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Who I like in the draft (preliminary)

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by DaBruinz, Jan 22, 2006.

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  1. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    This is my preliminary list of guys who I like. Some I have watched play, others I haven't and I am going by what I have read. I know that it will change as I learn more about the different players.

    RB: D'Angelo Williams, Laurence Maroney, Maurice Drew

    FB/TE: Matt Bernstein, David Thomas

    O-line: Jonathan Scott, Jeremy Trueblood, Pat Ross, Greg Eslinger, Will Montgomery, Daryn Colledge, Charles Spencer, Chris Kuper, Jhari Evans

    WR: Maurice Stovall, Jonathan Orr, Todd Watkins (who can ALSO perform kick off duties), Cory Rogers, Miles Austin

    NT: Haloti Ngata or Babatunde Oshinowo

    OLB: Tamba Hali, Mathias Kiwanuka, Stanley McGlover,

    ILB: Kai Parham or Spencer Havener, Tim Dobbins

    CB: Ashton Youboty, Anwar Phillips, Jonathan Joseph, Will Blackmon, and Marcus Maxey

    S: Michael Huff, Bernard Pollard, Demeco Ryans, Freddie Keisho, Keith Ellison, Tim McGarigle

    I'd really like the Pats to take Drew, who I think can be more than a 3rd down back, and Bernstein, who I think they can make into their #1 FB and #3 TE because of his hands, his blocking ability, his ability to pick up the blitz, and his athleticism.

    I have taken Darnell Bing and Greg Blue off my list for safeties. Bing, I keep hearing bad things about. And Blue, I wasn't impressed with when I watched him though I put him on my list because I thought I might have been too critical of him. Then it was brought to my attention that he didn't have an interception in his entire college career. That's not a good thing for a safety.
  2. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa Rookie

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    What do you think of Manny Lawson Dabruinz? I know you put
    a lot of work into studying the draft. He seems like a good fit
    for our defense. I'm worried about Willie losing a step. Our
    pass rush struggled at times. We didn't put much pressure on
    Plummer at all. I think speed off of the corner would help our
    defense get off of the field. I follow PSU so I get to see a lot
    of the Big 10 games. I think you should put A.Zemaitis on
    your cb list. I'm curious to see his 40 time. Along with Anwar.
    I view Anwar more as a nickel back. Bigger cb who can cover
    the slot wr and maybe blitz. I think Zemaitis can become a
    solid starting cb in the NFL.

    If you're looking for a safety. I like Pat Watkins from FSU.
    He's a big, rangy kid who will probably get stronger once he
    gets out of school. He was a special teams demon too. He
    looked outstanding against PSU in Orange Bowl.
  3. nickw308810

    nickw308810 Rookie

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    Interesting list. A lot of players I would add and take off of it though. But I guess that is all just opinion stuff. The one question I do have, is why do you have LBs like Ryans, McGarigle, and Ellison listed at S? I don't understand that at all. I also am not so sure how well Hali or Kiwi would translate to a 3-4 OLB, but possibly could, but I don't think I want to try it.
  4. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Please review the thread on strong safeties.

    It is the belief of many here that a great 225 pound college linebacker who can cover may have a future on the patriots. However, that future is as a safety, likely as a strong safety.

    BTW, a great 255 pound college DE whose specialty is rushing the QB, is called by the patriots "an OLB"

    A tweener for the patriots is someone between 225 and 250 pounds. It is not clear where we would put such a defensive player.


  5. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #11 Jersey

    If I had to make a prediction right now, I think I'd pick Lawson as my likeliest selection at #21. The one question I'd have is his football dedication.

    How about Steve Fifita of Utah at NT? Stout, strong, immovable bowling ball who should be available in the middle rounds.
  6. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    I will be honest. Manny Lawson scares me. He has skyrocketed up the charts and when you hear words like "His workout numbers will boost his stock" another name comes to mind. Mike Mamula.

    I think that taking Lawson at 21 would be a massive reach. Entering the season, Lawson was rated as a 5th - 6th rounder by a few sites. Guys who tend to massively jump up like that tend not to do too well.

    As for Fifita, I worry about his size. He is only 5'11. That is significantly different than the 6'5 that Ted Washington was and the 6'4 that Vince Wilfork is. Now, the guy is supposedly 322. I would wager that he'd be a decent 2nd day pick or possibly a street free agent.
  7. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Nick -
    As MG pointed out (Thanks MG), Ryans, McGarigle and Ellison are too small to play ILB in the Pats 3-4. In the Pats 3-4, an ILB (which is DIFFERENT than a MLB) needs to be around 6'1 or taller and weigh in at 245 - 260. This is because the ILB has to be able to take on guards at times.

    The OLBs tend to be taller (6'3-6'5) and weigh 250-270. Hali is 1 inch shorter and Kiwanuka is 1 inche Taller. I still think they could fit into the mold becuase of their abilities. As for not trying it, well, that is your perogative. From what I have seen from Belichick, he would try it.
  8. nickw308810

    nickw308810 Rookie

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    A 225 pound LB may be able to move to strong safety on another team. But not the Patriots. Our DBs have to be versatile, and none of these LBs are going to be fast enough to play SS for us. You look at our Safeties now and you have Wilson, a former CB, at FS and Harrison, a former FS, at SS. In our secondary we need athletic players who can cover WRs even at the SS position. Ellison couldn't even keep up with Bruce Gradkowski.
    And of course we look for speedy DEs to play OLB for us. Believe me I understand how it works. All I was saying is that I don't believe either Hali or Kiwanuka can be that type of player.
  9. nickw308810

    nickw308810 Rookie

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    Ryans, McGarigle, and Ellison are too small to play ILB for the Pats. You are absolutely right about the type of player that we need to play ILB. Not really sure why you explained it, but I am sure if helped someone out. You have the perfect players listed there with Kai Parham and Spencer Havner. But move the 3 you mentioned to SS? That just doesn't make sense. If we line up DBs with 4.6-4.7 speed in Belichicks complex defense they are just going to get toasted. These guys aren't Michael Boulware, they aren't making that switch.
    Could Kiwi and Hali make that move? Possibly, but I just don't think they would excel in that position. If you are going to pick a "tweener" as I hope we do, there are better players out there to make that move.
    Sorry that I posted pretty much the same thing twice, I just felt both posts were so wrong that I needed to respond to them both.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2006
  10. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Sorry to burst your bubble, Nick, but you are wrong. Ryan Demeco runs "slow" at 4.6. Ellison is only slightly slower at 4.7. That is plenty fast to play SS in the Pats defense. BTW, before you go talking about what players a guy can't keep up with, you'd better make sure the guy you're using as an examply isn't faster. It makes your example worthless. Gradkowski is a 4.57 in the 40.

    As for what you believe, how about backing it up with something? Like reasoning?

    See, I've caught 3 of Hali's games. In each game he was a house. His hunger and drive is that of a Patriot player. And you could see it. He's also a leader on his team.

    As for Kiwi, He's got the skills and I don't see why he couldn't be a solid pass-rushing OLB either.

    Sorry, but you haven't convinced me of anything. Especially since Don Davis was able to convert from LB to safety and he's in the 240 range. He was able to keep up with players whom I didn't think he'd be able to stay with.
  11. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Hmm.. Why did I explain it? Because you came across as not having a clue.

    As for your evaluations, that's your opinion. You offer nothing to support your opinion in either post. Your one example was bogus.

    As for Myself and MG being "SO WRONG," well, that's your opinion also, but its totally unfounded and unsupported. Nothing you have offered has come close to proving our opinions to be wrong.
  12. drewdagreat

    drewdagreat Rookie

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    Not a bad list at all, but I don't like Youboty. I hope we don't take him.
  13. nickw308810

    nickw308810 Rookie

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    A 4.6 and a 4.7 isn't fast enough. Sure Davis played some Safety for us and did a good job, but don't you want to get better? Gradkowski is the perfect example. 4.57 is great for a QB, but if you can't keep up with a 4.57 how are you going to keep up with a WR who runs a 4.4? The answer is you can't. Especially since you pass coverage isn't your best ability anyway. You will basically be leaving your CBs on an island.
    Hali and Kiwi are both great 4-3 DEs and should have long careers there. I just personally wouldn't want to stand up the 6'7 guy who is use to being in a 3 point stance. Is he athletic enough to do it? Yeah, you are probably right, but it would just take too long. It would be too much of a hit or miss for a player we would have to trade up and get. Hali is a converted DT, if we drafted him it would be to play DE in the 3-4.
  14. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    One last thing, Nick. I suggest you do more research on the Patriots recent draft picks and their speed before making statements like
    James Sanders - SS - 4.62
    Dexter Reid- 4.6
    Guss Scott - 4.5

    Are you serious going to knock Sanders who did well for a rookie?
  15. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Dude -
    You are WRONG about the safeties and the speed they need. Plain and simple. I'm sorry that you can't accept that. And you claiming the Pats would be leaving the CBs on an island shows you don't have much of a concept regarding the Cover2 scheme they run.

    BTW, Kiwi is only 6'5.25. (http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/seniorbowl/reports/weighin.html) He's less than 1/2 inch taller than McGinest, who is 6'5. Moving McGinest out of the 3 point stance is what saved his career. As for you saying it would just take too long. How do you know how long it would take for Kiwi or Hali to make the adjustment?

    And your claim that the Pats would take Hali to make him a DE in the 3-4 is LAUGHABLE and shows your lack of knowledge regarding the 3-4 DE position. Hali is 6'2 and 265 lbs. He is way to SMALL to be a DE in the 3-4. However, he's almost the perfect size to be an OLB in the Patriots 3-4. A 3-4 DE needs to be between 295 and 310 lbs. MAYBE 290 if the cut it totally cut.

    Nick, I can see you are trying. But your suppositions show the enormous flaws in your understanding of the Patriots defense and what the "protoypical" requirements that they look for are.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2006
  16. nickw308810

    nickw308810 Rookie

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    If your Safeties can't get over the top in the cover 2 they are going to leave your CBs stranded. Saying "island" was a mistake on my part because I wasn't inferring they were in man coverage. I was just saying that they would be getting screwed. Have you ever played the cover 2 before? I am going to guess no. And since we do run the cover 2, you basically have 2 Free Safeties. Not traditional strong safeties like you have if you play a cover 3. Moving these guys to safety just does not fit the Patriots defense. As the all knowing one I am surprised you didn't know that.

    And as for Hali? Do you think it will be easier for him to lose some weight and become an OLB or gain weight and stay as a DE? He already has the experience playing DT. Don't think he will add some muscle being in an NFL weightroom? Neither of these players are the "prototypical" players you want as your 3-4 OLB.

    Good reference though on the James Sanders speed. Didn't realize he was so slow. I'll take a 4.62 SS who can cover over a 4.7 LB any day though. I wouldn't want any of those 3 in my starting 11. I would hope you wouldn't either.
  17. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    You are the one who seems to have the issue of "ALL-KNOWING" locked up. Especially with your comments right off the bat about not seeing things that were mentioned.

    And I understood, completely, what you were attempting to say. And while I have never "played" the cover 2 as a safety or CB, I know that you basically have 2 free safeties. However, I also know that the Patriots Cover 2 consists of mainly ZONE coverage. Yes, the corners are asked to press at times, but the LBs and safeties tend to play in ZONE coverage. And that allows the Patriots to have slightly slower safeties back there.

    What you fail to grasp is that these guys all have experience in coverage. They have covered TEs coming off the line and playing them man to man or in zone. McGarigle is extremely instinctive and very very good at play recognition, including play-action.

    Why would Hali have to lose weight? He's 265 lbs. That is 5 lbs lighter than McGinest and 4 lbs heavier than Vrabel's listed weight.

    Why would you want Hali to GAIN 30 lbs and probably lose some of the quickness to have him go back to being a DT (DE in the 3-4)? That makes Absolutely NO SENSE. Especially since he is a Pass-Rusher and plays a similar position to the Elephant that McGinest plays.

    Now, as for Kiwi, he's the same height as McGinest or close enough. Why is it again that you think he's not capable of playing up? Especially since he wouldn't be starting right away and would be groomed behind McGinest. You know, someone who has already made the transition?

    A few things. You seem to have missed the fact that the 3 guys I mentioned all have experience in coverages. That's right. ALL 3 of them. And, more often than not, the Safety isn't lining up opposite a WR, but the TE or a RB. Even in the Patriots Nickel coverages. Yes, when you have a safety like Wilson, he can line up against the slot receiver and be over-matching that slot receiver. But he is a special case and not the norm.

    McGarigle, especially, is noted for his leadership, his ability to read the plays, not to be fooled by play-action and to be at the point he needs to be to make the play. That sort of talent can't be taught. McGarigle may not be able to make the transition. Who knows. But its worth a late round pick to see if it could happen.

    I'm sorry that you are so hooked on stereotyping players and not looking beyond the position that they played. I was going to leave a sarcastic remark, but I have though better of it. Nick, you need to take a step back for a minute and look at the position changes that the Patriots have asked of players.

    Tedy Bruschi - College DE to OLB to ILB
    Willie McGinest - 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB
    Mike Vrabel - 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB to 3-4 ILB (also #3 TE)
    Richard Seymour - 4-3 DT to 3-4 DE
    Eugene Wilson - CB to FS
    Troy Brown - WR to Nickel Corner
    Tom Ashworth - OT to TE to FB
    Rosie Colvin - 4-3 OLB/DE to 3-4 OLB
    Dan Klecko - 3-4 NT to 4-3 DE to ILB to FB

    If the Pats think that one of those 3 guys, all of who are very talented and seem like they might be "Patriots" type players, is able to move back to play SS since they are the same size and speed as what we have, who are you or I to question them. Particularly with the success they have shown.
  18. nickw308810

    nickw308810 Rookie

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    Of course your safeties play zone in 2 coverage. What else would they do? If they had to man up it wouldn't be cover 2. We aren't in cover 2 every single play though.
    I have no doubt that they have experience playing coverage. But as a LB they aren't usually going to have to cover a whole side of the field like a safety would. That is a big transition to make. Our SS for most of this year was Artrell Hawkins, a CB. Our versatility has always been one of our strengths. Having Safeties that can cover WR is part of what makes our defense so good. You lose that if you put a player like Ellison or McGarigle back there. Plus if the injury bug continues those players couldn't be moved around in the secondary. They would have to play only SS, thus basically wasting a roster spot. Plus I read on NFLDraftblitz.com that Ellison and McGarigle's main weakness are their pass coverage. I do agree that McGarigle is a good player though. Could he put on enough weight to be an ILB for us?

    McGinest and Vrabel are possibly the 2 heaviest OLB in the league. Well besides Shawn Merriman. To gain the speed and the agility needed to make that switch he will have to lose some weight. Our other OLB Colvin is about 20 lbs lighter than them.
    He is also good against the run though for a Dlineman, which makes him a good candidate for DE in the 3-4. I just feel from watching him play that it would be more likely to do that then move to OLB. I think it is one of those agree to disagree type situations.
    Well, first of all I think you are underestimating just how good Willie McGinest is. Not every player his size can make that switch. Maybe Kiwi can make the switch, but there are players out there who will be a lot less of a risk in doing so.

    All LBs cover, it is part of being a LB, but like you said it usually is a TE or RB. Getting Ben Watson or Daniel Graham on a LB is a mismatch in our favor. Even having a LB cover Kevin Faulk is a mismatch. Good luck against a premier WR. As a LB they were in a tighter space. If they got beat someone would usually be there to make the tackle before too much yardage was gained. As a safety you are the last line of defense. If you get beat it is going for 6 90% of the time. Rodney Harrison also has the ability to cover a WR, but not as great as he use to be. The LBs will not only be lacking speed, but I doubt they will have the agility and fluid hips like a traditional DB

    I am not stereotyping anything. I know players switch positions. I want us to draft some DBs to play multiple positions. But the guys you mentioned aren't the players to do it. You look at players like Michael Huff, Ko Simpson, Darnell Bing, Danieal Manning, Antonio Cromartie, Jimmy Williams, and Greg Blue among many others and you know you can move those guys around in your defensive backfield. Give me DBs with versatility all day before a LB who can only play SS. Maybe those guys were bad examples because most will be day 1 picks, but you get the idea.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2006
  19. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    I never said we were. I suggest you go back and read your own comments again.

    This is really bad. LBs usually don't have to cover a whole side of the field? REALLY? Are you sure you played football? Last I looked, an ILB in the Patriots defense had to be able to cover his half of the field and 25% of the other half.

    Our SS was Hawkins because he was the only one who we brought in who could handle the position on a full time basis. It had more to do with his leadership ability and his play recognition ability than it did the fact he was a former CB. If there had been a LB available whom BB felt could make that transition, then that is who the Pats would have brought in.

    When are you going to stop telling me things that I already know?

    1st off, you can expect the injury bug to hit. 2ndly, Since you missed it, we have quite a few players who aren't versatile. Are those players a waste of space? A player like Larry Izzo who is basically only a special teamer and can't play on every down because he's a liability?

    As for what NFLDraftBlitz.com says, who are they and what credibility do they acutally have? I use NFLDraftScout.com, the site that NFL.com defers to for their evaluations of players. But that isn't the only site. I also review others looking for commonalities.

    How much more speed does Hali need? He runs a 4.75-40. He is quick already. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you obvioulsy haven't seen Hali play if you think that he needs to lose weight to gain speed and agility. BTW, Colvin is listed at 250, but he is heavier than that. Heck, Bruschi was listed at 245, but he said, himself, in an interview that he plays at 255 regularly.

    What you seem to be failing to grasp is that 3-4 OLBs aren't the same as 4-3 OLBs.

    Do you even read what you write? Hali being good against the run doesn't mean that he will be a good DE candidate. Why? Because to succeed as a Pats 3-4 DE he'd have to put on 25-30 lbs. This is what you fail to understand. Adding that much weight at this stage of the game would probably be detrimental to him. If ANYTHING, his being good against the run would be a bigger PLUS as a 3-4 OLB than a hinderance.

    Its not a matter of agreeing to disagree. Its a matter that you clearly don't understand what you are talking about.

    I understand just how good Willie McGinest is. I also understand that any player who works his tail off can make the switch. I also understand that if McGinest hadn't made the switch, he'd probably would have had to retire from injuries or he wouldn't be a Patriot. And not every player the size of Kiwi can add the 20 lbs he would need to be a successful 4-3 DE in the league.

    Do you think that by telling me things I already know regarding the different positions is actually helping your case? Its not.

    Rodney Harrison was moved to Strong Safety because his coverage skills were under-rated by the coaches in San Diego. He was much better at coverage than he was given credit for.

    What you fail to understand is that the Patriots safeties are rarely put in a position where they are one on one with an opponents WR. What you also ignore is the fact that the Patriots adjust their schemes to the people they have on the field. They make it a point to put players in a position to succeed. Not Fail. Its why the Pats had their scout receivers line up 5 yards beyond the LOS in practices for the Rams so that the corners would realize just how quickly the WRs would be on them.

    If you aren't stereotyping them, then what you are doing? You are sitting there making claims that you just can't back up and saying, basically, that you don't believe they could be successful because YOU said so.

    Also, I have to greatly disagree with you. I look at someone like Darnell Bing and I see someone that got over-rated because of the fact he was on USC. I look at Greg Blue and I see a player who has problems wrapping up and who didn't impress me in coverage. When someone mentions Antonio Cromartie, I laugh because here is a guy who tore his ACL and may or may not be able to participate in the combine activities OR the Pro-Day activities. So no one knows what he can really do.

    I also don't believe you could line those guys up at any of the DB positions and they would be successful.


  20. nickw308810

    nickw308810 Rookie

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    Swing and a miss!!! What a horrible post that was. You should be ashamed. You never once gave any evidence of anything and all you did was try to discredit me. All you did was prove how little you know about football. Being able to stop the run wouldn't help a Dlineman? Hmmm.... An ILB covering 75% of the field? Again an ILB is different than an MLB, but you already know that. Plus you backtrack on everything you say and claim you didn't say it. The previous post all you started talking about ZONE defense. You even put it in all caps for me. Then you say you didn't say it.
    NFLDraftBlitz is the 2nd biggest NFL Draft website. But if all you are basing your evaluations on is profiles than you might as well just stop talking.
    Sure Hali ran a 4.75 in a straight line, but what does that have to do with his quickness and agility will be needed to play OLB that he didn't have to use as much as a DE. Then I answer that he would have to gain weight which he would do in our strength and condition program. But you felt like you needed to repeat yourself once gain. It gets old, and boring.
    Do you really believe 2 of the top 3 DEs will make it to 21? Hali maybe. Kiwi, not a chance. Too many teams need DL help to pass up a player that talented.
    You also fasley accuse me of making stuff up, then say that Belichick would have used a LB at S and Colvin weighs more than he is listed. Hypocrite much?
    You obviously have no clue how a secondary works. I never said our safeties were going to play man coverage on a WR. Sure we put our players in a position to succeed. But when an opponents WR comes into your ZONE, you have to cover him. Just being there isn't enough. So do our S have to cover WR? Of course they do.
    Either way I am done with this thread. What a completely classless post. You tried to turn a good football argument into an internet name calling game. I guess you are one of those cool guys huh? Come back when you learn something about football.
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