Wheatley and Wilhite

[italia44]

How exactly do you measure "Closing speed"? Or, is it just some stupid amorphous term for "I don't like this guy".


Wilhite's problem isn't "closing speed". Its poor ball awareness. He covers guys just fine, he just allows too many balls to be completed on good cover

And no, the the #1WR isn't generally on the left side. He's generally on the side where the weaker CB is. Teams move their wide receivers a lot more than teams move their cornerbacks.

Welcome to the Thread!.......XOXOXO

 

[Synovia]

Where do you get this number? I don't remember Wilhite on the outside a great deal last year?

Wilhite was the starting LCB for most of the season. Thats what a LCB does.

 

[supafly]

Don't worry about it, people don't need facts here, they just make **** up.


For about 75% of the snaps last year, Wilhite covered the outsider receiver on one side while Bodden covered the outside receiver on the other side.


The fact that there are people on here trying to make talent judgments who don't know that simple fact is mind boggling.

Don't worry about it, people don't need facts here, they just make **** up.

Interesting comment considering that Wilhite was only on the field for total snaps in the mid-50%'s, certainly nowhere near the "75%" that you pulled directly out of your behind. (per Reiss' defensive snaps breakdown)

The fact that there are people on here trying to make talent judgements who don't know the simple fact is mind boggling.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/272283-reiss-defensive-snaps-interesting-stuff.html

 

[supafly]

Where do you get this number? I don't remember Wilhite on the outside a great deal last year?

He reached up right bewteen his cheeks and pulled it out. Not only did Wilhite not cover 75% of the outside snaps, he didn't even play more than 57% total, and that includes all nickleback/dimeback situations on the inside. In those nickle and dime situations, guess who he covered? That's right. The 2nd-4th WR's.

For about 75% of the snaps last year, Wilhite covered the outsider receiver on one side while Bodden covered the outside receiver on the other side. The patriots don't break down their coverages by receiver number, they do it by the side of the field.

 

[emoney_33]

Wilhite was the starting LCB for most of the season. Thats what a LCB does.

Is there anywhere we can find the breakdown of numbers, I seem to recall him playing a lot of slot coverage not the bulk of the LCB snaps.

 

[italia44]

i see, why is it better if the SILB does this? i though his job is to fight off OL....

Let's go back to the problem in 2008,with Tedy and Mayo at ILB's.The Pats are in a base 3-4:
2 safeties,2cb's,no nb.

Offense:Strong side-Left.......TE is lined-up next to Lt.....Pass play......Te releases into pattern down the seam of the defense(reallas Clark).
The initial coverage responsibility in the base 3-4 is Tedy's at ILB......not the SS,he's too small.

The problem in 2009 was exacerbated by Mayo playing out of position,next to Guyton.What BB did is adjust to a bracket coverage on the TE seam route(re:Tony Gonzales).You still have initial coverage by the ILB,but this time you're using the SS(McGowan) to key on the TE as well.
This isn't optimum in the base 3-4,as you don't want take your SS,out of the box,to cover downfield..........However,BB had to do something and this turned out to be a nice adjustment.

This year,placing Mayo back in position(hopefully),
the balance of the base 3-4 will be restored and the initial coverage will be by the ILB,not by a SS or a Hybrid(SS/LB).

 

[supafly]

Let's go back to the problem in 2008,with Tedy and Mayo at ILB's.The Pats are in a base 3-4:
2 safeties,2cb's,no nb.

Offense:Strong side-Left.......TE is lined-up next to Lt.....Pass play......Te releases into pattern down the seam of the defense(reallas Clark).
The initial coverage responsibility in the base 3-4 is Tedy's at ILB......not the SS,he's too small.

The problem in 2009 was exacerbated by Mayo playing out of position,next to Guyton.What BB did is adjust to a bracket coverage on the TE seam route(re:Tony Gonzales).You still have initial coverage by the ILB,but this time you're using the SS(McGowan) to key on the TE as well.
This isn't optimum in the base 3-4,as you don't want take your SS,out of the box,to cover downfield..........However,BB had to do something and this turned out to be a nice adjustment.

This year,placing Mayo back in position(hopefully),
the balance of the base 3-4 will be restored and the initial coverage will be by the ILB,not by a SS or a Hybrid(SS/LB).

Nice anylsis, but regardless of whether or not it's the SILB's assignment (at times) or not, McGowan did a very nice job in that role last year.

My guess is that it changes up depending on various looks anyways.

After looking at the 09 defensive snaps again, I saw that McGowan played in 73% of the snaps, enough for 5th on the entire defense. He was right next to Meriweather and Mayo, a bit behind Bodden (9%). You are cutting him short, and not realizing that we need 5 safeties on the roster, at the absolute very least 4, but likely 5.

They will likely be: Meriweather, Sanders, McGowan, Chung, Lockett.

Cutting McGowan (ridiculous) and even Lockett, would bring us down to 3 safeties, and that'd be messing with a position of stability.

 

[Ring 6]

Let's go back to the problem in 2008,with Tedy and Mayo at ILB's.The Pats are in a base 3-4:
2 safeties,2cb's,no nb.

Offense:Strong side-Left.......TE is lined-up next to Lt.....Pass play......Te releases into pattern down the seam of the defense(reallas Clark).
The initial coverage responsibility in the base 3-4 is Tedy's at ILB......not the SS,he's too small.

The problem in 2009 was exacerbated by Mayo playing out of position,next to Guyton.What BB did is adjust to a bracket coverage on the TE seam route(re:Tony Gonzales).You still have initial coverage by the ILB,but this time you're using the SS(McGowan) to key on the TE as well.
This isn't optimum in the base 3-4,as you don't want take your SS,out of the box,to cover downfield..........However,BB had to do something and this turned out to be a nice adjustment.

This year,placing Mayo back in position(hopefully),
the balance of the base 3-4 will be restored and the initial coverage will be by the ILB,not by a SS or a Hybrid(SS/LB).

Dude, you are pretty much making that whole thing up.

First of all, we have NUMEROUS different coverages.
Secondly, we mostly play zone, so all of these things you are talking about are irelevant. You cover the guy who comes into your zone.

 

[Ring 6]

Wilhite got torched like a cigar alot last year....he was awful overall....

I dont really agree with that.
When he got beaten, he got beaten badly, which made it seem worse.
On a percentage basis he did a decent job in coverage, but the times he didn't he either got beaten badly and/or lost track of the ball, which made it look a lot worse.
I'm not saying he was good, I'm saying compared to an average corner, the percentage of plays he had good coverage was good, and the times he got beat, he got beat worse.

 

[Kontradiction]

Don't worry about it, people don't need facts here, they just make **** up.

Interesting comment considering that Wilhite was only on the field for total snaps in the mid-50%'s, certainly nowhere near the "75%" that you pulled directly out of your behind. (per Reiss' defensive snaps breakdown)

The fact that there are people on here trying to make talent judgements who don't know the simple fact is mind boggling.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/272283-reiss-defensive-snaps-interesting-stuff.html

This is pretty much as game-set-match as it gets.

 

[supafly]

Is there anywhere we can find the breakdown of numbers, I seem to recall him playing a lot of slot coverage not the bulk of the LCB snaps.

I haven't been able to find anything at all on sub package positional breakdown as far as secondary assignments. You'd likely have to either go through individual game film or individual game notes and stats at the least.

Synovia is correct in the fact that he played a base LCB in several games, that we all know. This had to have occured in a small window between the beginning of season LCB rotation where they all saw time (Butler, Springs, Wilhite), and the stretch where Springs came back from being hurt/inactive in the last 4 games or so. Somewhere in the middle, I'd guess.

Even then, considering the facts that:

1. They all saw total reps in the low to mid 50%'s, with Butler and Springs around 51-52%, and Wilhite at 57%

2. Wilhite certainly didn't even see the field more than 57% of the time---let alone spend ALL of that time covering the outside WR. A majority of that was split in sub packages, in nickle and dime coverage

3. It was 57% total, which obviously included sub packages of course

Even giving him the benefit of the doubt, if you'd split the 57% up in half (28.5 and 28.5) he maybe saw about 1/4 of actual game reps at base LCB, with the other 1/4 in sub packages.

At any rate, 25% is a lot different than 75%. To answer your question about whether he was in base LCB more or nickle/dime more, I couldn't answer that. I'd have to guess they were similar numbers. The bottom line is that all the posters are correct in saying that he played inside in subs, thus covering the 'lesser' WR's--yet Synovia is of course correct in stating that we don't switch sides, and that Wilhite did indeed cover #1's at times too. Like I said, if I had to guess, I'd say they'd be split up decently even.

However, he was of course, way off in stating that Wilhite played 75% of all snaps at a base LCB, lining up against outside receivers, as he wasn't on the field for more than about half the defensive snaps anyway.

 

[ALP]

Let's go back to the problem in 2008,with Tedy and Mayo at ILB's.The Pats are in a base 3-4:
2 safeties,2cb's,no nb.

Offense:Strong side-Left.......TE is lined-up next to Lt.....Pass play......Te releases into pattern down the seam of the defense(reallas Clark).
The initial coverage responsibility in the base 3-4 is Tedy's at ILB......not the SS,he's too small.

The problem in 2009 was exacerbated by Mayo playing out of position,next to Guyton.What BB did is adjust to a bracket coverage on the TE seam route(re:Tony Gonzales).You still have initial coverage by the ILB,but this time you're using the SS(McGowan) to key on the TE as well.
This isn't optimum in the base 3-4,as you don't want take your SS,out of the box,to cover downfield..........However,BB had to do something and this turned out to be a nice adjustment.

This year,placing Mayo back in position(hopefully),
the balance of the base 3-4 will be restored and the initial coverage will be by the ILB,not by a SS or a Hybrid(SS/LB).

what should the SS be doing in this scenario if not covering the TE? also, i though OLB's fell back into coverage to cover the TE, hence AD having drop back duties as well

 

[italia44]

what should the SS be doing in this scenario if not covering the TE? also, i though OLB's fell back into coverage to cover the TE, hence AD having drop back duties as well

With a Strong-Left formation,the SS duties are more complex.Such as:are you playing zone,behind the base 3-4?Is there a slot receiver on either side.Unlike the linebacker,he's not keying off the Te,but off the formation or secondary defense that is called.

On the strong-side left,they don't use TBC,He's your rush LB in the 3-4.If it's strong -right,AD can cover..........Either way,you're not moving your SS,according to the way the offense is lining up the TE,since he doesn't key off of this player,the LB does.

 

[captain stone]

WhoIs better? Ibelieve ppl mix them up and honestly I do not remember specifics for either from last year. Who has the broken wrists, and who is th one that was always an inch away from breaking up multiple passes last year

also realize that springs may be the one who gets cut and therefore we will keep both these guys which I don't think either is as bad as Hobbs

Not as bad as Hobbs? Compared to these 2 over-drafted, under-talented midgets, Ellis Hobbs looks like Darelle Revis in comparison. Plus Hobbs was an excellent KOR, and for that reason alone should not have been traded during last year's draft.

 

[rodentstew]

With Bodden, Butler, McCourty, and possibly Springs getting the majority of the snaps, Wilhite and Wheatley are right where they belong - young, cheap, relatively experienced depth guys who know the system, and not the end of the world if they have to sub for injured starters for a few games.

 

[wcpatsfan]

Trading Hobbs was a mistake, IMO. I don't think he was a good starter, but he would have been more than adequate as a nickel or dime back. More importantly, he was a dynamite kick returner. We stunk in the kick return game last year and I think a lot of that had to do with losing Hobbs.

This year, I'd rather have Hobbs out there as a dime back than Springs, Wilhite or Wheatley.

 

[eom]

Is there anywhere we can find the breakdown of numbers, I seem to recall him playing a lot of slot coverage not the bulk of the LCB snaps.

profootballfocus has all that, if you trust their stuff -- and I don't mean the player ratings.
I'll go check it out and report back.....

edit:

http://profootballfocus.com/by_posi...e=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=50&numgames=1

first of all, here's a sortable comprehensive list of corners for comparison --- his raw stats don't really stack up all that well.

I'll go get that other stuff.

edit:

w1 buf - 59% of snaps
near even split lcb/slot -- springs took lcb snaps while wilhite slot, butler at lcb while wilhite off field

w2 nyj - 69%
2/1 lcb/slot w/a couple fs snaps thrown in -- butler picked up lcb slack

w3 atl - 0%
springs at lcb, butler dnp

w4 balt - 63%
lcb w/a couple slot plays -- springs at lcb/slot

w5 den - 41%
slot w/a a few lcb -- springs/butler covered lcb

w6 ten - 98%
about 3/1 lcb/slot w/a few safety plays thrown in

w7 bucs - 77%
about 2/3 lcb/slot -- butler at lcb, springs only saw 3 plays

w9 'phins - 0%
butler at lcb

w10 colts - 100%
rcb -- bodden at lcb, springs dnp

w11 jets - 100%
about 3/1 lcb/slot -- butler picked up lcb slack, springs dnp

w12 saints - 69%
about 1/3 lcb/slot -- butler lcb, springs dnp

w13 'phins 62%
slot w/a handful lcb and rcb to cover injured bodden -- butler lcb

w14 car 54%
about 1/3 lcb/slot -- butler + springs lcb

w15 buf - 38%
slot -- springs lcb

w16 jax - 53%
slot -- springs lcb

w17 hou - 54%
slot -- springs lcb

playoffs balt - 11%
slot -- springs lcb first half, butler taking over 2nd half

 

[supafly]

profootballfocus has all that, if you trust their stuff -- and I don't mean the player ratings.
I'll go check it out and report back.....

edit:

ProFootballFocus.com - By Position

first of all, here's a sortable comprehensive list of corners for comparison --- his raw stats don't really stack up all that well.

I'll go get that other stuff.

edit:

w1 buf - 59% of snaps
near even split lcb/slot -- springs took lcb snaps while wilhite slot, butler at lcb while wilhite off field

w2 nyj - 69%
2/1 lcb/slot w/a couple fs snaps thrown in -- butler picked up lcb slack

w3 atl - 0%
springs at lcb, butler dnp

w4 balt - 63%
lcb w/a couple slot plays -- springs at lcb/slot

w5 den - 41%
slot w/a a few lcb -- springs/butler covered lcb

w6 ten - 98%
about 3/1 lcb/slot w/a few safety plays thrown in

w7 bucs - 77%
about 2/3 lcb/slot -- butler at lcb, springs only saw 3 plays

w9 'phins - 0%
butler at lcb

w10 colts - 100%
rcb -- bodden at lcb, springs dnp

w11 jets - 100%
about 3/1 lcb/slot -- butler picked up lcb slack, springs dnp

w12 saints - 69%
about 1/3 lcb/slot -- butler lcb, springs dnp

w13 'phins 62%
slot w/a handful lcb and rcb to cover injured bodden -- butler lcb

w14 car 54%
about 1/3 lcb/slot -- butler + springs lcb

w15 buf - 38%
slot -- springs lcb

w16 jax - 53%
slot -- springs lcb

w17 hou - 54%
slot -- springs lcb

playoffs balt - 11%
slot -- springs lcb first half, butler taking over 2nd half

EOM--Really nice job finding these breakdowns, as I attempted to track it down but couldn't find it anywhere. Your legwork is appreciated.

Basically, your breakdowns confirm what emoney33 thought, as far as Wilhite playing more slot than actual LCB--and also what I thought, which was the majority of his LCB play came between the first part of the season when they were using rotation more, and when Springs came back for the last 5-6 games. Basically, he had the majority of his higher percentage LCB plays in the middle of the season: (surely not coincidental that Springs was hurt)

Wk 6--98% game reps total, but majority at LCB
Wk 7--77% game reps total
Wk 8--BYE
Wk 10--100 % game reps total, but majority at RCB (interesting)
Wk 11--100 % game reps total, but majority at LCB

(all the rest were pretty much more slot than base CB)

I figured off the top of my head that the slot/actual straight up LCB reps would've been pretty well split, dividing his 57% of actual game reps. I figured it was likely close to 28%--28% (guesstimate) slot to LCB, but apparently it was closer to 35% slot, and 22% actual LCB (Indy being the exception at RCB).

I think it's interesting that as the season went on, his reps went way down, an apparent symbol of his play + what Belichick thought of him.

I think he got his chance in the beginning of the season to prove himself, and to stand out. This happened when BB used a 3 man rotation between Wilhite, Butler, and Springs. Once Springs got hurt, Wilhite saw the majority of his base CB reps at that time. When Springs returned in Week 13, Wilhite's reps took a big hit, I think that says alot.

Even in the playoff loss to BAL, he only played 11% of total reps. Once again, I think this says alot about his play, and the fact that we needed him as a warm body to compete and divide reps with a totally green rookie (Butler).

Wilhite will likely see the majority of any play in sub-packages, in nickle and dime situations, which is exactly where he belongs. With Butler likely taking over at LCB, and McCourty being given valuable rotational reps, it should be Springs who is above Wilhite in the depth chart at the left side---barring any obvious injuries.

To bottom line things, Wilhite actually only saw approx. 20-25% of his live game reps at a base CB spot, with the majority (30-35%) lined up in the slot in sub packages.

 

[eom]

damn...can't edit:
I think there are a few dnp's I wanted to add.
w13 - springs
w15 - butler
w16 - butler
w17 - bodden

yeah, so it looks like after those first few rotational weeks wilhite got most of his base reps in that tenn blowout when springs and bodden each saw about 20% of the snaps, and then weeks 10-13 when springs was inactive.
after that it looks like belichick has him pegged as 3rd/4th corner behind springs.

while on the surface of it 11% doesn't look so good in the playoffs, note that of the 65 plays the ravens ran only about 11 were pass plays, and only 5 of those used 3 wr -- wilhite played 7 snaps.

 

[capetide]

Wheatley, Wilhite, respectively.

Safe to say Belichick thinks Wilhite is better as the only time Wheatley was allowed on the field was the game that Wilhite had the robbery incident the morning of the game.

What's interesting is that it's been said (Reiss?) that the players think that Wheatley is a better CB than Wilhite.