Who will have a better career at ILB - Mayo or Spikes?

[Ring 6]

Alright...he may not average 7 sacks a year his WHOLE career - maybe more like 3-5 overall, but we need him to provide some pressure up the middle because we certainly are weak on the outside for this season anyway...his development in that department will be necessary in the front 7's success on slowing down QBs comfort levels in the pocket which were pretty high last year.

I dont know that ILB blitzes have ever been a huge part of our pass defnese. Certainly not in the base 3-4. If your expectations are for Spikes or anyone at ILB to bring a big pass rush out of the base D (1st down and some 2nd downs) then we would need a major philosophy shift.
I suppose it could happen from the sub, but I dont expect Spikes to be a big nickel/dime particpant. Usually we will either send a safety or bring an allout blitz or drop into coverage in those situations.
Bruschi was a very good blitzing ILB, and played in every situation, and he had 18.5 sacks in 9 years playing for BB, never getting 5 in a season and only getting 3 or more twice.
I think your expectations of Spikes are off the page. He cant get 3,5,7,8 sacks as a 3-4 ILB in this defense, because pretty much no one could.
If he does a really good job against the run, and earns any role at all in the sub package it would be a tremendous season for him.

 

[Ring 6]

Exactly. However, injuries derailed his career.

Another thing I wanted to point out is that Keith Rivers was actually doing better than Mayo "statistically" until Rivers took a cheap shot from Hines Ward that ended his season.

Come on. 10

 

[Ring 6]

In terms of what? Lofton is the better value by far.

I heard that other teams wanted Mayo and that is why the Pats took him right there.

Define value??????????

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

why is everyone throwing mayo under a bus? he was defensive ROY. he got hurt week 1 last year and was a shell of himself. he's healthy now, so let's see if he can produce. At the same time, Spikes has not even played an NFL game yet. This is a thread better left for the end of the season.

I'm just guessing there are some people on this board that are on the fence with Mayo. Being that he was taken 10th overall, you'd expect more out of him. Like you said, he's healthy now and in his 3rd year, let's see what he can do.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Come on. 10

What does that mean?

Define value??????????

Statistics or production. However, I know they don't tell the entire story as some people argued that James Laurenitis was terrible as a rooke even though his stats wouldn't indicate that.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I dont know that ILB blitzes have ever been a huge part of our pass defnese. Certainly not in the base 3-4. If your expectations are for Spikes or anyone at ILB to bring a big pass rush out of the base D (1st down and some 2nd downs) then we would need a major philosophy shift.
I suppose it could happen from the sub, but I dont expect Spikes to be a big nickel/dime particpant. Usually we will either send a safety or bring an allout blitz or drop into coverage in those situations.
Bruschi was a very good blitzing ILB, and played in every situation, and he had 18.5 sacks in 9 years playing for BB, never getting 5 in a season and only getting 3 or more twice.
I think your expectations of Spikes are off the page. He cant get 3,5,7,8 sacks as a 3-4 ILB in this defense, because pretty much no one could.
If he does a really good job against the run, and earns any role at all in the sub package it would be a tremendous season for him.

Agreed- I'd be thrilled if Mayo got to Bruschi's level of pass rushing. I don't care so much about the total as his ability to create pressure with some consistency when called upon to do so. Since he won't be called upon in that manner very frequently, sack total as a raw number isn't very relevant...

 

[Kontradiction]

I personally think that Jerod Spikes will have the better career.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Agreed- I'd be thrilled if Mayo got to Bruschi's level of pass rushing. I don't care so much about the total as his ability to create pressure with some consistency when called upon to do so. Since he won't be called upon in that manner very frequently, sack total as a raw number isn't very relevant...

I know you are going to say the past is the past and that means nothing but the fact remains that in all 4 of the Patriots Super Bowl appearances this decade - EVERY one of those defenses had AT LEAST 41 regular season 'irrlevant' sacks as a unit.

This team needs to make a QB tremble in the pocket again....like they used to 5 years ago.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I know you are going to say the past is the past and that means nothing but the fact remains that in all 4 of the Patriots Super Bowl appearances this decade - EVERY one of those defenses had AT LEAST 41 regular season 'irrlevant' sacks as a unit.

This team needs to make a QB tremble in the pocket again....like they used to 5 years ago.

And, as usual, you completely missed the point. Try again. I was talking about the sack total for one ILB, not the defense as a whole.

Pro-tip: raw sack total from ILB isn't a huge deal because you have no context: they're sent to blitz so rarely that they aren't going to amass a huge number no matter what, and you're dealing with a ridiculously small sample size. When you take the defense collectively, the sample size problem is diminished greatly.

 

[Calciumee]

I don't know but the fact we are discussing this is a good sign for the Pats defense!

The fact no-one has an answer is a good sign aswell

 

[Ring 6]

What does that mean?

Statistics or production. However, I know they don't tell the entire story as some people argued that James Laurenitis was terrible as a rooke even though his stats wouldn't indicate that.

Come on was to the lame Keith Rivers comment.

Please dont tell me that you want to rate LBs by statistics???????
Unless you uncover about 20 different layers from those stats they are useless.
Tackles are influenced by:
How long your D stays on the field, how often it is run against, what the quality of the players around you are, how the tackles are counted (it isnt universally equal), where the tackles were made (in 2002 vs the chargers when Bruschi went out Ted Johnson got DESTROYED in the middle. He ended up with 13 tackles that led to comments like TJ is back, who needs Bruschi etc. Someone went to the tape and on top of watching TJ get blwon 5 yards back every time, they added up that his tackles came on runs that averaged 9 yards gained per play.....he was getting credit for tackles when they ran right at him, pushed him back and he jumped on the guy to help the safety after 12 yards) and a bunch of other factors, including the system they play in. Ours in fact could be argued as one that creates fewer tackles for good players. Our system assigns players to an area of the field. NO ONE has free reign to run to the ball in our base D. If you have a lot of tackles in the running game it often indicates they are running at you because you are a mismatch. Mayo really, by the design of the defense cannot make tackles off side unlsss the players at the point of attack screw up. He cannot leave his area until the cutback is ruled out. It is nothing like a 43 MLB who reads the play and runs to the point of attack.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Come on was to the lame Keith Rivers comment.

Please dont tell me that you want to rate LBs by statistics???????
Unless you uncover about 20 different layers from those stats they are useless.
Tackles are influenced by:
How long your D stays on the field, how often it is run against, what the quality of the players around you are, how the tackles are counted (it isnt universally equal), where the tackles were made (in 2002 vs the chargers when Bruschi went out Ted Johnson got DESTROYED in the middle. He ended up with 13 tackles that led to comments like TJ is back, who needs Bruschi etc. Someone went to the tape and on top of watching TJ get blwon 5 yards back every time, they added up that his tackles came on runs that averaged 9 yards gained per play.....he was getting credit for tackles when they ran right at him, pushed him back and he jumped on the guy to help the safety after 12 yards) and a bunch of other factors, including the system they play in. Ours in fact could be argued as one that creates fewer tackles for good players. Our system assigns players to an area of the field. NO ONE has free reign to run to the ball in our base D. If you have a lot of tackles in the running game it often indicates they are running at you because you are a mismatch. Mayo really, by the design of the defense cannot make tackles off side unlsss the players at the point of attack screw up. He cannot leave his area until the cutback is ruled out. It is nothing like a 43 MLB who reads the play and runs to the point of attack.

First, Keith Rivers was actually the front runner until he got injured.

Second, that's why I said stats don't tell the entire story.

What I'm trying to say is that the Falcons received better value for their system.

 

[Ring 6]

First, Keith Rivers was actually the front runner until he got injured.

Second, that's why I said stats don't tell the entire story.

What I'm trying to say is that the Falcons received better value for their system.

Keith Rivers played 7 games for an 0-7 team. What are you talking about?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You are using stats for your argument.

Lofton is no way as good a LB as Mayo. It isnt even closer. Mayo would be better in their system Lofton couldn't survive in ours. Its not even debatable. The only reason you bring it up is that you are down on Mayo for some reason, so you look at other LBs drafted and say they are better value.
Real truth, how many of Loftons 32 games with the Falcons have you watched???????? Keeping in mind the Pats played 2 days ago, were rebroadcast on NFLN and you said earlier you have only seen highlights.

 

[BradyFTW!]

First, Keith Rivers was actually the front runner until he got injured.

Second, that's why I said stats don't tell the entire story.

What I'm trying to say is that the Falcons received better value for their system.

Even if your assertion re: Lofton is true, what would you have had the Pats do? They tried to trade down further and apparently couldn't. Might as well knock them for not drafting Jake Long. They got the best value that they could at the lowest position that they could get to.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Keith Rivers played 7 games for an 0-7 team. What are you talking about?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You are using stats for your argument.

Because that's what people go by when they vote. It's the same exact reason why Charles Woodson won DPOY when Revis should've won.

Lofton is no way as good a LB as Mayo. It isnt even closer. Mayo would be better in their system Lofton couldn't survive in ours. Its not even debatable.

I never said Lofton is better. However, they didn't have to burn the 10th overall pick to get a serviceable LB for their system. That is basically what Mayo is to New England right now. I just don't understand why NE would burn such a high pick when you don't give that player much responsibilities.

The only reason you bring it up is that you are down on Mayo for some reason, so you look at other LBs drafted and say they are better value.
Real truth, how many of Loftons 32 games with the Falcons have you watched???????? Keeping in mind the Pats played 2 days ago, were rebroadcast on NFLN and you said earlier you have only seen highlights.

I'll admit, the only Falcons games I've watched were against New England last year. And again, I never said Lofton was/is better than Mayo. I'm talking about value for their system.

Even if your assertion re: Lofton is true, what would you have had the Pats do? They tried to trade down further and apparently couldn't. Might as well knock them for not drafting Jake Long. They got the best value that they could at the lowest position that they could get to.

I heard they had to take Mayo right there because other teams were targeting him.

What would I do? Because of Brady's injury and the beating Cassel took in '08, I would've taken O-line.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Spikes is more physical and the better against the run. Mayo is better at chasing players. They both have different styles and skill sets so it's hard to say. However, Spikes will end up being the better value as I still think Mayo was taken too high (and no I don't care that other team wanted him in the 1st round in 2008).

Good point.

Also Mayo has not 'dominated' any situation lately...likely he bounces back just fine from a injury plagued year, but besides being quick to the ball, he has not really dominated against guards, or in pass rush, or in big plays. Again this could change, and he is a great talent.

Spikes appears to dominate everything in his path. Perhaps this is simply preseason hype...but there it is.

 

[stinkypete]

Good point.

Also Mayo has not 'dominated' any situation lately...likely he bounces back just fine from a injury plagued year, but besides being quick to the ball, he has not really dominated against guards, or in pass rush, or in big plays. Again this could change, and he is a great talent.

Spikes appears to dominate everything in his path. Perhaps this is simply preseason hype...but there it is.

Don't forget the knocks, Spikes tends to play too emotional. If he keeps up this habit in the pros he will miss assignments, whiff on tackles and blow plays. Not to change my tune on Spikes, I'm as thrilled about him as I've been about any rookie since Wilfork, but you have to look at the complete player, not just the highlight reels.

 

[vattha]

What would I do? Because of Brady's injury and the beating Cassel took in '08, I would've taken O-line.

Uh.. so you expected the patriots to be psychic?