Wheatley and Wilhite

[cstjohn17]

Wheatley and Wilhite = Two players I hope we don't see a lot of this year.

Whilhite is a servicable end of the rotation JAG with no upside.

Wheatley is an over drafted player who has been injured ever since college, which means by some posters definition he can be traded for a round 1 draft pick.

 

[patsfan-1982]

Wilhite, can still turn into a good nickel/dime CB Wheatley, is a bust and a #5 CB/ST at best i still think Wheatley, will make the team cause 35 year old springs who was inactive for at lest 3 games that i can rember should not make the team.

 

[italia44]

owww, excellent thanks for that analysis

so who do u see us keeping for this upcoming season at the cb spot?

I think Wheatley is gone,but not for the reason you think....He has good speed and BB kept him for return possibilities,but McCourty will make him dead weight on ST.

Wilhite is interesting......I think he'll stick as a nickleback......he has some talent....the problem is that you can yell and scream,all you want,but you can't MAKE them turnaround.However,this is usually a matter of panic and nervousness,in young cb's.If you'll notice,this isn't usually a problem with Tampa 2 corners,like Indy.They are taught,not to turn,but backpeddle......that's why T2 corners are more interchangeable.

I think Lockett is gone,as well as McGowan......
McGowan,more so,because BB will keep an extra LB........Slater will stick,because he's a "binky"(don;t get me started!).

The wild card ,here,is Kyle Arrington......good kid....very fast,excellent tackler.....really like him.
He WANTS to return kicks.....He WANTS to play CB.......I think he's going to get his chance,
possibly behind Bodden.

The Pats are getting back to the "wheel-type" defense.......An Eric Ratgini speciality,I might add.
Safeties,like Meriweather,who can play corner...
Corners,like Butler,who can play safety.You "wheel" them back and forth,so QB's lose their "keys",on what defense you are in.It's,also a way to create press coverage.It's a timing scheme,that requires speed and intelligence in your back line defenders.

That's what BB is after and we're almost there,imo,I really like the way this is setting up.

 

[supafly]

I think Wheatley is gone,but not for the reason you think....He has good speed and BB kept him for return possibilities,but McCourty will make him dead weight on ST.

Wilhite is interesting......I think he'll stick as a nickleback......he has some talent....the problem is that you can yell and scream,all you want,but you can't MAKE them turnaround.However,this is usually a matter of panic and nervousness,in young cb's.If you'll notice,this isn't usually a problem with Tampa 2 corners,like Indy.They are taught,not to turn,but backpeddle......that's why T2 corners are more interchangeable.

I think Lockett is gone,as well as McGowan......
McGowan,more so,because BB will keep an extra LB........Slater will stick,because he's a "binky"(don;t get me started!).

The wild card ,here,is Kyle Arrington......good kid....very fast,excellent tackler.....really like him.
He WANTS to return kicks.....He WANTS to play CB.......I think he's going to get his chance,
possibly behind Bodden.

The Pats are getting back to the "wheel-type" defense.......An Eric Ratgini speciality,I might add.
Safeties,like Meriweather,who can play corner...
Corners,like Butler,who can play safety.You "wheel" them back and forth,so QB's lose their "keys",on what defense you are in.It's,also a way to create press coverage.It's a timing scheme,that requires speed and intelligence in your back line defenders.

That's what BB is after and we're almost there,imo,I really like the way this is setting up.

Nice analysis, but why in the world would we mess with one of our best set positions in safety?

With many big nickle schemes, we need 3 on the field, not to mention a minimum of at least 4 total in case of obvious injury.

Chung may be coming along, but I can't see how you cut 2 more safeties (McGowan/Lockett), leaving us only 3--when you need 3 in the big nickle alone?

Not to mention that during the 1st half of the season, McGowan was the obvious defensive team MVP. It was the New Orl game that made he, and the rest of the secondary look bad. Even the 2nd NYJ game he still caused a major fumble on the 2nd half kickoff. We need more guys with as much heart and football attitude as McGowan, IMO. He provides great depth, situational football reps, and ST presence.

 

[supafly]

I think Wheatley is gone,but not for the reason you think....He has good speed and BB kept him for return possibilities,but McCourty will make him dead weight on ST.

Wilhite is interesting......I think he'll stick as a nickleback......he has some talent....the problem is that you can yell and scream,all you want,but you can't MAKE them turnaround.However,this is usually a matter of panic and nervousness,in young cb's.If you'll notice,this isn't usually a problem with Tampa 2 corners,like Indy.They are taught,not to turn,but backpeddle......that's why T2 corners are more interchangeable.

I think Lockett is gone,as well as McGowan......
McGowan,more so,because BB will keep an extra LB........Slater will stick,because he's a "binky"(don;t get me started!).

The wild card ,here,is Kyle Arrington......good kid....very fast,excellent tackler.....really like him.
He WANTS to return kicks.....He WANTS to play CB.......I think he's going to get his chance,
possibly behind Bodden.

The Pats are getting back to the "wheel-type" defense.......An Eric Ratgini speciality,I might add.
Safeties,like Meriweather,who can play corner...
Corners,like Butler,who can play safety.You "wheel" them back and forth,so QB's lose their "keys",on what defense you are in.It's,also a way to create press coverage.It's a timing scheme,that requires speed and intelligence in your back line defenders.

That's what BB is after and we're almost there,imo,I really like the way this is setting up.

So now Kyle Arrington gets to be behind Bodden in the CB depth chart too? He was the last CB on the depth chart + we added another 1st rd pick at CB. How did Arrington move up on the depth chart with the addition of another CB?

As far as BB keeping an extra LB--what about cutting E.Alexander? The recent cut of AD? The probabilty of Burgess not returning? These all open up spots for Cunningham, Spikes, and Crable.

 

[signbabybrady]

This is an inteteresting debate.

Few things to comment on.

I have heard a few people ask why we gave up on hobbs when we did?

I was one of the few Hobbs fans around here and while I am not sure he what we got in return was worth the risk we had just drafted two kids and even I was OK with giving the kids space to grow.

It didn't work the way we hoped which is why were back at it last year and this year.

Also to those cutting Whilhite, Wheatly, or Springs right now is crazy I could see 6 CBs being kept with the STs contribution that could come from the position. I think we are only talking about 7 guys legitamately competing for these spots (sure someone could suprise) but Bodden, Butler, Mcourty are your top 3 and Springs, Whilhite, Arrington, And Wheatly will compete for the last spots. I think if no ones skill changes (for better or worse) than Wheatly gets cut but I don't think it would be to crazy to think Wheatly could improve just enough and Springs could slip closer to the end and wind up cut or maybe wheatly gets over the injury thing and proves he actually is better than Whilhite leaving Whilhite in Wheatlys place in the above scenario.

To me there is good training camp competition and see no real reason why any two of the three (Whilhite, Wheatly, Springs) cant make it.

 

[italia44]

So now Kyle Arrington gets to be behind Bodden in the CB depth chart too? He was the last CB on the depth chart + we added another 1st rd pick at CB. How did Arrington move up on the depth chart with the addition of another CB?

As far as BB keeping an extra LB--what about cutting E.Alexander? The recent cut of AD? The probabilty of Burgess not returning? These all open up spots for Cunningham, Spikes, and Crable.

On April 28,4 whole months before the season starts,is no time to be discussing depth charts,skippy......That's,NOT what I was proposing.The poster asked me nicely to give my opinion of which CB's might get cut.

I gave a reasoned opinion on Arrington at RCB,behind the starter(Leigh Bodden).....that doesn't put him #2,3 or 4........just behind Leigh Bodden...period.

Next,whereas,Butler,Springs and maybe,McCourty have Safety capabilities,it makes McGowan,who is a one-trick pony,imao.......superfluous.Same with Lockett It doesn't have anything to do with Alexander......I was asked my opinion on defensive backs,not LB's.

Lastly,my comment on keeping an extra LB has to do with LB's who will actually play......ummm,,,,
Linebacker.......I'll get back you on my birthday,August 28,regarding a depth chart.

 

[supafly]

On April 28,4 whole months before the season starts,is no time to be discussing depth charts,skippy......That's,NOT what I was proposing.The poster asked me nicely to give my opinion of which CB's might get cut.

I gave a reasoned opinion on Arrington at RCB,behind the starter(Leigh Bodden).....that doesn't put him #2,3 or 4........just behind Leigh Bodden...period.

Next,whereas,Butler,Springs and maybe,McCourty have Safety capabilities,it makes McGowan,who is a one-trick pony,imao.......superfluous.Same with Lockett It doesn't have anything to do with Alexander......I was asked my opinion on defensive backs,not LB's.

Lastly,my comment on keeping an extra LB has to do with LB's who will actually play......ummm,,,,
Linebacker.......I'll get back you on my birthday,August 28,regarding a depth chart.

Read your original comment. It has everything to do with it since you were the one who stated "I think Lockett and McGowan will both be gone, since BB will keep an extra LB."

First of all, we need at minimum 4 safeties--regardless of keeping extra LB's. You were the one who made the coorelation.

Cutting McGowan or Lockett who are both safeties has absolutely nothing to do with keeping an extra LB. We use 3 safety big nickle formations, so obviously we'll need at least 4 safeties at worst. Not to mention that McGowan was a specialty player who kept future HOF'er Tony Gonzelez to an absolute minimum. I don't know why you'd mess with success at a stable position, based on your "opinion" that "Butler, Springs, and McCourty" can play safety (???) That's ridiculous.

And since you were the one who brought up keeping an extra LB, why will it be a problem when we just cut AD, will cut Alexander, and Burgess likely will not be resigned? That already just freed up 3 LB positions for Cunningham, Spikes, and Crable/Woods. Why would it be a problem anyway?

As far as Kyle Arrington getting actual game reps behind Bodden--the only possible way he could break ANY depth chart (in April or August) is if many of our top CB's were hurt. And that's the ONLY way Arrington will likely see the field.

 

[ALP]

On April 28,4 whole months before the season starts,is no time to be discussing depth charts,skippy......That's,NOT what I was proposing.The poster asked me nicely to give my opinion of which CB's might get cut.

I gave a reasoned opinion on Arrington at RCB,behind the starter(Leigh Bodden).....that doesn't put him #2,3 or 4........just behind Leigh Bodden...period.

Next,whereas,Butler,Springs and maybe,McCourty have Safety capabilities,it makes McGowan,who is a one-trick pony,imao.......superfluous.Same with Lockett It doesn't have anything to do with Alexander......I was asked my opinion on defensive backs,not LB's.

Lastly,my comment on keeping an extra LB has to do with LB's who will actually play......ummm,,,,
Linebacker.......I'll get back you on my birthday,August 28,regarding a depth chart.

i find it interesting how high you are on arrington, however, u call mcGowan a one trick pony....wasnt he the guy who covered some stellar TE's during at the very least the 1st half of the year? such as gonzalez and clark?

also....slater....why call him a binky? cuz i certaintly dont like him, not if we can have mcourty, a the 3rd CB returning kicks...

 

[italia44]

i find it interesting how high you are on arrington, however, u call mcGowan a one trick pony....wasnt he the guy who covered some stellar TE's during at the very least the 1st half of the year? such as gonzalez and clark?

also....slater....why call him a binky? cuz i certaintly dont like him, not if we can have mcourty, a the 3rd CB returning kicks...

No....NO......binky was sarcasm about Slater.He's not my binky,he's BB's.......That's why I put "don't get me started" in parentheses

 

[italia44]

Read your original comment. It has everything to do with it since you were the one who stated "I think Lockett and McGowan will both be gone, since BB will keep an extra LB."

First of all, we need at minimum 4 safeties--regardless of keeping extra LB's. You were the one who made the coorelation.

Cutting McGowan or Lockett who are both safeties has absolutely nothing to do with keeping an extra LB. We use 3 safety big nickle formations, so obviously we'll need at least 4 safeties at worst. Not to mention that McGowan was a specialty player who kept future HOF'er Tony Gonzelez to an absolute minimum. I don't know why you'd mess with success at a stable position, based on your "opinion" that "Butler, Springs, and McCourty" can play safety (???) That's ridiculous.

And since you were the one who brought up keeping an extra LB, why will it be a problem when we just cut AD, will cut Alexander, and Burgess likely will not be resigned? That already just freed up 3 LB positions for Cunningham, Spikes, and Crable/Woods. Why would it be a problem anyway?

As far as Kyle Arrington getting actual game reps behind Bodden--the only possible way he could break ANY depth chart (in April or August) is if many of our top CB's were hurt. And that's the ONLY way Arrington will likely see the field.

Ahhhhh....the Big Nickle.....I'm glad you brought that up.BB doesn't want to play "Big" nickle,he wants to play "little" nickle.Here's why:

The big 5 started in 2008,the idea being to make up for the deficiency of having to play Tedy next to Mayo.

In 2009,it was to help with the problem of Mayo injured and playing out of position,next to Guyton.

If you can't use an LB......he tried to fix this with a hybrid.....hence the value of having an additional SS like McGowan or Hybrid,like Tank Williams.

The problem with this is we play a base 3-4,on 3rd down,you want to go little 5(another DB),not
big 5(another SS).Watch film of the games in the 2nd half of the season last yr.You know who BB was using as a weak-side blitzer?........No?...
Johnathan Wilhite....pathetic.

In this defense,you want to bring a FS like Meriweather or NB like McCourty/Butler into the box,not McGowan.....because he is a one-trick pony,because he can't "wheel" out of the box and play FS.........Sanders and Chung can....BM -No.

This isn't about safeteys,it's about STRONG safetys.........If you have an ILB in place next to Mayo,you need 2.......just 2.....FS are different,in a nickle you can carry more.......why?...because they're faster and better to blitz with.

So it is about the linebacker in the 3-4,you only want 2 SS and that's Sanders and Chung..Making McGowan the odd man out.Playing a 3rd affects the little nickle and I don't think that is the direction,BB wan't to go.

 

[ALP]

Ahhhhh....the Big Nickle.....I'm glad you brought that up.BB doesn't want to play "Big" nickle,he wants to play "little" nickle.Here's why:

The big 5 started in 2008,the idea being to make up for the deficiency of having to play Tedy next to Mayo.

In 2009,it was to help with the problem of Mayo injured and playing out of position,next to Guyton.

If you can't use an LB......he tried to fix this with a hybrid.....hence the value of having an additional SS like McGowan or Hybrid,like Tank Williams.

The problem with this is we play a base 3-4,on 3rd down,you want to go little 5(another DB),not
big 5(another SS).Watch film of the games in the 2nd half of the season last yr.You know who BB was using as a weak-side blitzer?........No?...
Johnathan Wilhite....pathetic.

In this defense,you want to bring a FS like Meriweather or NB like McCourty/Butler into the box,not McGowan.....because he is a one-trick pony,because he can't "wheel" out of the box and play FS.........Sanders and Chung can....BM -No.

This isn't about safeteys,it's about STRONG safetys.........If you have an ILB in place next to Mayo,you need 2.......just 2.....FS are different,in a nickle you can carry more.......why?...because they're faster and better to blitz with.

So it is about the linebacker in the 3-4,you only want 2 SS and that's Sanders and Chung..Making McGowan the odd man out.Playing a 3rd affects the little nickle and I don't think that is the direction,BB wan't to go.

wait, so youre saying meriweather is limited to what? he cant wheel out of the box, meaning he cant move back and play deep if he starts the play in the box? i consider meriwether our safety with the most range....

plus at end of two seasons ago he seemed effective in blitzing, and i think hes pretty good in run support

 

[italia44]

wait, so youre saying meriweather is limited to what? he cant wheel out of the box, meaning he cant move back and play deep if he starts the play in the box? i consider meriwether our safety with the most range....

plus at end of two seasons ago he seemed effective in blitzing, and i think hes pretty good in run support

No,I said McGowan is no good with this.....he can't rotate out of the box.

EDIT:I see now how I confused you.......BM is Brandon McGowan,not Meriweather

Meriweather is perfect for this........fast,runs with his head up.....can fake the blitz and play press.You're gonna see him used like this in 2010.

 

[ALP]

No,I said McGowan is no good with this.....he can't rotate out of the box.

EDIT:I see now how I confused you.......BM is Brandon McGowan,not Meriweather

Meriweather is perfect for this........fast,runs with his head up.....can fake the blitz and play press.You're gonna see him used like this in 2010.

isnt mcgowan the guy who shut down the best TE's last year though? which was a long standing issue with pats teams?

 

[italia44]

isnt mcgowan the guy who shut down the best TE's last year though? which was a long standing issue with pats teams?

He was a big part of it,I say part, because BB/Pees were using a kind of bracket coverage on the TE.This is also why they drafted Patrick Chung.
However,it's much better if you can get your SILB to do this.

 

[stcjones]

WhoIs better? Ibelieve ppl mix them up and honestly I do not remember specifics for either from last year. Who has the broken wrists, and who is th one that was always an inch away from breaking up multiple passes last year

also realize that springs may be the one who gets cut and therefore we will keep both these guys which I don't think either is as bad as Hobbs

Wilhite got torched like a cigar alot last year....he was awful overall....

 

[Synovia]

i remember wilhite covering the #2 reciever agaisnt Indy, and im sure it happened where he covered either the #1 wr at other games, or that he covered other #2 wr's....

he did not always go up against the #3, and #4 wr's of a team...
i would say butler was the 3rd cb for most of the season

and I did not watch the houston game, so cant comment on that

Don't worry about it, people don't need facts here, they just make **** up.


For about 75% of the snaps last year, Wilhite covered the outsider receiver on one side while Bodden covered the outside receiver on the other side. The patriots don't break down their coverages by receiver number, they do it by the side of the field.


The fact that there are people on here trying to make talent judgments who don't know that simple fact is mind boggling.

 

[Synovia]

sorry,but your confusing Cornerbacks and Nicklebacks........Hobbs was a RCB,generally covering the oppositions #2.........In this pairing,the LCB(Samuels,Revis,etc) covers the #1 receiver.......this is generally true as right-handed QB's prefer the right side line of sight,t0 the left side.Also,right handed receivers(the norm)prefer the right side.

To give him at least a little credit,Wilhite has played the harder LCB position,however ineptly.....while Wheatly has shown absolutely nothing during his interlude at RCB and NB.

What Wheatley and Wilhite don't have is "closing speed".......Bodden does,as does Darius Butler and hopefully Devin McCourty.Ellis Hobbs was one of the fastest straight-line corners,I've ever seen,but had little "closing" speed.

How exactly do you measure "Closing speed"? Or, is it just some stupid amorphous term for "I don't like this guy".


Wilhite's problem isn't "closing speed". Its poor ball awareness. He covers guys just fine, he just allows too many balls to be completed on good coverage.

And no, the the #1WR isn't generally on the left side. He's generally on the side where the weaker CB is. Teams move their wide receivers a lot more than teams move their cornerbacks.

 

[emoney_33]

For about 75% of the snaps last year, Wilhite covered the outsider receiver on one side while Bodden covered the outside receiver on the other side. The patriots don't break down their coverages by receiver number, they do it by the side of the field.

Where do you get this number? I don't remember Wilhite on the outside a great deal last year?

 

[ALP]

He was a big part of it,I say part, because BB/Pees were using a kind of bracket coverage on the TE.This is also why they drafted Patrick Chung.
However,it's much better if you can get your SILB to do this.

i see, why is it better if the SILB does this? i though his job is to fight off OL....