Who Were Last Year's Gunners

[Yawkey Way]

i would assume Slater would get first priority in the KR game, no?

 

[mgteich]

We have Welker and Edelman as punt returners.
We have Maroney and Faulk as kick returners.

IMHO, Slater has never looked good as a returner.

 

[mgteich]

You speak as if you just take a player, teach him the position, and have him be a NFL level player at the position.

Slater is an excellent option at the most important position on the defensive special teams. The question is who is at least as good as he is at the position. I haven't followed the position this preseason and I don't recall who played the position last year. That's why I asked. My GUESS is that McGowan and Butler are gunners.

Belichick has always been willing keep a couple of defensive special teamers who would be expected to have very few reps elsewhere. In addition the 4th, 5th and 6th wide receivers also get their reps primarily on special teams (sometimes as returners).

Slater and Butler/Chung will probably be first choice for Gunner, Wheatley and Lewis are options.

 

[signbabybrady]

Slater is an excellent option at the most important position on the defensive special teams. The question is who is at least as good as he is at the position. I haven't followed the position this preseason and I don't recall who played the position last year. That's why I asked. My GUESS is that McGowan and Butler are gunners.

I have watched slater a bunch when I was at camp this year and he is clearly our best gunner. I watched him and he always seemed to beat his guy or even guys when he was double teamed.

For me his making this team isn't about how good a STer he is because he seems to be really good but how good a STer/regular defender is the guy who would replace him. For example McGowan who is clearly the better regular defender could take his spot on the roster if he is close to as good on STs. (not saying that McGowans spot relys on beating out slater just using him as an example)

I think Slater will make it.

 

[mgteich]

As of now, it seems that Slater is a better use of a roster spot than Crable, who seems to headed for the IR.

For me McGowan is a lock since he not only is a fine special teams player, but could start at either of the safety spots in case of injury. He wins the #4 safety roster spot. Slater is often listed as the #5.

I have watched slater a bunch when I was at camp this year and he is clearly our best gunner. I watched him and he always seemed to beat his guy or even guys when he was double teamed.

For me his making this team isn't about how good a STer he is because he seems to be really good but how good a STer/regular defender is the guy who would replace him. For example McGowan who is clearly the better regular defender could take his spot on the roster if he is close to as good on STs. (not saying that McGowans spot relys on beating out slater just using him as an example)

I think Slater will make it.

 

[signbabybrady]

As of now, it seems that Slater is a better use of a roster spot than Crable, who seems to headed for the IR.

For me McGowan is a lock since he not only is a fine special teams player, but could start at either of the safety spots in case of injury. He wins the #4 safety roster spot. Slater is often listed as the #5.

I agree with both statements....I was just using McGowan as an example...not sure about IR for crable though.

 

[patriot lifer]

...not sure about IR for crable though.

reading the tea leaves (missing practices and in-game reps), this is a definite possibility

 

[signbabybrady]

reading the tea leaves (missing practices and in-game reps), this is a definite possibility

I don't see another year on IR doing anything but stunting his growth more....Also a little sore is what BB said so not sure if his injury is that bad. IR is certainly a possibility but I think we would rather have him as an option at some point than lose him for the season if he cant make the 53 than so be it.

 

[mayoclinic]

As of now, it seems that Slater is a better use of a roster spot than Crable, who seems to headed for the IR.

For me McGowan is a lock since he not only is a fine special teams player, but could start at either of the safety spots in case of injury. He wins the #4 safety roster spot. Slater is often listed as the #5.

In the thread about the 53 man roster, you argued that we needed 9 OLs (as opposed to 8 OLs and 5 RBs) and 9 LBs (as opposed to 8 LBs and an extra spot going to a STer like Slater), even if it meant Alexander and Ninkovich filling the last 2 spots if Crable and Lenon were injured. Are you changing your position?

 

[patchick]

As of now, it seems that Slater is a better use of a roster spot than Crable, who seems to headed for the IR.

But in your post suggesting this fate for Crable, didn't you give Ninkovich his spot?

 

[mayoclinic]

I'm guessing that SBB accidentally typed Aiken instead of Washington (Aiken spent 2008 on IR). So Slater would be it, except...wasn't McGowan a gunner against the Bengals?

I don't think Aiken spent 2008 on IR. He was credited with 10 ST tackles last year. It would quite a feat to do that while on IR.

 

[patriot lifer]

I don't see another year on IR doing anything but stunting his growth more....Also a little sore is what BB said so not sure if his injury is that bad. IR is certainly a possibility but I think we would rather have him as an option at some point than lose him for the season if he cant make the 53 than so be it.

i can't help but think of David Thomas when he had that foot injury and started the season (2007?). needless to say, he ended up on IR. it's not so much the question of would it help. it's more of a hunch that we're waiting for the day that never comes, just like when we we were crossing our fingers on David Thomas. i think we all assumed that he was coming back to play but sure enough we lost him for the season.

So it's more of a hunch than anything else that he'll be placed on IR. i don't want it either but...we'll see.

 

[mgteich]

There were three open spots.

ONE - 5th RB or 4th OT
One belongs to either O'Callaghan depending on the exent of the injury to Morris.

TWO - gunner
Based on the discussions, I finally agree that Slater is our top gunner, a solid contributer on other special teams, and likely to make the roster.

THREE - linebacker
I used to have two linebacker positions in the last three. Now I have only one. The choice is now between Ninkovitch, Alexander, Lenon and Crable. I still think the best choice is Lenon who can replace Bruschi on the active roster in the games when he is injured during the season. That would edge out Ninkovitch who would likely be on the Practice Squad. Crable would go to the IR. Alexander is NOW on the roster unless Belichick is convinced that Lenon should get the roster spot. Obviously this roster spot depends on the status of the injuries.

But in your post suggesting this fate for Crable, didn't you give Ninkovich his spot?

 

[mayoclinic]

There were three open spots.

ONE - 5th RB or 4th OT
One belongs to either O'Callaghan depending on the exent of the injury to Morris.

TWO - gunner
Based on the discussions, I finally agree that Slater is our top gunner, a solid contributer on other special teams, and likely to make the roster.

THREE - linebacker
I used to have two linebacker positions in the last three. Now I have only one. The choice is now between Ninkovitch, Alexander, Lenon and Crable. I still think the best choice is Lenon who can replace Bruschi on the active roster in the games when he is injured during the season. That would edge out Ninkovitch who would likely be on the Practice Squad. Crable would go to the IR. Alexander is NOW on the roster unless Belichick is convinced that Lenon should get the roster spot. Obviously this roster spot depends on the status of the injuries.

I prefer your previous assessment - one OL (O'Callaghan looking to be in the lead for that spot) and 2 LBs.

I really don't see Crable going on IR unless he has a major injury - IR 2 years in a row would probably be tantamount to giving up on him. He needs playing time - at least in practice - to develop. And I'm personally not comfortable with Bruschi as our sole ILB backup. I think Lenon is a lock to make the 53 unless he goes on IR, in which case Alexander and Ninkovitch can fight it out.

I just haven't seen any evidence last year or in the PS that Slater is a special teams wizard far above and beyond what anyone else can bring to the team. He certainly brings minimal value except as a STer. He's certainly not anything special as a returner. He may be a capable gunner, but there are a lot of players that can fill that role. That's not enough for me to warrant a roster spot, and personally I'd rather see Chung or McGowan at gunner opposite Aiken than Slater.

 

[mgteich]

We don't disagree as much as you suggest.

OL/RB
I strongly prefer O'Callaghan, but could see BJGE if Morris is projected to be out for the first month of the season. Do you disagree? In any case, O'Callaghan would not be expected to be on the roster in Week 6.

LB/ST
We both strongly prefer Lenon, even if he is a bit nicked. There aren't many of us (perhaps patchick also). Lenon is a much better option than anyone when Bruschi is injured during the season. We differ on the second choice if Lenon is too injured to risk a roster spot. You prefer Ninkovitch. I'd keep Alexander and expect Ninkovitch to make the Practice Squad.

Player 53
We don't know how serious Crable's injury is. I disagree that a second IR season means giving up on Crable. He would be an inexpensive prospect in 2010 and in 2011. We have a couple of players who have been injured several times still on the roster: Wendy, O'Callaghan and Maroney come to mind.

Another question is whether gunner is a real position or whether you can take any fast defensive player and train him to be a top gunner. I think that gunner is a real position. The OPEN question is whether Aiken and McGowan are our gunners. In any case, Slater has been a key part of all the special teams units since he came to the team. Perhaps there is room for such a specialist on the squad.

I would be fine if Crable is healthy and ready to go. A healthy developmental player is a better roster choice than Slater. However, the OPEN question is the extent of Crable's injuries. My suspicion is that Reiss knows more about Crable's injury than we do.

I prefer your previous assessment - one OL (O'Callaghan looking to be in the lead for that spot) and 2 LBs.

I really don't see Crable going on IR unless he has a major injury - IR 2 years in a row would probably be tantamount to giving up on him. He needs playing time - at least in practice - to develop. And I'm personally not comfortable with Bruschi as our sole ILB backup. I think Lenon is a lock to make the 53 unless he goes on IR, in which case Alexander and Ninkovitch can fight it out.

I just haven't seen any evidence last year or in the PS that Slater is a special teams wizard far above and beyond what anyone else can bring to the team. He certainly brings minimal value except as a STer. He's certainly not anything special as a returner. He may be a capable gunner, but there are a lot of players that can fill that role. That's not enough for me to warrant a roster spot, and personally I'd rather see Chung or McGowan at gunner opposite Aiken than Slater.

 

[mayoclinic]

We don't disagree as much as you suggest.

OL/RB
I strongly prefer O'Callaghan, but could see BJGE if Morris is projected to be out for the first month of the season. Do you disagree? In any case, O'Callaghan would not be expected to be on the roster in Week 6.

LB/ST
We both strongly prefer Lenon, even if he is a bit nicked. There aren't many of us (perhaps patchick also). Lenon is a much better option than anyone when Bruschi is injured during the season. We differ on the second choice if Lenon is too injured to risk a roster spot. You prefer Ninkovitch. I'd keep Alexander and expect Ninkovitch to make the Practice Squad.

Player 53
We don't know how serious Crable's injury is. I disagree that a second IR season means giving up on Crable. He would be an inexpensive prospect in 2010 and in 2011. We have a couple of players who have been injured several times still on the roster: Wendy, O'Callaghan and Maroney come to mind.

Another question is whether gunner is a real position or whether you can take any fast defensive player and train him to be a top gunner. I think that gunner is a real position. The OPEN question is whether Aiken and McGowan are our gunners. In any case, Slater has been a key part of all the special teams units since he came to the team. Perhaps there is room for such a specialist on the squad.

I would be fine if Crable is healthy and ready to go. A healthy developmental player is a better roster choice than Slater. However, the OPEN question is the extent of Crable's injuries. My suspicion is that Reiss knows more about Crable's injury than we do.

I don't think we disagree much, and I have a lot of respect for your insights. I was in complete agreement with your previous assessment. I'm mainly curious, because your posts today suggest that you've come to the conclusion that Slater is suddenly some irreplaceable ST demon, whereas I see him mainly as a JAG with decent (but easily replacement) ST value.

It's also interesting to me that there's been almost no discussion of Ventrone as a ST specialist. Has Slater pretty much separated himself from Ventrone in people's eyes? Or is it because Ventrone's potential as a slot receiver has been diminished now that Edelman is the flavor du jour?

 

[mgteich]

I prefer Aiken and Lewis as receivers ahead of Ventrone. The reality is that I have Edelman as our #6 receiver warming Tate's roster spot.

I really do not have a strong opinion of the best use of the 53rd roster spot. This week I choose Slater. As I posted last week, the 53rd player may come from another team.

What has become clearer in my mind is the need for a 4th ILB. I choose Lenon, even if he injured, although Alexander may end up with the spot if the injury is too severe.

With regard to Slater, he has always been a solid special teams player as a returner, gunner, and special teams tackler. Some think that he can actually play safety (a silly idea). It is the continued injuries to our #5 OLB that opens the roster spot where I put Slater).

I don't think we disagree much, and I have a lot of respect for your insights. I was in complete agreement with your previous assessment. I'm mainly curious, because your posts today suggest that you've come to the conclusion that Slater is suddenly some irreplaceable ST demon, whereas I see him mainly as a JAG with decent (but easily replacement) ST value.

It's also interesting to me that there's been almost no discussion of Ventrone as a ST specialist. Has Slater pretty much separated himself from Ventrone in people's eyes? Or is it because Ventrone's potential as a slot receiver has been diminished now that Edelman is the flavor du jour?

 

[bucky]

Washington was one of the gunners on the 10 games or so that he was active, and he was pretty good at it. I believe Spann was the other gunner when he was on the roster - which appears to be the last 10 games. Not sure who else played the position, but I don't think it was Slater. Could have been Wilhite or Richardson. I believe Slater player the "personal protector" role last year - which is the guy in the backfield closest to the punter. It's the role Izzo played most of his career, but last year Izzo was on the line, if memory server.

Wheatley, BTW, didn't play special teams last year. Which I thought was odd, but he must not have been very good at it. For that very reason, I can't see him doing it this year either.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

You speak as if you just take a player, teach him the position, and have him be a NFL level player at the position.

Slater is an excellent option at the most important position on the defensive special teams. The question is who is at least as good as he is at the position. I haven't followed the position this preseason and I don't recall who played the position last year. That's why I asked. My GUESS is that McGowan and Butler are gunners.

Belichick has always been willing keep a couple of defensive special teamers who would be expected to have very few reps elsewhere. In addition the 4th, 5th and 6th wide receivers also get their reps primarily on special teams (sometimes as returners).

What did I type that got you all defensive? Sheesh, you'd think I kicked you dog and petted your wife.

 

[signbabybrady]

I'm mainly curious, because your posts today suggest that you've come to the conclusion that Slater is suddenly some irreplaceable ST demon, whereas I see him mainly as a JAG with decent (but easily replacement) ST value.

As a regular defender right now I would consider him less than a JAG I would consider him a non entity but he id much more than a decent STer. He is one of our top two STers, he is a Core STs guy playing on mostly all STs units, he was 2nd in STs tackles as a rookie, he is a really good lead blocker on KR, and although he was scary with the ball in his hands as a rookie there is still potential for him to be a good returner.

I think this team is really deep and he could be one of many tough cuts but if it happens it wont be because he just a decent STer because he is really good there, it would just be a numbers crunch and some other team would be really thrilled to get him.

IMO he makes this team.