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While Congress works on Flag Desecration Amendment, GWB signs American Flags...

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by DarrylS, Jun 22, 2006.

  1. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There is a move in congress to pass a flag burning(desecration) amendment...

    http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/061606FlagAmendment.html

    "The Senate Judiciary Committee approved the proposed amendment that would allow Congress to criminalize any "physical desecration" of the American flag on a vote of 11 to 7. If adopted, it would be the first time the Constitution has been used to restrict First Amendment freedoms or the Bill of Rights."

    While Congress is doing this, GWB is signing the flag to use it as a photo op on his popularity tour... most recently in Vienna and in the past to pander to workers in Michigan...probably has done this before.

    http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/06/did-george-bush-deface-american-flags.html
    "Did George Bush deface American flags in Vienna, Austria today?
    UPDATE: The Associated Press caught Bush defacing American flags in 2003. The Democrats need to offer an amendment to the "flag burning amendment" that says that writing on the flag is also illegal. Then let the Republicans decide if they're going to vote that George Bush defaced the flag, or whether they're going to defend defacing the flag. Either way, it will make for good theater. I see massive cardboard displays on the Senate floor with this picture blown up really large.

    A US embassy staffer in Vienna writes AMERICAblog and says he did. Reportedly, a slew of conservative Republican Bush supporters wanted to get Bush's autograph on US flags. And Bush signed them. Right on the flags. Kind of ironic right before Senate Republicans force us to debate "flag burning," again, simply because they have no more ideas left."


    The blogger is looking for verification of his Vienna actions, but once again the pandering, flip flopper once he leaves the short leash of Dick, Karl and Rummy is floundering all over the place. Heard his comments about Guantanamo yesterday, saying something to the effect, "There are Killa's there, and if we release them they will kill again". Sounds to me like he got himself in a terrrible jam and sounds like a complete dummy. Maybe he can sell some RNC spots on the flag, say Halliburton your complete nation recontruction company or Wal Mart one stop shopping come in and trample on workers rights.

    FYI here are relevant parts of the US Flag Code, sounds pretty good to me, maybe they should not go after an amendment, but just remind the Merican folks how the flag should be flown.

    http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html#USFC

    (d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
    g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
    テつァ 3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; mutilation of flag
    Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America; or shall expose or cause to be exposed to public view any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign upon which shall have been printed, painted, or otherwise placed, or to which shall be attached, appended, affixed, or annexed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, or drawing, or any advertisement of any nature; or who, within the District of Columbia, shall manufacture, sell, expose for sale, or to public view, or give away or have in possession for sale, or to be given away or for use for any purpose, any article or substance being an article of merchandise, or a receptacle for merchandise or article or thing for carrying or transporting merchandise, upon which shall have been printed, painted, attached, or otherwise placed a representation of any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign, to advertise, call attention to, decorate, mark, or distinguish the article or substance on which so placed shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days, or both, in the discretion of the court. The words 'flag, standard, colors, or ensign', as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't care what people do to the flag if their intention is to make some sort of political statement, but signing the flag seems simply egotistical. By signing the flag, Bush appears to be violating Army and Navy procedures by signing the flag, as your link shows.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2006
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    This kind of thing just makes the Bush haters look stupid and desperate. Signing a flag is not defacing it by any reasonable definition :

    "deテつキface Audio pronunciation of "deface" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-fs)
    tr.v. deテつキfaced, deテつキfacテつキing, deテつキfacテつキes

    1. To mar or spoil the appearance or surface of; disfigure.
    2. To impair the usefulness, value, or influence of.
    3. Obsolete. To obliterate; destroy."
  4. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The "Dip Sh!ts" say it's OK to burn the flag but they don't like the President Of The United States, The Commander In Chief, The Leader, to sign it.
    Jesus.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2005
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    BelichickFan, it's not liberals who protest defacing the flag, it's conservatives like you. But, of course, if Bush wiped his ***** with a flag, many conservatives would defend him. If you read what GJAJ15 posted, you would have read:

    "g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature."

    While Bush is ignorant, one can safely presume he knows how to write his name, and a name is a word made up of letters.

    Like most liberals, I'm against anti-flag-burning laws. In fact, I think they are ridiculous and pandering. But, for those who hold the flag as sacrosanct, writing on it is considered an act of defacing it.
  6. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    [​IMG]

    Quite possibly the fakest picture, ever, but not suprising from americablog.
  7. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Well I don't think any reasonable person has a problem with the President signing the flag.
  8. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    There is an etiquette to the flag use..signing it IS defacing the flag, whether you like it or not..and the fact that you dismiss this shows how hypocritical you are to it all.
    Reminds me of this older right winger many years ago who LOVED flying the flag so much..nothing at all wrong with that except..he left the flag up all night..a REAL no no in flag etiquette.. the jerk loved the flag but was totally oblivious to that and the fact of what he was doing. (Funny how it was the Legion who wrote him a letter..about that..) It is another oddity that the ONLY CORRECT way to discard a flag is to burn it.
    I think the flag burning amendment is silly...
  9. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That is not the issue, the issue is while congress is trying to rally support for a constitutional amendment(to make it look like it is doing something)..there is a code for the flag, in the meantime GWB is signing flags for a photo op. What are the limits?? Say in 20 years some third party that supports peace, stops all war would it be ok for that president to sign the flag followed by a peace symbol?? How would you feel if we did not win in Iraq if Hussein signed the American flag?? You cannot have this code both ways, the president has to obey the same laws as everyone else. I find this whole thing nothing more than pandering and a clear violation of this US code.

    Very reasonable people have big problems with situational enforcement of the laws of the United States, I expect that the person who is sworn to uphold the constitution should act like a leader.
  10. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    I agree...I am not sure where the courts are on this..I know many years ago there were a few cases of arrests for sewing a flag on jeans..not sure what the SC ruled... To me this is a non issue and a waste of Congres's time..why not talk about stem cell research or important issues...
  11. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Not according to the definition of defacing that I presented unless you consider a signature to be spoiling the appearance which is a questionable areguement at best.
  12. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Writing of any kind is defacing..SORRY
  13. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    That is your opinion, but not the definition :

    "deテつキface Audio pronunciation of "deface" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-fs)
    tr.v. deテつキfaced, deテつキfacテつキing, deテつキfacテつキes

    1. To mar or spoil the appearance or surface of; disfigure.
    2. To impair the usefulness, value, or influence of.
    3. Obsolete. To obliterate; destroy."
  14. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    If Bush actually wiped his poopy butt with it or spat on it, it would still be OK because that stuff comes out in the wash. ;)
  15. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    It's silly to ague a point when common sense is clouded by an inflated poilitical opinion that drives everything. One makes fun of Clinton and his parsin of words..this is just as dumb.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2006
  16. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    It's funny because I feel the same way. I don't even like Bush but I don't see how a reasonable person can call a President's signature "defacing". It's just another desperate stretch by the anti-Bush crowd. There's plenty of legitimite things to complain about Bush without something like this.
  17. scout

    scout Rookie

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    #15 Jersey

    There are plenty of things to complain about Bush, although, this does tend to fall under "the law doesn't apply to me" scheme that Bush often uses.
  18. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    SO you have different standards of what defacing is??? The President can write all he wants on it and it is OK and reasonable?? What if people wrote things like "F**K AMERICA" or *F**K Bush"..on the flag...is that OK with you??? It should be..since you do not believe the fact of writing is defacing..OR does it depend on who and what is written?? You are parsing like Clinton..and failing...
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2005
  19. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Why do I have to keep doing this :

    1. To mar or spoil the appearance or surface of; disfigure.
    2. To impair the usefulness, value, or influence of.
    3. Obsolete. To obliterate; destroy."


    I think most people would consider the things you siggested as marring or spoiling the appearance. Whereas most people wouldn't consider a President's signature to spoil the appearance.

    Whatever, we're obviously not going to agree and I think I'm repeated myself three times already.
  20. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    deface Show phonetics
    verb [T]
    to damage and spoil the appearance of something by writing or drawing on it:
    He was fined for defacing library books.

    (from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

    Whether it is W or anyone else..writing on a flag IS defacing it..
  21. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature."
    -US Flag Code Section 4(g)

    Still not arguing politics with you people anymore, but here's your fact of the day.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2006
  22. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    No it is not unless you consider a President's signature as spoiling the appearance.

    You are claiming the entire definition is to write on it. "writing or drawing on it" comes after "by" and only applies if the first part is true. I don't think most people think that the President's signature "damages or spoils the appearance" of the flag. And unless you do the second piece becomes irrelevant. It doesn't say "to change the appearance . . . ", if it did I would reluctantly have to agree with you.
  23. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    I agree that the piece there makes it technically wrong but I'm arguing the definition of deface.

    Moving on from deface, which I am clearly correct on, I do agree that this is technically a violation but I am confident it wouldn't bother most people unless burning it or throwing vulger slurs onto the flag.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2006
  24. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Funny how totally hypocritical that all is..so laws are all about politics and what is reasonable?? NOT about what REALLY is?? Defacing a flag is writing on it whether that be W's signature or someone else's scrawl..you are clouded in politicalness..and out of touch with reality...and you can believe what you wish to believe..but defacing is what it is defined as...writing on something...Where's comoin sense?? Out the window?? If you wish to believe that you certainly can..there still is the flat earth society STILL in existence ..if you wish to be a political flat earther..go ahead.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2005
  25. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    :rolleyes:

    As I said, it probably is a technical violation and he probably shouldn't do it anymore. I'm fine with that, as I've said I don't even like Bush.

    But the President signing the flag is not defacing it. The reason he shouldn't do it has nothing to do with "defacing".
  26. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    gee..that's even better...so what Bush did doesn't fall into one of these??? He's sounding like Clinton..parsing and digging deeper.. My definition isn't correct?? You don't like it...so??? you change the subject???
    Typical...
  27. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    As I have already said, this does make it a violation and he shouldn't do it due to that. That's not what I'm arguing, though, I'm arguing whether he "defaced" the flag and I am correct that he didn't.
  28. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    You were just complaining about anti-Bush haters...you don't like Bush??? Silly...sure you don't like Bush...ACTUALLy it is defacing the flag..you have two sets of rules..ones for people you like and another for people you don't like...silly!!!! Off to political flat earth land...
  29. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    No I don't like Bush. I voted for him in 2000 but not in 2004. But that doesn't mean I'm going to not use my brain in making some judgement. I don't have to automatically think he's Satan just for breathing like some people.

    And, no, it's not defacing.
  30. DarrylS

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    Credit this to Pujo, do not know how to used quotes more than once:

    The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature."
    -US Flag Code Section 4(g)

    Do not call it defacing or get hung upon that word, without regard it is wrong for GWB to sign a flag pure and simple, he is wrong, wrong, wrong... if Clinton did it it would be the same. Some things you do not do without regard for the reason.

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