Dennard. Hope Talib stays healthy all year. Dowling...i could care less if the pats were to drop him tomorrow

 

[supafly]

Since when did Danny Amendola land on injured reserve last season? Since when has Julian Edelman all of a sudden morphed into Wes Welker? Julian Edelman has missed more games in four seasons than Wes Welker has in his entire career.

What I said was that if you're going to base the past injury concerns with Dowling as a "sure thing" that he won't contribute, then you'd have to do the same with Amendola and Edelman, possibly even Gronkowski too---all players that were injured in the past 2 yrs, missed games, and landed on IR in some form in the past couple of seasons.

If you're going to cry about Dowling, then cry about Amendola and Edelman too. Obviously Bill Belichick does not think the same way you do in regards to giving up on players as easily.

What has Dowling done in two seasons to prove he is nothing more than a JAG cornerback?

My comment that if Dowling is healthy he will be in the mix stands by itself. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say.

Wes Welker is no longer on the New England Patriots roster. What the hell does this have to do with Devin McCourty playing cornerback?

Why would Belichick have chosen to put McCourty in at CB in the second half when we were up 13-7 with 2/3 of the game completed?

What would have led him to believe that the Ravens were going to suddenly turn on the offensive production and score 3 TD's in the last 20 min of the game when our defense (without Talib after 6 plays) had held them to absolutely nothing?

The Ravens defeated us by throwing to their TE's down the seams, so it didn't exactly happen the way you remember vs Cole aside from a couple of plays. Cole did just fine for 3 quarters.

You act as if since Belichick didn't choose to put McCourty in the AFFCG in the 2nd half, that he'd never do such a thing again...that's ridiculous. He switched McCourty back and forth in the entire SB 46 vs the NYG and the defense did well.

You may choose to not want to consider the fact that McCourty could hold his own at CB for a handful of games if the need arises, but most of us will definitely consider it, especially with the safety position shored up even more now.

Enlighten us all on this unrestricted free agent cornerback gem that is still available?

Again, the thought that the situation can be improved upon without taking a high draft pick certainly exists.

My original statement spoke of a mid/late round pick (which has not happened yet), a UDFA (which has not happened yet), a roster cut in TC (which has not happened yet), and the possibility of still signing a veteran free agent CB. You just happened to try and twist around my words to make it sound like I was lobbying for a FA corner, which isn't the case. 3 out of my 4 choices have not occurred yet due to the draft happening at the end of the month and TC taking place in the summer. How could he have addressed these avenues if the time period hasn't allowed him to do such a thing?

There is a fine line between dedicating too much to one position and solidifying the position, and that's why Bill Belichick makes these choices. We currently have 4-5 CB's who can start at the moment for 2 spots, so there is a debate as to whether or not he'll wait until next year or spend another high round pick on the position this year. You act as if though your opinion is the only one that matters...

We have bigger needs at WR, DL, and maybe even OL, so the thought of spending a mid/later round pick on a CB certainly is quite valid. There's definitely a chance that Belichick chooses to wait until next year after the situations with Talib, Dowling, and possibly even any future additions have been made clearer.

As PatfanKen stated, the situation with Dowling is certainly going to weigh in Belichick's decision this year as to how to prioritize the choices.

 

[supafly]

Draft another CB this draft. I like Talib and Dennard. Hope Talib stays healthy all year. Dowling...i could care less if the pats were to drop him tomorrow

It's not really about whether or not to spend a draft pick at CB, as most of us want that. It's more about whether or not we need to prioritize spending a high round pick over the positions of WR and DL (maybe even OL).

That is more of the debate.

We won't know what Belichick is thinking until he does it, just the same as every year, but I fall into the group that sees WR, DL, and maybe even OL (likely on equal par as CB) as coming first.

When you assume a trade out of the 1st rd, a mid round pick makes much more sense for the position of CB. A mid to late round pick is also a possibility, as something in rounds 4 or 5 could also happen.

It just depends on where you see the priorities needing addressed first, and I don't see CB at the very top of the list.

 

[Nunchucks]

I do not know why people would put any kind of faith in a guy who has barely played any football in two years. Dowling is a pong shot to make the roster at this point. The patriots have two cbs that have proven they can play on the outside. That is it.

 

[mgteich]

IMHO, Belichick is more likely to trust a CB off the street than a 5th round rookie.

I have little interest in 4th through 6th round draft choices, although we are likely to have some. We have a chance for four good men in the 2nd and 3rd. I could see a 4th round OG make the team.

I suspect that a factor that we don't consider much is Belichick's evaluation of our safeties. He may really like Wilson, Wilson and Gregory at safety, with a draftee in training. Drafting a safety would allow us to consider moving McCourty back to corner.

It's not really about whether or not to spend a draft pick at CB, as most of us want that. It's more about whether or not we need to prioritize spending a high round pick over the positions of WR and DL (maybe even OL).

That is more of the debate.

We won't know what Belichick is thinking until he does it, just the same as every year, but I fall into the group that sees WR, DL, and maybe even OL (likely on equal par as CB) as coming first.

When you assume a trade out of the 1st rd, a mid round pick makes much more sense for the position of CB. A mid to late round pick is also a possibility, as something in rounds 4 or 5 could also happen.

It just depends on where you see the priorities needing addressed first, and I don't see CB at the very top of the list.

 

[Brady6]

IMHO, Belichick is more likely to trust a CB off the street than a 5th round rookie.

Dennard is really lucky he slipped all the way to 7th.. If he had come to us in 5th he'd of never had a shot.

 

[Brady6]

Draft another CB this draft. I like Talib and Dennard. Hope Talib stays healthy all year. Dowling...i could care less if the pats were to drop him tomorrow

Dropping Dowling but you like Talib? Little hypercritical don't you think? Giving one guy a pass for injuries and punishing another and add to that the guy who gets the pass has injuries that normally are caused by lack of conditioning.

Dowling had a major injury which takes many players 2 years to come back from. So many people rush to judgement in this forum lately and its always such a negative judgement which is even worse.

People were writing off Gerald McCoy down in Tampa Bay last offseason saying he was a bust and to cut him well he showed up for his year three and had a pro bowl year. But you are letting the 33rd pick in the 2011 draft go tomorrow.. Ok that's smart.

 

[Deus Irae]

OPTION ONE
Many here think that we are all set set with Talib & Dennard as starters, Arrington in the slot, and Cole as an emergency backup and top gunner. We also have Dowling as our 5th corner, if we even carry a 5th.

OPTION 2
Others, including many of mediots, consider that corner is one of our cry top needs, certainly worthy of our first or second draft pick.

I choose Option 2.

It's yet another failing of the Patriots this offseason that the team didn't add a veteran corner. With players ranging from Grimes to Winfield available, the Patriots decided to stick with Mr. I.R. himself, Ras-I Dowling, and forego upgrading the position. Option one and Option two are both horse out of the barn type choices. One is wishful thinking (Option 1), the other is yet another desperate gamble that could have been avoided with better front office maneuvering (Option 2).

 

[Claremonster]

Comparing the depth of the secondary then and the 2013 version is completely unfair.

We already have 3 more players (Adrian Wilson, Ras-I-Dowling, Aqib Talib) than we had in last season's AFCCG loss, and potential for at least another player or two through the usual methods of UDFAs, roster cuts, current veteran FA signings, and even a mid/late round draft pick.

Whomever you're responding to has a valid point that having a full season of Talib and Dennard outside with Arrington in the slot and McCourty at safety (none of which played together more than down the stretch/playoffs) is already an enormous change from last season. Having another year of experience for Tavon Wilson, along with the addition of Adrian Wilson, and the return of Dowling is icing on the cake at the moment.

We could potentially have at least 4-5 quality starters now for the 2 outside spots at CB, and that's just with what is on the roster today. Obviously there's an argument for both sides, so it may not be as clear cut as you'd think. Belichick passed on some incredible deals for extremely cheap prices with quality starters and vets in free agency, so he may be fine with throwing a mid/later round draft pick (or no pick at all) into the mix just as well. We certainly have other needs to address first, and could likely get by until next year for spending a high round pick on a CB again.

So, you think that Talib and Ras I are going to last for the whole year? I wouldn't doubt that Ras I is bye bye if he doesn't show anything in training camp. It needs to be addressed. Bottom line.

 

[Claremonster]

I agree with you on WR and DL. I think those are clearly the 2 weakest positions looking toward the future at the moment, and that we need to use our first 2 picks on these positions. I also think trading down/out of round 1 is a great idea this year. That would add an additional 2nd + a 4th.

I think the coverage LB need has been met with the return of Fletcher, and the addition of Adrian Wilson--who I assume Belichick has plans for it that role. If we add another coverage LB, it probably wouldn't be until a late rd flier or even UDFA, if at all. He may choose to add a vet too. It certainly doesn't have to be a draft pick though.

That basically leaves OL (which is always a need in my opinion--future wise) and a secondary pick at either CB or S.

There's certainly a very good chance that most of these needs are met, along with a surprise BPA choice or even two. Either way, the team didn't have too many needs at it was although they made it a bit interesting by deciding to cut Llyod too. I'm sure our draft will have an eye on the current and the future though.

Fletch is injury prone too.

 

[Claremonster]

It's yet another failing of the Patriots this offseason that the team didn't add a veteran corner. With players ranging from Grimes to Winfield available, the Patriots decided to stick with Mr. I.R. himself, Ras-I Dowling, and forego upgrading the position. Option one and Option two are both horse out of the barn type choices. One is wishful thinking (Option 1), the other is yet another desperate gamble that could have been avoided with better front office maneuvering (Option 2).

BB should be ashamed of himself. For real!

 

[Nunchucks]

Dropping Dowling but you like Talib? Little hypercritical don't you think? Giving one guy a pass for injuries and punishing another and add to that the guy who gets the pass has injuries that normally are caused by lack of conditioning.

Dowling had a major injury which takes many players 2 years to come back from. So many people rush to judgement in this forum lately and its always such a negative judgement which is even worse.

People were writing off Gerald McCoy down in Tampa Bay last offseason saying he was a bust and to cut him well he showed up for his year three and had a pro bowl year. But you are letting the 33rd pick in the 2011 draft go tomorrow.. Ok that's smart.

Talib actually played football last year. Dowling could be suffering from being away from the game too long. His body may not be in football shape, he may have lost any instincts he ever had. 2 years of not playing football is a big deal.

 

[Kontradiction]

It's yet another failing of the Patriots this offseason that the team didn't add a veteran corner. With players ranging from Grimes to Winfield available, the Patriots decided to stick with Mr. I.R. himself, Ras-I Dowling, and forego upgrading the position. Option one and Option two are both horse out of the barn type choices. One is wishful thinking (Option 1), the other is yet another desperate gamble that could have been avoided with better front office maneuvering (Option 2).

A CB stable of Grimes, Talib, and Dennard in the nickel role would have been excellent. Oh well.

 

[BTTA]

It's yet another failing of the Patriots this offseason that the team didn't add a veteran corner. With players ranging from Grimes to Winfield available, the Patriots decided to stick with Mr. I.R. himself, Ras-I Dowling, and forego upgrading the position. Option one and Option two are both horse out of the barn type choices. One is wishful thinking (Option 1), the other is yet another desperate gamble that could have been avoided with better front office maneuvering (Option 2).

To declare something a "failure of the Pats" at this point is silly. Have you ever worked inside an organization that approached the level of complexity and excellence of the Patriots? The issues, factors, knowledge, and awareness that they are working with are maybe visible to us at 2%. That's true about roster management, player evaluation at all levels, financial considerations, competitor intelligence, player health, player progress during the off season, player maturation, etc. Even the players who have been there and leave to become media commentators are left guessing and end up being wrong most of the time.

The idea that we can sit on the outside looking in and make judgments with the absolute certainty that you project, is preposterous. At best, we can wonder, be curious, have wishes and desires, be hopeful, and speculate.

 

[Deus Irae]

To declare something a "failure of the Pats" at this point is silly. Have you ever worked inside an organization that approached the level of complexity and excellence of the Patriots? The issues, factors, knowledge, and awareness that they are working with are maybe visible to us at 2%. That's true about roster management, player evaluation at all levels, financial considerations, competitor intelligence, player health, player progress during the off season, player maturation, etc. Even the players who have been there and leave to become media commentators are left guessing and end up being wrong most of the time.

The idea that we can sit on the outside looking in and make judgments with the absolute certainty that you project, is preposterous. At best, we can wonder, be curious, have wishes and desires, be hopeful, and speculate.

History shows otherwise.