What's the move you want to see before the season starts?

[captain stone]

Moves I'd still like to see:
Sign FB/RB Brian Leonard
Sign (if healthy) Dustin Keller
Trade for WR Andre Johnson
Be on the lookout for a Swing Tackle
Revisit OLB Quentin Groves & CB Terrell Thomas
Bring in SSs Reed Doughty & Kenny Phillips for workouts

 

[PatFanCraig]

Look I don't care what a LB weighs as long as he is explosive enough to flash on a scene and take a ball carrier off his feet. Bill thought he was getting spikes size and Willis explosiveness in Hightower. Hasn't been the case. When broadcasters called him out for TEs leaving him in their dust and ball carriers crossing his face like he was in quicksand I hoped it was just a rookie unsure of himself. But he did appear to lack burst/agility. In addition to coverage limitations and RBs running by him there's another concern with him. League is getting faster and more explosive. Including QBs. I don't want to see the defense do its job then Wilson or Kaepernick dart for a 60 yard TD while running right by Hightower. He has struggled and there's more excuses for him than impact plays. Can't help but notice all the standout impact LBs are nowhere near 270+. So I think if he plays closer to prototype size he can be nearly as explosive as them but packaged in his big frame. That would make him a wrecking ball for us who can hold map or Wilson to a minimal gain while making them pay. And Mayo is very good,he just isn't quite as good as Willis/Bowman. I think at closer to prototype weight of successful LBs Hightower can make those splash plays.


I'm aware of Finleys' probs but we are the patriots. Our system/discipline/work ethic/leadership/accountability clears us of many problems most teams deal with. I expect better of our team. Ocho was 33/34 and declined. His ypc was already down the previous 2 seasons and he didn't do jack anywhere after here either. Cinci refused to trade him all those years then suddenly dumped him on us. I never was for bringing him in. I told my friends at the time I didn't want another has been. And we need our own young wr talent or at least somebody in his prime. As for Jermichael, Bill drafted so many bust TEs to run his 2TE set he has always dreamed of. He finally found them but one is often injured and the other a secret sociopath. Jermichael IMHO fits us well. He would get lots of passes because bill likes, no loves the mismatch of 2TE sets. Given Jermichaels blocking with his elite pass catching skills He and Gronk would create more mismatches than Gronk/Hernandez. They both block extremely well so when in 2te formations we can call a run play if the defense is in nickel/dime to defend Finley/Gronk. Which resusults in a big gain running the ball with Finley/Gronk being like 2 extra tackles blocking. Its a mismatch either way.

Edelman/Amendola are fine slots and move the chains nicely,that's no worry there. I'm not however in favor of having them both on the field simultaneously. Neither makes many catches beyond 6/7 yards then squirt for a couple more. Which is a slots job, move the chains. But I really like Kenbrell who I'm very confident has a breakout at the Z and Dobson who I believe has a breakout as well at X. That's awesome intermediate outside the hash and deep speed and athleticism we haven't had in a while. As a matter of fact I would like to see Boyce develop a rapport with Brady and get a couple snaps from the slot to rock defenses back on their heels. He would break a defenses concentration due to having to rethink and adjust to how they guard the slot when he is in there because he is a threat to score on any play. He brings the same explosiveness from the slot as Cooks/Austin/Cobb/Wright. Coupled with Finley/Gronk physicality we could keep these dominant Defenses on their heels and punch them back in the mouth. More on that later!!

 

[Sciz]

Moves I'd still like to see:
Sign FB/RB Brian Leonard
Sign (if healthy) Dustin Keller
Trade for WR Andre Johnson
Be on the lookout for a Swing Tackle
Revisit OLB Quentin Groves & CB Terrell Thomas
Bring in SSs Reed Doughty & Kenny Phillips for workouts

The Eagles cut Kenny Phillips before last season. The Eagles had Patrick Chung as a starting safety last season. That should tell you all you need to know. Phillips' chronic knee injuries aren't just at the point where he can't stay on the field. They've taken away his NFL-caliber athleticism even when he was healthy enough to practice.

 

[RayClay]

As far as I can tell, the lightest full-season starter for the Patriots under Belichick was Gary Guyton at 245. Only Don Davis has started any games under 240.

Yeah, it's a totally different type player. Don Davis played some safety too, which shows you where he "weighed in" compared to the typical Patriots linebacker.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah, it's a totally different type player. Don Davis played some safety too, which shows you where he "weighed in" compared to the typical Patriots linebacker.

Yeah, but Mayo's only, like, a top 3-10 LB in the league. He's not one of the two that Craig apparently thinks are the best, so that's, somehow, something hugely important when it comes to Hightower.

 

[PatFanCraig]

This is a copycat league. Those guys payed all that $$ to copy the champions lol. Build a dominant defense with good pass rush/explosive LBs and a fast physical secondary with size the scare WRs. Congrats Seattle. You guys are pop culture icons. NY/LA/Seattle. In pop culture Seattle revolutionized rock music as radically as the beginning of rock itself. Nirvana/Soundgarden/Pearle Jam/New model to control the pass happy nfl. City of pop culture innovation. lol.

OK building a dominant defense and big athletic corners is what everybody wants to do so they can be the next Superbowl champions. After all Seahawks won that way so you can't even think you have a shot unless you improve your defense almost as good as theirs. You can't cut a record deal unless your of the grunge style now. Right?

Actually its a great idea,nothing at all wrong with building a great defense led by a dominant secondary and pass rush with fast smashmouth LBs. Proven a key to winning. We have our secondary now as many teams are trying to improve theirs. But we got the big prize Revis island. Haha! But why not catch up to those dominant defenses a different way. Go and get a couple powerful athletic smashmouth OLineman capable if punching those bully defenses back in their mouth and make some splash blocks. Dominant defenses have always shut down high scoring defenses because if dominance at the line of scrimmage. The high flying offenses (like us) usually have OLine who are technically sound,double block a defender at the right time and block the correct defenders and allow for blitz puck ups and do a good technical job well enough to allow the elite qb and his playmakers to do their thing and light up a scoreboard. But what happens when they face a menacing defense with multiple menacing pass rushers and explosive blitzing LBs that they can't handle blocking one on one. And there aren't enough blockers to go around to double them all. Like in the 07 super bowl. Then everybody says great defense destroys great offense every time. Even Denver wants a dominant defense now. But why not handle those dominant defenses with a dominant smashmouth OLine of your own. Add some olineman who casn Drive them bully defender's off the line of scrimmage and punch them back in the mouth. Then see how they react when they aren't bullying under skilled technicians on the OLine. They aren't used to that. Then let's see if good defense beats good offense.

I like the idea of converting Halapio a mauler to center and Fleming a power RT to guard and give Seattle a shock in the superbowl they won't expect. Bill isn't big on recoaching players to a new position even if it could be their best position. This thread is for ideas of a move to be made so let's trade for an athletic dominant guard/center. I like Carl Nicks. He is the most dominant guard since Larry Allen when healthy. He was the unanimous best guard in the NFL before missing last year. He is healed now and should return to form. He is still young,very powerful and Sean Payton said he could play left tackle in a pinch and thrive there if needed. Best of all Tampa Bay has expressed interest in trading him to unload some salary and prepare to rebuild. He injects power and explosiveness in our line which could really use it.With Nicks/Solder/Cannon/Vollmer/our young guys,our OLine can can slug with any Defense in the NFL. Very important not just against Seattle but Denver gets some talent back and made some impact additions. Our OLine struggled with them last year and this years defense could very likely be much improved. If Stork doesn't beat out Wendall's it could leave our interior triad the same as last season. Not good! Nicks would be a valuable addition and be the difference of Brady staying upright to get the ball to our playmakers or constantly harassed like last year. So what do you guys think?

 

[supafly]

Congrats Seattle. You guys are pop culture icons. NY/LA/Seattle. In pop culture Seattle revolutionized rock music as radically as the beginning of rock itself. Nirvana/Soundgarden/Pearle Jam/New model to control the pass happy nfl. City of pop culture innovation. lol.

OK building a dominant defense and big athletic corners is what everybody wants to do so they can be the next Superbowl champions. After all Seahawks won that way so you can't even think you have a shot unless you improve your defense almost as good as theirs. You can't cut a record deal unless your of the grunge style now. Right?

Or, it may be argued that grunge itself had an extremely short shelf life, and that the Seahawks aren't anything better than 50/50 to win their own division this year, let alone set a new standard in the NFL for yrs to come.

My guess is that Bill Belichick has probably seen everything that Pete Carrol and the Seahawks did throughout his coaching career, and he probably saw it way back over 30 yrs ago, if not longer than that when his dad coached. I wouldn't imagine that an attacking, pressure defense that plays physically in the secondary, and jams its receivers at the line of scrimmage is really anything all that revolutionary, to be completely honest with you.

I get what you're saying, and you share a very popular belief with a great deal of people, so maybe I'm standing alone in the corner--but I think some of it is overrated just the same.

 

[PatFanCraig]

Or, it may be argued that grunge itself had an extremely short shelf life, and that the Seahawks aren't anything better than 50/50 to win their own division this year, let alone set a new standard in the NFL for yrs to come.

My guess is that Bill Belichick has probably seen everything that Pete Carrol and the Seahawks did throughout his coaching career, and he probably saw it way back over 30 yrs ago, if not longer than that when his dad coached. I wouldn't imagine that an attacking, pressure defense that plays physically in the secondary, and jams its receivers at the line of scrimmage is really anything all that revolutionary, to be completely honest with you.

I get what you're saying, and you share a very popular belief with a great deal of people, so maybe I'm standing alone in the corner--but I think some of it is overrated just the same.

Your right, but trends come and go. Just couple yes ago the franchise qb was must have and QBs were terribly over drafted. They did at least bring the tall athletic corner to attention. Your also right about them repeating. However with teams keying in defense another could be even more dominant like the rams or SF or even Denver. Knight on was dominant and they have some impact defenders returning from injury. They also signed some fa talent. Their pass rush could be ferocious. Who wants to send Wendall's/Connolly out there. I never liked them. Connolly was OK as a center but I knew them guys got by using smoke and mirrors that wasn't going to last. I knew eventually the glass slipper would come off and they were eventually going to be bullied and manhandled and exposed as terrible. These smoke and mirror technicians who need combo I blocking to get by always get exposed in the playoffs when cream puff defenses are sitting out. I'm for injecting some serious power and athleticism in that line. Let's trade for Carl Nicks and play hardball with These defenses. As much credit as Nicks gets he is still one of footballs most underrated. A 345lb dominating mauling guard with the athleticism to play LT and flourish. Much like Larry Allen could. He crashes his whole side of the DLine. His ability is similar to this years #2 overall pick Greg Robinson. Sean Payton has said many times it was a mistake letting him go. He really set a tone. They replaced him with a pro bowl guard yet still missed him. Not to many OLineman can overshadow Jarhi Evans. I think its crucial we make a play for him. I'm for a difference maker type move rather than dozen has beens and below average scrubs. He is the most awesome counter weapon to these dominant pass rushes every team is going all out trying to build. The highlights would look really nice in the afccg and Superbowl pointing out how the patriot OLine sent these dominant defenses running with their tails tucked.

 

[signbabybrady]

And who was our #2 TE last year?

Who was the #2 TE in 01 or 07?

#2 TE isn't a priority it's a luxary. Again I am happy with this off-season and the lack of TE2 might be one of this teams bigger holes especially given Gronks health but to me that highlights that this roster is built very well.

 

[mgteich]

Obviously, it was the same guy it is now with Hooman, but that doesn't mean that they weren't caught off guard just the same with the horrible showing by Sudfeld, and another major injury from Gronkowski.

I agree with you that as long as Gronk plays, our offense should be just fine; however, based on the pattern we've seen lately, it wouldn't hurt to have an actual TE2 who was capable of catching a football every now and then.

I suppose we could sign an injured TE from another team and be in the same situation as last year at this point. I certainly would applaud the signing of Keller.

Last year, we were hoping one of the injured TE's would be our #2. We also had our UDFA hope. I suspect that the team is fine with Williams and the UDFA's competing for the #3 position if there is one.

My point is that we were in a similar position last year at this time. Belichick was fine with Gronk, Hooman, a couple of injured JAG's and an UDFA. I don't think that Belichick thinks that this is a huge concern.

 

[RayClay]

Who was the #2 TE in 01 or 07?

#2 TE isn't a priority it's a luxary. Again I am happy with this off-season and the lack of TE2 might be one of this teams bigger holes especially given Gronks health but to me that highlights that this roster is built very well.

We hardly have needs at other positions. Why would we voluntarily give up the advantage of having the best TE in football and another option, since that can cause matchup nightmares for other teams?

Makes no sense. A decent TE with Hooman asa a third gives us the potential to outflank teams at receiver, RB and TE. Two TEs makes them play both run and pass. Why would we just give that up?

We'll bring in a decent TE cut and he could look like a star with Gronk on the other side.

 

[Sicilian]

Or, it may be argued that grunge itself had an extremely short shelf life, and that the Seahawks aren't anything better than 50/50 to win their own division this year, let alone set a new standard in the NFL for yrs to come.

My guess is that Bill Belichick has probably seen everything that Pete Carrol and the Seahawks did throughout his coaching career, and he probably saw it way back over 30 yrs ago, if not longer than that when his dad coached. I wouldn't imagine that an attacking, pressure defense that plays physically in the secondary, and jams its receivers at the line of scrimmage is really anything all that revolutionary, to be completely honest with you.

I get what you're saying, and you share a very popular belief with a great deal of people, so maybe I'm standing alone in the corner--but I think some of it is overrated just the same.

I agree. I think even Pete Carrol said that anyone trying to recreate what they did last year is going to have a hard time. Having corners that big who can move that well is an incredibly rare thing, and most teams don't have a FS with Thomas' range.

I don't think the Seahawks did anything revolutionary last year. I just think they did a TREMENDOUS job of finding talent and executing on the field with that talent.

 

[patfanken]

I'm certainly not the moral arbiter of anyone or anything, and apologize if I give that impression. I detest "holier than thou" preaching, and I'm (certainly no "grasshopper", to use Pissah's term) just as equal as anyone else of being intolerant at times of other opinions, and have been set straight by others on this board. I also respect the hell out of you and your opinion, so anything you say carries a lot of weight with me. But I have noticed that you've been a lot more "absolute" in your statements recently, and wondered why. And if calling opinions that differ with your own "utter stupidity" isn't being intolerant, I'm not sure what qualifies.

Teams give up on good players and move in different directions all the time. That's why Darrelle Revis is a Patriot right now - because the Bucs changed management and moved in a different direction. Rob Housler hasn't set the world on fire, but he hasn't been a complete bust either. He was drafted by a regime with a different TE philosophy than the current one. We've seen a change of scenery greatly benefit players in the past, and we've also overpaid for guys who didn't pan out. We won't know which is the case unless something happens.

Thanks for that. Perhaps the term you were looking for was "too strident".....and I probably was.

However sometimes some comments ARE utterly stupid and deserve to be called out...as long as you are willing to make a fact based case for your position. Looking at Housler as a potential TE pick up during TC is NOT idiotic. In fact he has some intriguing numbers associated with him. BUT to opine we give up a first day pick the privilege is ALWAYS going to be insane, regardless of how you try and rationalize it.

Sorry if I over reacted a bit. In the end, for me, the thing that will always set me off are the group who will ALWAYS believe that all problems can be solved by adding a Receiver. I guess its because that solution has worked so well for so many other teams.

The good news is in just a few more weeks we will start to get a least some idea of where Hightower, Collins and Mayo will be aligning, and actual football discussions can begin

 

[patfanken]

We hardly have needs at other positions. Why would we voluntarily give up the advantage of having the best TE in football and another option, since that can cause matchup nightmares for other teams?

Makes no sense. A decent TE with Hooman asa a third gives us the potential to outflank teams at receiver, RB and TE. Two TEs makes them play both run and pass. Why would we just give that up?

We'll bring in a decent TE cut and he could look like a star with Gronk on the other side.

Ray you aren't wrong. I could go on for a while talking about some of the advantages a 2 TE formation and the stress it takes on a defense, especially as D's are trending to getting smaller and faster.

BOB was a big believer in the concept. Josh....not so much. I'm in the middle. I believe in a true 2 TE formation. I am less enamored with the 2nd TE being a " pass catcgubg TE variety". I think he thinks why bother with someone like Housler or Keller, when you can get a full time WR like LaFell who will be even more athletic and faster to run the same routes and could be just as good a blocker.

It would seem he are likely maxing out our TE group at 3. That's Gronk, Hooman, and the next best guy from whoever is left. That could be Jones, Watson, or a vet like Finely or Keller. It could end up being no one and the Pats going with just 2 TE's to start the season. A lot will depend on who is standing at WR, RB, QB and OL when the final roster spots are done.

 

[varjao]

If Housler is that good I don't mind spend a 3rd rounder on him, even though this would be a bit of a reach, the issue at the position demands it. And that is what would cost to acquire a good TE in the last draft. It's a crucial part of the offense, he's young, is not coming from surgeries like the other options and we still get a year on the cheap.

Best case scenario is a 4th rounder or something from there + another player. Not sure they have interest in Mallet, the Cardinals just drafted a QB Logan Thomas.

I said if he is that good because to be honest I never seen anything but a highlights video just about now, I'm just tired of the offense going down with Gronk.

 

[RayClay]

Ray you aren't wrong. I could go on for a while talking about some of the advantages a 2 TE formation and the stress it takes on a defense, especially as D's are trending to getting smaller and faster.

BOB was a big believer in the concept. Josh....not so much. I'm in the middle. I believe in a true 2 TE formation. I am less enamored with the 2nd TE being a " pass catcgubg TE variety". I think he thinks why bother with someone like Housler or Keller, when you can get a full time WR like LaFell who will be even more athletic and faster to run the same routes and could be just as good a blocker.

It would seem he are likely maxing out our TE group at 3. That's Gronk, Hooman, and the next best guy from whoever is left. That could be Jones, Watson, or a vet like Finely or Keller. It could end up being no one and the Pats going with just 2 TE's to start the season. A lot will depend on who is standing at WR, RB, QB and OL when the final roster spots are done.

Of course it's not a panacea. They spent two #1's and ended up with a physical specimen who wasn't physical and a great blocker with stone hands.

I'm not undersetimating the murderers talent, but anyone on the other side of Gronk will get opportunities. Hooman is solid, but he's not a great athletic talent. A pass catcher, Hooman and Gronk just gives them an option that they don't have otherwise and won't break the bank IMO. These guys still make a block when needed, even if that's not their forte.

 

[RayClay]

I know nothing about Housler, by the way. Keller would be fine if healthy, IMO. I can't imagine he'd cost that much in a recovery year.

Maybe that UNH guy could step in, but i really doubt it based on his total lack of production.

 

[patchick]

He's a guy SOOOOOO talented that after seeing him start for most of the last 2 years, he has been passed on the Cardinal depth cart by a solid JAG FA, a rookie who hasn't played a snap in the NFL, and a guy (Ballard) who is lucky to walking without a limp.

Ken, IMO one reason Housler intrigues a lot of people is the idea that he wasn't "passed on the depth chart" per se, but that his depth chart has simply been eliminated. He's an h-back/joker on a team that's installing an offense without that position, so they've gone on a signing spree for traditional in-line tight ends.

I do agree that in the desire to replace Hernandez, Pats fans have been guilty of overrating "anybody else" in relation to Hooman and even DJ Williams. (In fact, the league in general has gone a little nuts over the position. How about the 3rd-round pick of Richard Rodgers, another no-block joker/h-back...but unlike Housler, one with lousy speed, agility and route running!)

But in an interesting coincidence, Housler and Hooman each played exactly 13 games with 10 starts last year. Housler had 39 catches, Hooman just 12 -- despite playing in an offense with a Tom Brady desperate for weapons. IMO Housler would be a good addition, for the right price.

 

[mayoclinic]

Thanks for that. Perhaps the term you were looking for was "too strident".....and I probably was.

However sometimes some comments ARE utterly stupid and deserve to be called out...as long as you are willing to make a fact based case for your position. Looking at Housler as a potential TE pick up during TC is NOT idiotic. In fact he has some intriguing numbers associated with him. BUT to opine we give up a first day pick the privilege is ALWAYS going to be insane, regardless of how you try and rationalize it.

Sorry if I over reacted a bit. In the end, for me, the thing that will always set me off are the group who will ALWAYS believe that all problems can be solved by adding a Receiver. I guess its because that solution has worked so well for so many other teams.

The good news is in just a few more weeks we will start to get a least some idea of where Hightower, Collins and Mayo will be aligning, and actual football discussions can begin

I personally consider WR to be one of the more fungible positions, and I consider it ridiculously over-valued in today's NFL. I completely agree with you about being driven crazy by the "all problems can be solved by adding a receiver" philosophy. I like our WR group. I personally value TEs (and RBs with receiving skills) much more than WRs, even those who are primarily receiving options, because I think they create much more versatility for the offense.

As for Housler, I think that TE depth is an area of concern, and he's a decent young player with the chance to excel, so I would be interested in picking him up if he becomes available and the price is reasonable. There will be differences on what constitutes "reasonable", but a day 3 pick or a Mallett trade doesn't seem out of the question to me.

 

[signbabybrady]

We hardly have needs at other positions. Why would we voluntarily give up the advantage of having the best TE in football and another option, since that can cause matchup nightmares for other teams?

Makes no sense. A decent TE with Hooman asa a third gives us the potential to outflank teams at receiver, RB and TE. Two TEs makes them play both run and pass. Why would we just give that up?

We'll bring in a decent TE cut and he could look like a star with Gronk on the other side.

All I was pointing out was that we did not vlountarily give it up the guy got arrested and we have had only one offseason to try and replace him and there were other bigger needs that got prioritized.

If you go back and read my comments it was in response to Darryl questioning why we moved on from two TE. As match as the matchups can be nightmares there are bigger needs than a second TE on a football team and it wasnt something BB felt was needed as much as CB this offseason. I hope we do find someone better than whoman but I have no problem with taking the gamble on Gronk and fixing the D instead of trying to replace TE2.