Who is the first Patriot with a Patriots SB ring to get inducted into the HOF

[MoLewisrocks]

I am a Patriots fan and I have no desire to see Drew Bledsoe in the HoF - because I'm a football fan as well and he just isn't HoF worthy. Let's not drag the Hall down by putting in people whose main claim to fame is accumulating statistics rather than being the best. Drew was very good at times, but was never (IMO) consistently in the top 3 QBs in the NFL. That's the type of dominance you should have in order to justify a space in the HoF.

Thank you for stating what should be obvious.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Who is the first Patriot with a Patriot SB ring to get inducted into the HOF

,,,I'll throw another name that I haven't seen so far but which I think has a great chance at induction eventually: Bob Kraft. I think he has been at the heart of much of what has made the league thrive these past 15 or so years. I don't know what criteria the HOF voters consider regarding owners (I for one don't understand what put Ralph Wilson over the top, no disrespect to the man intended), but when you consider how much Kraft has accomplished for both his own franchise and for the league's bottom line, you'd have to think that he compares favorably to just about any other owner at this point.

Well, let's look at the Owners who are in Canton.

Lamar Hunt: also co-founder of the AFL
Tim and Wellington Mara: Founders of a team, part of the reason the NFL survived its early days
Dan and Art Rooney: Team founder and son, like the Mara's part of the reason the league is around
Preston Marshall: Team founder
Dan Reeves: "only" an owner, but took the NFL to the West Coast
Al Davis: Commissioner of the AFL and part of the reason the leagues merged, no matter how insane he is today
Bert Bell: arguably, along with Pete Rozelle, the father of the modern NFL
Curly Lambeau: team founder and a founder of the nfl
Tex Schramm: his Cowboys defined the NFL for many years; major force behind the SB era
George Halas: I'd call him the father of the NFL

The only owner I don't understand for his presence in the HOF is Ralph Wilson, Jr. True, he played a big role in the first huge AFL/NFL TV contract, but beyond that, I didn't get it.

So, aside from Wilson, I have a hard time putting Kraft TODAY in the company of those who are already in the HOF as owners. Let's see how things pan out with himself and Jonathan over the next decade or so. If the Patriots persist as a power after the departures of TB and BB, I think then you can build a case.

 

[fillylabinga]

Re: Who is the first Patriot with a Patriot SB ring to get inducted into the HOF

I disagree.... Curtis Martin is not a lock by any stretch. He's up this year with Bettis and Faulk (a Media butt boy), both of who will go before him (IMO). Possibly he gets in on 2012 (a weaker year), but it depends who else is there. His numbers are okay, but he also had ALOT of carries (4.0 ypa career), but he suffers from a bottleneck of good players in the next year or two AND has no ring.

Dillon has WAY Better numbers then ANY of your comparisons (George, Holmes, Alexander). Of those three, only George even has 10,000 rushing yards (and George barely). Corey is at 11,250 (way above them). All played about the same amount of time but Dillon was by far more consistent then those other three with 7/10 1000 yd seasons, and 4/10 probowls. AND ONE RING. Thanks just my opinion though

They may be the same in your mind, but on paper, they aren't that close. Dillon's numbers are somewhat suppressed too in that he was only a 10 year guy and has significantly less carries then the top guys at 2618. If you look at it from a Statistical POV, he is more similar to THESE PLAYERS (quite a few of whom already are in the HoF).

"Lock" is too strong a word for Curtis Martin, but I do think he'll get in. I'll buy that Faulk goes first and Bettis is right behind him, but Martin will be next. His numbers are better than okay--4th in rushing and 6th in YDS from scrimmage (he was an underrated pass catcher). Personally, I think Martin has a better case than Bettis only Bettis has a media job and a cool nickname.

But back to Dillon, those guys plus Tiki Barber, who will also be eligible around the same time, would all have to be considered for the HOF before Dillon. The bottleneck you mention hurts Dillon more than Martin.

And while I don't agree that Dillon has *way* better numbers than RBs like Holmes and George my point is just that those guys are arguably just as viable as HOF candidates as Dillon. For instance, Holmes doesn't have great career numbers, but he had that 2-3 year stretch where he was the best in the game. (Of course, that argument didn't work for Terrell Davis and it won't work for Holmes).

Anyway, cutting to the chase, I understand that you like Dillon better than those other guys but are you actually saying that he *will* make the HOF?

Good debate.

 

[zeke mowatt]

Thank you for stating what should be obvious.

Obvious huh????

You better take a long look at some of the QBs already in. Bledsoe was superior to some of them.

By the way, your psueudo is complete douchebaggery. Like to find out the name of the dude who kicked the ***** out of you and use it for my own.

***wipe.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Re: Who is the first Patriot with a Patriot SB ring to get inducted into the HOF

"Lock" is too strong a word for Curtis Martin, but I do think he'll get in. I'll buy that Faulk goes first and Bettis is right behind him, but Martin will be next. His numbers are better than okay--4th in rushing and 6th in YDS from scrimmage (he was an underrated pass catcher). Personally, I think Martin has a better case than Bettis only Bettis has a media job and a cool nickname.

But back to Dillon, those guys plus Tiki Barber, who will also be eligible around the same time, would all have to be considered for the HOF before Dillon. The bottleneck you mention hurts Dillon more than Martin.

And while I don't agree that Dillon has *way* better numbers than RBs like Holmes and George my point is just that those guys are arguably just as viable as HOF candidates as Dillon. For instance, Holmes doesn't have great career numbers, but he had that 2-3 year stretch where he was the best in the game. (Of course, that argument didn't work for Terrell Davis and it won't work for Holmes).

Anyway, cutting to the chase, I understand that you like Dillon better than those other guys but are you actually saying that he *will* make the HOF?

Good debate.

We're pretty much in agreement about Martin I think. He stands at about 60/40 in my book. Not a lock, but there's bound to be a slow year in the next few where he might get consideration. He also was, IMO, not very dynamic as a player. He got yards, they just weren't "sexy yards".

As for Dillon. I do like the guy.... and followed him his whole career. But I can certainly look objectively. Dillon was a pretty dynamic back for a long time. He had the misfortune of playing on the dreadful Bengals, but he was very special in his day.

He broke Single game rushing records (Regular and Rookie) on separate occasions and took them from the likes of W. Payton and J. Brown. Now that won't enter into voting perhaps, but it's a pretty good indicator of how explosive he could be. In his prime (which was before he was in NE), the dude was as explosive as anyone.

Plus, he is CERTAINLY a level up from Holmes, Alexander and George. Both in total yards, 1,000 yd seasons, ypa, longevity (in some cases). His 4.4 is very solid and he really is only 17th in total yards all time cuz he had less attempts. As someone said (perhaps it was you). Had he been in NE in 2003 and had an even remotely close year to the one he had in 2004 (his last year in Cinci was his worst). He' have another 700-800 yds (which would put him in the "magic" 12k bracket) and another ring. He'd have a very strong case.

As it stands, his 10 year numbers are on par with Bettis (who most consider a lock). He's got his ring and his numbers could make a solid case. But as someone said.......... Who'd make that case for him. He was't media friendly and that will hurt him.

In the end. He might not make it in the "popularity" contest aspect, but on the merits of his career, one could build a pretty good case. Certainly, he's considered a bubble guy. People with lesser stats have gotten in though.

p.s I don't think Tiki will make it.... or shouldn't. Just doesn't have the longevity. He was a great back though.

 

[signbabybrady]

Obvious huh????

You better take a long look at some of the QBs already in. Bledsoe was superior to some of them.

By the way, your psueudo is complete douchebaggery. Like to find out the name of the dude who kicked the ***** out of you and use it for my own.

***wipe.

define irony.







For the record I like them both.

 

[patsfan-1982]

Re: Who is the first Patriot with a Patriot SB ring to get inducted into the HOF

I disagree.... Curtis Martin is not a lock by any stretch. He's up this year with Bettis and Faulk (a Media butt boy), both of who will go before him (IMO). Possibly he gets in on 2012 (a weaker year), but it depends who else is there. His numbers are okay, but he also had ALOT of carries (4.0 ypa career), but he suffers from a bottleneck of good players in the next year or two AND has no ring.

Dillon has WAY Better numbers then ANY of your comparisons (George, Holmes, Alexander). Of those three, only George even has 10,000 rushing yards (and George barely). Corey is at 11,250 (way above them). All played about the same amount of time but Dillon was by far more consistent then those other three with 7/10 1000 yd seasons, and 4/10 probowls. AND ONE RING. Thanks just my opinion though

They may be the same in your mind, but on paper, they aren't that close. Dillon's numbers are somewhat suppressed too in that he was only a 10 year guy and has significantly less carries then the top guys at 2618. If you look at it from a Statistical POV, he is more similar to THESE PLAYERS (quite a few of whom already are in the HoF).

i agree Curtis Martin has said befor that he never loved the game of football he never won a ring and he was not a out going guy like bettis, and Faulk, and he only has a few 100 yards more then bettis, and 4 less TD's


Curtis Martin, wont get in next year but some day he will be in there.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Obvious huh????

You better take a long look at some of the QBs already in. Bledsoe was superior to some of them.

By the way, your psueudo is complete douchebaggery. Like to find out the name of the dude who kicked the ***** out of you and use it for my own.

***wipe.

Only because you're comparing across eras without adjustment. Look at the whole of his career, and Bledsoe wasn't even one of the best QBs of his era, let alone all time. On one side of his career, he's bound to be overshadowed by Favre, Young, Aikman, Marino, Elway, etc. On the other side of his career, he's clearly outperformed by Brady, Manning, Brees, Warner, etc. Realistically, Bledsoe was a hell of a player, but he wasn't even a top 10 QB in his own era. I'll be absolutely shocked if he ever makes the HOF.

 

[efin98]

Only because you're comparing across eras without adjustment. Look at the whole of his career, and Bledsoe wasn't even one of the best QBs of his era, let alone all time. On one side of his career, he's bound to be overshadowed by Favre, Young, Aikman, Marino, Elway, etc. On the other side of his career, he's clearly outperformed by Brady, Manning, Brees, Warner, etc. Realistically, Bledsoe was a hell of a player, but he wasn't even a top 10 QB in his own era. I'll be absolutely shocked if he ever makes the HOF.

Putting it that way it sounds like his best hope is the veterans committee...

 

[goheels22002]

Re: Who is the first Patriot with a Patriot SB ring to get inducted into the HOF

Oh man, we've had threads on this that have gone on for hundreds of comments and I don't want to be part of hijacking this into another "Drew" thread. But, to answer your question, Awesome? Yes. Awesome enough to get him into Canton without a ring of his own (XXXVI was Tommy's) when guys like P. Simms, Theismann and Testaverde aren't there? No.

Comparing Drew Bledsoe to Simms, Theismann and Testaverde is a good way to look at his HOF chances. Frankly, I was surprised that Phil Simms is not in. His numbers are solid and he ran an offense designed to eat clock and keep that NYG defense off the field long enough to stay ferocious. Simms should definitely be in.

Theismann and Testaverde do not have Drew's QB numbers nor were they the key reason their teams made it to the SB as was the case with Drew in 1996. Theissman, in particular, was the benficiary of an offensive team assembled around a spectacular O-line and still amazing running attack. The Counter Trey was like Mariano Rivera's cutter - you know it's coming and you still can't do anything about it. Theismmann always struck me as a poor man's Bob Griese.

I agree that Bledsoe is a borderline SB consideration but he's got the goods objectively and was an exemplary team player in NE, Buffalo and Dallas in some very tough and very public circumstances. The voters will give him points for that

As for your following post, Curtis Martin did not win a SB with the Pats but was a key to 1996 and without him the Jets Suck Thread wouldn't be nearly as long and acrimonious. I say he gets in for all he did to teach us how much the Jets suck. Maybe that ought to be #1 criteria - to what extent did the player, coach or owner, over the life of his career, contribute to the Jets sucking? Vinny gets a few bonus Jets Suck points.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Who is the first Patriot with a Patriot SB ring to get inducted into the HOF

Comparing Drew Bledsoe to Simms, Theismann and Testaverde is a good way to look at his HOF chances. Frankly, I was surprised that Phil Simms is not in. His numbers are solid and he ran an offense designed to eat clock and keep that NYG defense off the field long enough to stay ferocious. Simms should definitely be in.

Theismann and Testaverde do not have Drew's QB numbers nor were they the key reason their teams made it to the SB as was the case with Drew in 1996. Theissman, in particular, was the benficiary of an offensive team assembled around a spectacular O-line and still amazing running attack. The Counter Trey was like Mariano Rivera's cutter - you know it's coming and you still can't do anything about it. Theismmann always struck me as a poor man's Bob Griese.

I agree that Bledsoe is a borderline SB consideration but he's got the goods objectively and was an exemplary team player in NE, Buffalo and Dallas in some very tough and very public circumstances. The voters will give him points for that

As for your following post, Curtis Martin did not win a SB with the Pats but was a key to 1996 and without him the Jets Suck Thread wouldn't be nearly as long and acrimonious. I say he gets in for all he did to teach us how much the Jets suck. Maybe that ought to be #1 criteria - to what extent did the player, coach or owner, over the life of his career, contribute to the Jets sucking? Vinny gets a few bonus Jets Suck points.

Child, pahleeese...

Tuna (for his player selection although he was 21-22 in his and Drew's first three seasons here) and more specifically his assistant HC (for what he got out of that defense in his one season here) were the key reasons the 1996 Patriots made it to that SB. Drew was never an exemplery player here, let alone in Buffalo and Dallas where he was canned essentially for insubordination as much as inefficiency. He butted heads with every coaching staff he ever played for. He never worked at his craft, except in anger for the first six months after Bill traded him to Buffalo.

Drew Bledsoe 1996 Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[goheels22002]

Re: Who is the first Patriot with a Patriot SB ring to get inducted into the HOF

Child, pahleeese...

Tuna (for his player selection although he was 21-22 in his and Drew's first three seasons here) and more specifically his assistant HC (for what he got out of that defense in his one season here) were the key reasons the 1996 Patriots made it to that SB. Drew was never an exemplery player here, let alone in Buffalo and Dallas where he was canned essentially for insubordination as much as inefficiency. He butted heads with every coaching staff he ever played for. He never worked at his craft, except in anger for the first six months after Bill traded him to Buffalo.

Drew Bledsoe 1996 Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

The Tuna? This is about who gets into the HOF first that has a Patriots SB ring. Tuna ain't got one and never played a down for the Patriots. You're making my point. The Tuna and his staff did a great job assembling the '96 SB team and Bledsoe was the right guy with the right skill set to make that offense work.

The Tuna makes the Super Bowl with two QBs, right? Simms and Bledsoe.

Bledsoe gets huge credit for the way he dealt with Brady keeping the job after he recovered from the Mo Lewis hit (another Jet low-light).

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Who is the first Patriot with a Patriot SB ring to get inducted into the HOF

The Tuna? This is about who gets into the HOF first that has a Patriots SB ring. Tuna ain't got one and never played a down for the Patriots. You're making my point. The Tuna and his staff did a great job assembling the '96 SB team and Bledsoe was the right guy with the right skill set to make that offense work.

The Tuna makes the Super Bowl with two QBs, right? Simms and Bledsoe.

Bledsoe gets huge credit for the way he dealt with Brady keeping the job after he recovered from the Mo Lewis hit (another Jet low-light).

Empty yardage aside, his stat lines for that season and particularly the playoffs that season belie your comical contention... And we all know now that behind the scenes in 2001 he didn't deal with the situation nearly as well as his media toadies portrayed it. While he only had a couple of public outbursts, behind the scenes he made life uncomfortable at best.

 

[zeke mowatt]

Re: Who is the first Patriot with a Patriot SB ring to get inducted into the HOF

Child, pahleeese...

Tuna (for his player selection although he was 21-22 in his and Drew's first three seasons here) and more specifically his assistant HC (for what he got out of that defense in his one season here) were the key reasons the 1996 Patriots made it to that SB. Drew was never an exemplery player here, let alone in Buffalo and Dallas where he was canned essentially for insubordination as much as inefficiency. He butted heads with every coaching staff he ever played for. He never worked at his craft, except in anger for the first six months after Bill traded him to Buffalo.

Drew Bledsoe 1996 Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Your a hater, plain and simple. Most of what your saying here is complete bull-*****.

Dudes like you who bash on Bledsoe were not around to see what preceded him. You have no clue what it's REALLY like to have poor QB talent cuz all you've ever seen are Brady and Bledsoe. Think about that for a minuete, the patriots have been beyond fortunate to be blessed with theses guys back to back, Think about how many teams in this league chase QBs year after year after year...................

Patriots were damn lucky to get him....the timing was critical. If they had taken Mirer instead you'd be rooting for the St. Louis Patriots. His contributions here were huge and it stuns me how quickly some people are to dismiss them.

HOF.......? Maybe not.
One of the best/most important players in franchise history......? Absolutely.

 

[zeke mowatt]

27 touchdowns. 15 int. 83.7 passer rating.


Yeah, that sucks.



I could forget the "Meaningless Yardage" except that it wasn't meaningless.

 

[TealSox]

Personally, I have my fingers crossed that Ty Law, Rodney Harrison, Tedy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, Willie McGinest, and Corey Dillon that all find their way into the Hall of Fame. I have no doubt that Brady and Belichick will be in the Hall on their first ballot opportunities.

Ty Law:

- 5 time Pro-Bowler
- 2 time All Pro
- 53 career INTs (higher than 9 current HOFers)

Playoff/Super Bowl highlights:

- 3 INTs vs. the Colts in 2003
- TD vs. the Rams in SB XXVI
- 3 Super Bowl Rings

Rodney Harrison:

- 2 time Pro-Bowler
- 2 time All Pro

Playoff/Super Bowl highlights:

- 7 career playoff INTs (2 off record)
- 4 consecutive playoff games with an INT (record)
- 2 INTs vs. the Eagles in SB (1 off of record)
- 2 SB rings

Willie McGinest:

- 2 time Pro-Bowler

Playoff/Super Bowl highlights:

- 3 career Super Bowl sacks
- 16 career playoff sacks (record)
- 4.5 sacks vs. the Jags in 2005
- 3 SB rings

Richard Seymour:

- 5 time Pro Bowler
- 3 time (first team) All Pro
- 3 SB rings

This may not be a good argument, especially coming from a Pats fan, but the Super Bowl rings should be factored into the HOF equation. Ty Law may not have the resume of Champ Bailey or Ed Reed, but who here will tell me that those guys get in over Law? And why does Howie Long get a pass on a low total of career sacks and McGinest doesn't? Rings aside, what these guys did in the playoffs is just as noteworthy and should count for something, if not everything when it comes to the vote.

I think the writers should take into account the achievements of the Patriots, as a whole and enshrine individuals that represent the dynastical achievement of the Patriots in this new era of football. I would definitely accept McGinest going in as the representative of the linebacking corp of those great team, as well as Law and Harrison going in as the representing the secondary. Postfacing that last sentence, I think Harrison proved his value with the Chargers and cemented his career with the Super Bowls he won with the Patriots. AV should represent the special teams and Seymour, the defensive line.

At least this is the hope. My hope, that is.

 

[Ryan]

I really don't see any reason Ty Law shouldn't get in. He had an extended period of excellence, made his mark in the postseason, and has 3 rings. It doesn't hurt that he had some pretty good seasons with the Jets & Chiefs after his Pats tenure before finally wearing down a few years ago.