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Who are the rich exectives?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by State, Aug 13, 2009.

  1. State

    State In the Starting Line-Up

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    #70 Jersey

    Michael Medved : Lives of Toil and Stress, Not Self Indulgence - Townhall.com

    But Obama wants to spread the wealth. He's doing this by spending our children's money, enlarging government, and penalizing the most productive who curiously haven't yet opted out of a hectic, punishing work life.

    This idea has been tried before, such as 1960s England, but it only led to a British "brain drain," and, ultimately, to Maggie Thatcher twenty years later.

    I think conservatives agree with the statement that hard work will lead to economic betterment, even success. I think liberals don't agree with this. They view hard work as wasteful of one's time, stultifying, only enriching those corporations and capitalists one is working for. In short, it's not worth it.

    That's why in France by law one can't work more than 35 hours a week. Germans don't do much better. But we Americans work even harder than the next group, the South Koreans. That's why more Americans consider themselves conservative than any other political designation.

    We still believe in the myth that one can become rich by dint of one's own labor. When that dies, we become more like France. That would be a tragedy, and I'm afraid it's happening.
     
  2. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    This is embarrassingly and hopelessly unthinking nonsense.
     
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And of course Thatcher's failure ultimately led to more than a decade of Labor rule, and even the British conservatives now are fairly liberal. And of course, Republicans Bush and Reagan set the records on spending "our children's money" up until Obama, but you left that out. Meanwhile, in terms of creativity, '60s England was perhaps the best ever, though the '80s was quite good too, so some areas of England did excel.

    Everyone agrees with that, but I think the differences is conservatives think that being part of the landed elite and inherited wealth reflect favorably on the beneficiary, while liberals tend to think that hard work should be rewarded, but not necessarily the fact that someone happens to be born rich. But, I do agree for many conservatives there is no other measure of success than money. Perhaps you're of that school?

    I think you're missing the fact that liberals are not as driven by money as conservatives sometimes are. We don't have $$$ signs constant running in our eyeballs. Our hard work is often in less profitable professions, such as teaching, scholarship, the media, the arts, mental health, doctors, and so on. I myself am going into a profession that will pay half of what I was earning in business because I want to do something more meaningful. My own experience, and I've managed literally hundreds of people over time, up to 60 at any given time, is that regardless of politics you have a few lazy people, a few hard working people, and lots of people who are in the middle.

    This quote that you provided sort of screws up your point:

    In ground-breaking work, Dalton Conley, chair of the sociology department at New York University, reveals that “it is now the rich who are the most stressed out and the most likely to be working the most. Perhaps for the first time since we’ve kept track of such things, higher-income folks work more hours than lower-wage earners do.”

    What we're seeing then is probably anomaly, where for "the first time" the rich are working harder, so that means up until now the rich did not work harder. Or are you saying that conservatives aren't rich and have always worked harder than rich folk, despite not getting their just reward?

    Is it all about money to you (becoming "rich)? If so that's our basic disagreement. Money is nice, but it's by no means the main reward. I know rich people and I know poor people, and their economic status has absolutely no relationship to their happiness.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2009
  4. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    I don't. I think there's a lot of truth to what he said. The term "entitlement" has been stretched so far in America that the rubber band broke and went whipping throughout the world just one year ago. Some "liberals" still believe in taking personal responsibility, but others are completely on the gravy train for all they can get, and no country can afford that, clearly not America.

    So many complain about "greedy corporations" but if you think that way, then please go ahead and build your own car, go back to mom and pop proprietorships for your food, energy, transportation, construction, and what not. Corporations, like guns and money (and even love), may be misused and become abusive, but it's never a given; many corporations are indispensable for daily life, and they enhance life tremendously with their combining of talents, abilities, and human work-power.


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  5. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    The logic breaks down when you reach the conclusion that some rich executive that's driven to work on Christmas eve or a couple of hours after he wakes up from major surgery will lose all motivation if he has to face a 2% increase in the Capital gains tax. What's most likely is that he'll be motivated to find a way around the tax.

    Was Andrew Carnegie stopped by taxes? Unlikely. Lets also make note of the fact that taxes on the rich back then were quite a bit higher. I'd say he got bored with adding yet one more zero to the end of his bank balance. Now did taxes lead to Carnegie distributing his wealth? I'd say almost certainly; but out of that society got Carnegie Hall and Carnegie Mellon University. Not exactly a bad bargain considering the fact that Carnegie's descendants are all still loaded.
     
  6. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Good example re Carnagie. I think people (with regular jobs, regular decent income) are a bit antsy over the prospects of a runaway Executive and Legislature (President and Congress) with regards to over-taxing private initiative/enterprise, ie, socialism. Nothing will kill America faster than to tax all private initiative into oblivion. A nation filled with people with their hands out is one definition of hell on earth.

    To return to the high-level of work executives take on, it is true for those who are on their way up; once up in the stratosphere there may be a tendency to coast, but getting there is not an easy climb. Ask any stock-broker or investment banker how they got to be successful: it all starts with 12-14 hour work days, 7 days a week.

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  7. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Might want to take a gander at this interesting piece...

    The Rich Get Richer And The Poor Get... Fired

     
  8. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    No. No there isn't. Especially if you don't show any substantiation for the claim. Of course you can't since it doesn't exist. The real lazy people in this thread are the conservatives who refuse to make real arguments instead of asinine sweeping generalizations. Get to work, guys.
     
  9. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Uhh-h, nice try but the burden of proof is on you to show how executives do NOT earn their pay. I was on the other side -- where you are now -- not long ago (having bounced around on this issue for many years), but it suddenly dawned on me: NOBODY is forced to buy a Ford or a PC or bank at JP Morgan Chase ..... there are plenty of alternatives to these, and if you don't like any of them, you are free to opt out and go Tarzan any time you wish. Funny how so few go the Tarzan route. :rolleyes:

    Buying all the socialist hype about private corporations is the real laziness. Sure, corporations can and should and must do better and better, but unless you have something better, you're just shoveling against the tide. Execs get big compensation because they make huge investments of their time and energy, then they roll the dice and bet it all on the thing they are doing, again and again.

    Should Brady work for $50,000 a year -- as his counterparts did 50 years ago -- when he can get $15,000,000 today??? If the public is willing to support him, he will take it. Simple as that. Same goes for execs. Don't let jealousy and envy spoil your day.



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  10. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    A graduated income tax is not totally bad, but it has limits on its effectiveness, reaches a point of diminishing returns. The real work is to educate people on how to create personal wealth and keep it growing, how to discipline one's self from getting sucked into the total consumerist mentality: gotta have the biggest SUV, the biggest flat screen, the luxuries one cannot afford but which become the raison d'etre for so many.

    SELF-control and SELF-discipline, rather than government's coercive control over individuals, is the way to go.


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  11. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    The amount of fraud conducted in corporate offices should suffice. If that doesn't work, the fact banking an insurance executives whose companies lost billions in the last 2 years should put an end to that.

    Of course, you deflected, foggy. The claim that liberals oppose hard work is still completely unsubstantiated and is dismissed until you guys can come up with a good reason for anybody to believe it. You won't be able to.


    Thanks in large part to his union.

    Nice evasion. Haven't you guys learned how to avoid at least the simplest errors in reasoning yet?
     
  12. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    You'll have to prove your claim of all the "fraud" you say is conducted. Be specific if you want to be taken seriously. Barring that, your entire post is meaningless, nothing but hot air.



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  13. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    Last edited: Aug 14, 2009
  14. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Carnegie earned his wealth before there was a federal income tax, he died 3 years after the 16th admendment was passed.

    Thanks for the liberal analysis....:rolleyes:
     
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The interesting thing is that according to Infoplease, Carnegie was worth $4.3 billion in today's dollars. The advent of the income tax, which put more money into people's pockets and developed our infrastructure, has led to far, far greater wealth. We could of course return to the old days without income tax, when the poor were slaves, indentured servants, or strikers being murdered by Pinkerton's and National Guardsmen, and the wealthier were far fewer and far between, but I don't think that's a good idea. The income tax has allowed our nation to develop at an impressive pace, and many people have benefited from it, and not just the poor, but the people that many conservatives care about too, such as insurance company investors, Wall Street brokers, those whose family wealth is based on their old slaveholdings, etc.
     
  16. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    I always figured you were a bit wealthy ... the Cambridge thing ... ;););)
    Just kidding ... I know you are a sharer.:D
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2009
  17. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Government coercing money from people has retarded economic development not encouraged it. IMO The economy hs grown due to technological development not due to government.
     
  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think there's an iota of evidence to support that. It seems to me that most of the best countries to live in have fairly high taxes.

    Taxes, Income Tax, Tax Rates. Finance, Economy - The WorldWide-Tax.Com

    The nation had many growth spurts, the technology boom was just one of them. The data seems to show that regardless of the economic principles in play at the time, our nation has had fairly steady growth.

    Economic history of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    (click on the "show data" in the blue bar near the bottom of the page)
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2009
  19. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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