Where to save some cap space

[JackBauer]

Pretty sure we'll need 4 TE's. Ballard is coming off an ACL injury, Gronk and Hernandez have missed alot of important games due to injuries or were severely limited. There's not much we can save this offseason, but on the positive side there's still plenty of space to re-sign the important ones.

So draft one/sign one/pick up an UDFA.

 

[Deus Irae]

...I'm not including guys like Larsen, Bernard, McDonald, Cunningham, etc. They're easy. They don't save a ton of money, and they don't have much if any dead money hit. They are either good low cost additions to the roster if they make the team, or small savings if they don't make the team. It's unlikely, for example, that both Cunningham and Benard make the team, so either way we'll save around $630K. Not much, but enough to afford one low budget signing...

Indeed. Those are the guys who pay for themselves at the bottom of the roster. If you cut one, you're basically just paying for his replacement and getting a little bit of the loose change that will be needed to fill out the offseason roster. The Patriots have that covered. With only a few draft picks this year, they've easily got the draft pool covered, as well.

The money need is really for the option of signing the team's FAs (i.e. Welker/Talib/Vollmer/Edelman/Woodhead) and keeping an emergency fund available for the upcoming season, IMO. To me, that's why even the idea of restructuring Mankins is a huge amount of money. Woodhead's cost shoudn't escalate much and Edelman's injury history should keep his price down. Other lower end re-signings might include the likes of Thomas, Arrington, Cole
etc...., and there aren't any players there that are going to break the bank.

Really, it seems as if the cap issue is mostly going to come down to which of the "big 3", if any, return, and it looks as if they can keep one without a huge problem, and more if the accounting is creative. BB could certainly toss in a surprise or two, but that's what I'm seeing as of now. Are we on the same page here, or are you seeing something different?

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

So draft one/sign one/pick up an UDFA.

You'd still have to pay them. So you either get Hooman who is proven to be a solid contributor or go with a completely unproven to save about $400k. Is that really worth the downgrade? It'll be hard to save on cuts this offseason, even with Ghost you'd be saving a maximum of $1M to swap him with a complete unproven, most likely not worth it.

Next offseason sounds like a different story based on the numbers JMT posted. If the team can field solid cheap alternative options to guys like Gregory and Ghost, ALOT of money can be saved.

 

[JackBauer]

You'd still have to pay them. So you either get Hooman who is proven to be a solid contributor or go with a completely unproven to save about $400k. Is that really worth the downgrade? It'll be hard to save on cuts this offseason, even with Ghost you'd be saving a maximum of $1M to swap him with a complete unproven, most likely not worth it.

Next offseason sounds like a different story based on the numbers JMT posted. If the team can field solid cheap alternative options to guys like Gregory and Ghost, ALOT of money can be saved.

I don't know what version of solid you're using, but I'm not sure that it applies here.

I'd rather get someone who can block, as a TE/FB, or who can catch out of the backfield. Not someone who sucks/is wildly inconsistent at both.

 

[mayoclinic]

Indeed. Those are the guys who pay for themselves at the bottom of the roster. If you cut one, you're basically just paying for his replacement and getting a little bit of the loose change that will be needed to fill out the offseason roster.

From a cap perspective, those guys are very valuable. Even if they don't see the field much, they provide low cost depth. If they produce, they are golden.

It's the guys who chew up significant amounts of cap space but who underproduce who become a problem. Gregory is a nice player. If he were a solid starter, he'd be a bargain. But as a backup, he's overpaid.

The other number that's important to consider besides the salary cap is the 53 man roster and the likely position count. If you are likely to only carry 4 safeties, can you afford to pay your #3 or #4 safety $2-3M/year? The Pats decided it was worth paying their #3 TE $2M/year, but now he looks to be their #4 TE or lower. Not the same. Dan Connolly is a nice versatile lineman, but if you are paying him $3.3-3.8M/year then you are paying him a non-trivial amount of money if he's being outplayed by guys making 1/3 the money. A flat cap makes it much harder to put up with those inequalities.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

You'd still have to pay them. So you either get Hooman who is proven to be a solid contributor or go with a completely unproven to save about $400k. Is that really worth the downgrade? It'll be hard to save on cuts this offseason, even with Ghost you'd be saving a maximum of $1M to swap him with a complete unproven, most likely not worth it.

Next offseason sounds like a different story based on the numbers JMT posted. If the team can field solid cheap alternative options to guys like Gregory and Ghost, ALOT of money can be saved.

An interesting point re: Gostkowski:

He ranked middle of the pack in TB %age, at about 47%.

OTOH, even including the disastrous returns in the SF game, when Gostkowski doesn't notch a TB, the Patriots ranked third in yardage allowed on returns.

 

[everlong]

The only way they would cut Ghost is if that rule where it's essentially 4th and 15 and you can punt or go for it vs kicking off or onside kicking went into effect. That would kill some of the value of all the kickers and increase it for the punters. Luckily we're covered.

 

[BradyFTW!]

He is overpaid, but Gostkowski probably costs too much in dead cap to cut this year. Maybe next year. Replacing him with a waiver wire guy or an UDFA might save a hair over a$1M. That kicker would likely be no better than Gost, and would probably be worse on kickoffs (the Pats' kickoff coverage was so terrible in the playoffs that Gost's value as someone who could boot it out of the endzone fairly frequently became a big deal).

 

[Deus Irae]

From a cap perspective, those guys are very valuable. Even if they don't see the field much, they provide low cost depth. If they produce, they are golden.

It's the guys who chew up significant amounts of cap space but who underproduce who become a problem. Gregory is a nice player. If he were a solid starter, he'd be a bargain. But as a backup, he's overpaid.

Absolutely..... and Gregory is a very interesting case. His dead money/money saved numbers (Jason has it at $1.67m in dead money and only about $517,000 in cap savings) make it so that it's not particularly great to cut him but, on the other hand, he played poorly for much of the season and the cap savings would be significant enough to cover most or all of some other bottom tier guy, or to sweeten the pot for a higher-level player. My question there is whether the Patriots would be comfortable heading into 2014 with

Ebner
McCourty
Wilson
Round 1 or Round 2 draftee
Camp fodder level players

For the moment, I'm guessing that he won't. I think he'll view Gregory as better than a fodder level guy, and I'm, at least temporarily, going with the idea that the team will look to address safety more in the draft than with a name level player in free agency.

 

[ay-yo]

I don't see Gregory or Conolloy being cut this year, not enough savings. Next year is entirely different.

Edit: I don't think we cut Ghost in the off season but I could see him getting cut in TC if a rookie looks good.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

We could cut Glass-I. It would actually hurt the cap, as cutting him would charge us an additional 83K versus keeping him, but you have to consider all of the medical bills and MRIs that add up.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I believe its 3.5.

Seems odd it isn't coming up in conversation which would lead me to believe the team will have to suck it up.

Memory is vague but I recall a post from a knowledgeable Pats fan here who said the deadlines had passed and yes the team was taking it in the shorts.

In my concerted opinion, they really need to look more closely at their medical evaluation methodology for a host of reasons. Were I BB I'd have Ernie or someone do the work and prepare data on why whatever went wrong in this case and player recoveries going awry and recommend courses of action for my consideration. Get outside the org opinions. Pay for them.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Re: Salary Cap - $18.6Mil for NE

We always talk about the cap hell the Jets are in, and they have more cap space than us, how'd that happen ?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

You have a better chance of convincing Brady to let Gisele spend the night with you.

I'll work on that one myself thank you, although I'd really prefer Mrs Welker

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I'll work on that one myself thank you, although I'd really prefer Mrs Welker

Well, I don't think Tom Brady can make that decision for Mrs. Welker.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

We could cut Glass-I. It would actually hurt the cap, as cutting him would charge us an additional 83K versus keeping him, but you have to consider all of the medical bills and MRIs that add up.

You are a bad, bad person.
(I hope Bob Kraft did not read that post)

 

[Pats0204]

Re: Salary Cap - $18.6Mil for NE

We always talk about the cap hell the Jets are in, and they have more cap space than us, how'd that happen ?

They don't have more room than us. They are 19 million OVER the cap. We are 18 under.

 

[Ivan]

Ok. Do you have any cap savings ideas?

Appreciate the effort but a bad idea that doesn't do much for them. Gostkowski is a much better kicker than he showed this season, imo he was hurt for the second half because his kick-offs were way down and Belichick didn't trust him for anything long.They should re-do Brady's deal so he can finish his career here and save them money against the cap, and signing Welker so they don't have to spend 12 against this cap would also really help. Mayo and Wilfork are also possibilities to restructure. At some point the TV money has to come into play and the cap go up significantly and they need to push money down the road where it won't hurt them but will allow them to load up for the end of Brady's career.

 

[patfanken]

One small piece of good news this year is that, when we talk about the draft costs to the cap, the figure of $5MM is commonly tossed around. I read recently that because of our low draft position and only 5 picks, the Pats draft costs will be closer to $3MM this season.

Of course, and this will make Felger very happy, there ARE ways to re-sign everyone AND end up well under the cap. We can simply emulate the Jets. IIRC, when they signed Holmes to the 5 year $50MM deal, his first year cap number wasn't much over $2MM, and Harris' first year cap number was low as well.

There's no question that we can give Welker his $10MM/yr, Volmer his $8MM and Talib his $9MM, and have them all under $10/MM combined in cap costs for 2013. All we have to do is to abandon the sound cap practices that we've run the team by for the last 13 years.

JM57 points out we are already half way there with 3 guys counting over $40MM against the cap. The Jets have 7 guys who count over $80MM. That's money that locked in stone. They can cut everyone else on their roster and they'd STILL be looking at that $80MM nut and 46 players they need to sign with just $40MM available to spend.

So its a value judgement folks, would you be willing to see this team go for broke the next 2 years and have to be blown apart afterwords and perhaps spend a year or two rebuilding. Or should we continue what we've always done and field very good teams that will be "just" serious contenders.

 

[shmessy]

The Patriots have over $42 million of their 2013 cap space allocated to three players. So much for the theory about spreading cap space throughout the entire roster. Right now the Pats have about $18 million to spend, but need to either re-sign or replace Welker, Talib, Vollmer, Woodhead, Edelman, Thomas, Arrington, Chung, White, Pryor, Cole, Branch, Scott, and Stallworth, sign the draftees, have some money available for signing bonuses to vet free agents that may not make the team, and another $5 million or so in reserve to use if needed during the season.


Perhaps the elephant in the room question that nobody wants to bring up is this: if Tom Brady wants to win another Super Bowl, will he extend or restructure at a discounted rate, so that money can be used to build a better supporting cast? Should the Pats tactfully bring the subject up? If so, how would he react?

For example, Brady has a great rapport with Welker and presumably would prefer for him to stay. Whatever the difference between the two sides is, would Brady lower his salary by that amount to keep Welker in Foxboro?



Top 2013 New England Patriots cap numbers:
$21,800,000 -- Tom Brady
$10,600,000 -- Vince Wilfork
$10,000,000 -- Logan Mankins

Brady is signed through 2014; his base salary is $9,750,000 in 2013 and the same in 2014; his cap number is the also the same for both seasons.

Wilfork is signed through 2014; his base salaries are $6,500,000 in 2013 and $7,500,000 in 2014; his cap number next year is $11,608,000.

Mankins is signed through 2016. His base salaries are $5,750,000 in 2013, $6,250,000 in 2014, $6,750,000 in 2015 and $6,750,000 in 2016. Mankins' cap numbers are $10,500,000 in 2014, $11,000,000 in 2015, and $7,000,000 in 2016.

Giving in to Mankins was a huge mistake.

I said it at the time, and today it is even more evident.

He is nowhere near as important to the team as Brady or Wilfork. There was little to no dropoff when Donald Thomas subbed for him. Certainly nowhere NEAR the dropoff to Brady or Wilfork's backups.