Welcome to PatsFans.com

What's missing from recent Patriots teams?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by MrTibbs, Nov 17, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MrTibbs

    MrTibbs Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,484
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I'm sure I'm not the only one who wonders what is missing from recent Patriots squads. Since the 04 season I think the play making talent has dropped WAY off. That 04 team was littered with playmakers like Bruschi, Harrison, Vrabel, McGinest and Samuel.

    Since those guys have left I can truly say none of that play making ability has been replaced. The closest thing the Patriots have right now is Merriweather and I mean THAT IS IT on the defensive end and everyone wonders why Belichick went for it on 4th down. I do miss the days of the Patriots being one of the "physical" teams out there but when you think about it the game has changed. It's more of a hands off speed don't hit the wide reciever too hard type of game now. I do see that as a major problem for the recent and current Patriots team. I do think they know they dropped the ball on Samuel. He was the last play making young player the Patriots had on defense.

    Just look back at the Patriots during the Super Bowl against the Eagles. Tell me who were the guys who made the "big plays" in that game? Bruschi with a sack and a pick and Harrison with what, one or two picks? McGinest with pressure and Vrabel doing damage on O and D. We even had a hammer in the run game (Dillon) to keep the Eagles defense honest.

    I do like how they went younger but I don't think it would of hurt to see Darren Sharper signed to help out with a young secondary. It would of been a plus that he also "makes plays" when it counts. Unfortunately I don't see anything out there in this past draft or in this past free agency period that really could of helped them out with the pass rush.


    What's your take on this?
  2. denverpatsfan

    denverpatsfan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Really simple #55
  3. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Messages:
    19,949
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -0

    I think they are missing talented, veteran playmakers but they are now attempting to grow a new generation of them. I think Merriweather, Butler, Mayo and McGowan have the potential to be them. And some borderline or short term playmaking talent may also be developing in Bodden and Pryor and Ninkovitch and Wilhite. Not to mention Wilfork is a beast and Warren is solid as a rock and White has stepped up. But it's a process and you have to walk before you run. In 2000 we had Law and McGinest and Milloy and Bruschi and Johnson and they weren't ready to make any statements even though they'd already been to a Superbowl.

    As for Asante...he didn't make the plays that matter after 2004, either. And he wasn't worth the asking price.

  4. glm

    glm Rookie

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    773
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

  5. Patjew

    Patjew PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    9,608
    Likes Received:
    50
    Ratings:
    +114 / 2 / -1

    No Jersey Selected

    I've been thinking about the 2003 game in Indy. Some real similarities to this past week's game. Pats had a big lead, Colts came storming back, Colts needed a TD at the end to win. The big difference (obviously) was the goal line stand. If the Pats had stopped them there again this time, this would have been another historic win for the team despite the "collapse". Funny how a couple of plays can so dramatically change not only a game's outcome, but also how it's completely perceived.
  6. The Dynasty

    The Dynasty Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,294
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I agree with Mo Lewis. We did lose a bunch of playmakers on D, but we are definitely in the process of regowing some more and I think we have a great group of guys to do this with as he pointed out. Merriweather and McGowan have the ability to both be pro bowlers if not this year in the next few. Chung is a very solid safety for the nickel and dime as well. Mayo already has proven himself. Wilfork is one of the top 5 DL in the league and I pray that we give him the money he deserves.

    As for the pass rush, TBC has done a solid job this year for us. Mike Wright has done more than anyone expected on the DL. Burgess has struggled early in the year but I think he showed some talent on Sunday. I think this team needs to work with what we have and only add on through quality draft picks. We have 3 2nd rounders next year. If we see a franchise DL out there I can see us using some of those picks to help get him. If BB and Co. feels like we can get a quality DL in the draft in the 2nd round then we wait till then and dont trade away any of our 2's. I definitely see the biggest need on this team is a DL that can get after the QB and that should be our #1 priority in next years draft. We are 1 DL and another solid LB away from having another defense that is feared like defenses in the past
  7. Snarf

    Snarf Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    783
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -1

    The biggest loss this team ever had was losing Romeo Crennel and gaining Pees.
  8. bigfandan

    bigfandan Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    Messages:
    524
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    Offense play selection and continuity, at crunch time.

    Offense needs to have a better of flow at end of the game and QB to have (mastery of) base sets of plays that he can run ad lib. No wrist band checking, no sideline watching, no hesitation, no frivilous timeouts. If communication breaks down, QB needs to be able to select from a few plays (say 2 running play, 2 passing plays). Manning is a master at this. In last 4 minutes, he seems to always be able to pick the right play, no huddle, at the line. He does not constantly check and seems very sure, and that flatout scared the sh*t out of any defense. Brady's hestitation, lack of the flow, calling timeout after timeout, even at beginning of drive (after standing on the sideline for 3 minutes) is 100% embarassing, (where was his brain you have to ask) and it served to boost defense's confidence. Brady displayed the same ineptitude at end of jets and bronco games too. The defense was feasting on this. He needs to either ask for the authority to run his plays in the end, or remember to run some basic plays so we don't burn the time outs. Brady looks like a pop warner kiwi leaguer in last 4 minutes, constantly asking for help, checking wrist band, looking bewildered. He does not look like Manning's equal. Manning was a true field general, Brady looked a little leaguer.

    Play selection and play calling in last 4 minutes is the key difference. Colts qb was masterful and fluid; Pats QB needs to match the competency of the other guy.

    Shape up Brady, no one care that you have a preg wife. Learn the play book. Remember them at the crunch time so coach can let you call plays at the end. Also, real Qb don't use wrist bands.

    If he was thinking of preg'd Giselle, he needs to cut off his penis, so that he can put his mind into this game; okay that was overboard. Sorry.

    Don't care to debate on this.
    Peace.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2009
  9. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2006
    Messages:
    2,370
    Likes Received:
    37
    Ratings:
    +88 / 2 / -1

    Lots of things missing.

    Pass Rush is the biggest. That's the reason that we had more "playmakers" on defense. That said, our current playmakers still aren't up to par with our old playmakers, pass rush being equal.

    Veteran leadership on defense... too many second half collapses to think we have guys who really know how to finish games. We used to force fumbles at the goal line all the time and come up with huge sacks in the 4th.

    Solid running attack. The only way we gain yards on the run is if we catch the defense by surprise. Otherwise this running game is weak sauce.

    Adam Vinatieri. Ghost is a better kicker in many ways, but teams were afraid in the final minutes of games and made mistakes because they didn't want Adam to get the last shot.

    Luck. It took this to win three Super Bowls in four years. Obviously despite the best laid plans of mice and men, sometimes the breaks don't go your way in the big games. We used to always win the battles of inches.

    Personnel. So much talent lost in Pioli, Dimitroff, Weis, Crennel, McDaniels... these guys helped to build the dynasty and they are all gone.

    That said, this is one of the better teams in the NFL. Like 29-31 other teams (depending on the year) we struggle to beat good teams on the road.

    The biggest problem is we got burned by Jason Taylor this offseason. That would have made a huge difference, but what can you do?
  10. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2006
    Messages:
    4,370
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    To put it simply, a pass rush rush. It has killed them for many years. If they can sign Peppers in the off season as I don't think the Pats will find anybody that can play OLB in a 3-4, it would really help. However, I'd be worried signing a 31 year old player waiting for his pay day. In fact, I'd be afraid he may dog it like someone else we know (Adalius Thomas?) after getting paid.

    Honorable mention: Consistent run blocking.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2009
  11. CampPen33

    CampPen33 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Messages:
    636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    If this offense could do just that, we wouldn't need a defense. :cool:
  12. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    38,762
    Likes Received:
    415
    Ratings:
    +881 / 6 / -16

    #87 Jersey


    Yup ..... :yeahthat: ... Pees is good but RAC was the greatest short of Bill himself.
  13. MrTibbs

    MrTibbs Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,484
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Yes you guys are making great points. The run game did get us to the bowl in the 07 playoffs but other then that it's been quite mediocre.
  14. RayClay

    RayClay On the Roster

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
    Messages:
    18,381
    Likes Received:
    248
    Ratings:
    +637 / 6 / -9

    #75 Jersey

    Just look at the injury riddled 2003 team and how they battled til the last second every game. They gave you a heart attack every game, but intimidated the opposition with our will to win no matter what, to play 60 minutes and save our time outs and make all the plays at the end.

    2005, our personnel battled but the flesh was weak. Since 2007, we want to win the easy way. If we can't pile up a 30 point lead, we try for gimmicks like 4th down all or nothing gambles because some stat book says it's a good idea. Or hail Mary passes to a quadruple covered Moss. We actually played some solid balanced ball last year because we couldn't just show up and put up 40 points.

    I have confidence our defense would have battled til the end and made Peyton earn it. Instead we assumed our defense couldn't defend or make any big plays.

    Sounds like the way other teams used to play as we battled to the end to beat them. Given the lead and ability to defend with good field position, we felt our only chance was one spin of the roulette wheel.

    Let's face it, we have become front runners. There's still time to change the attitude and we do have plenty of play makers on defense IMO, if we let the young players play when it counts.

    We still have the talent to set scoring records and lead the league in statistics, if we want to. Trying to pile up a lot of points and hope the clock runs out before the other team catches up, wins sometimes too. Of course, it succeeds less the farther you go in the playoffs, as hunger, determination and willingness to fight for 60 minutes becomes relatively more important.

    We have a great team. If we go back to playing the way we did when we won titles, we should be the favorite IMO.
  15. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    30,025
    Likes Received:
    323
    Ratings:
    +814 / 5 / -3

    The common theme of the three Super Bowl teams was a hard nosed, opportunistic defense that would knock the peiss out of you. Every time one of those young receivers of Indy caught the ball, they would have smacked them in the mouth and made them think twice about catching the ball the next time.

    Also, missing is the exotic defenses. I think this is personnel AND coaching related. The Pats did a far better job hiding their rushes and coverages. They had a lot more delayed blitzes and rushes. A guy like McGinest wasn't the fastest guy from the edge, but these schemes would allow him to out smart the guy up in front of him.

    I agree that this is a defense in transition. They seem to have several good young pieces to build around. They need to improve the LBing corp other than Mayo and then they can be a dominant defense again. There will be several OLB potentials out there in free agency (Both Peppers and Merriman will be out on the market) and they have plenty of picks to load up.
  16. NE_Paddy

    NE_Paddy Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    That's a big pile of bollox. The lot of it.
  17. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    12,757
    Likes Received:
    208
    Ratings:
    +502 / 0 / -2

    The main thing that's missing is a Super Bowl win, obviously.

    From 2005-2008 we were missing speed on defense, which was a big defect.

    Right now the only things that are missing are (1) a better pass rush, (2) experience in our defense, (3) more commitment to the running game and offensive balancce, and (4) more experience from our OC's. Most of those are correctable this season.
  18. Spiral

    Spiral PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,010
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +23 / 1 / -0

    Part of it is coaching.

    I remember a pre-season game (against the Saints, I think) when Ellis Hobbs was a rookie. He jumped a sideline route and just missed a pick-6. The ball went through his hands and the receiver caught it. They yanked Hobbs out of the game, sat him on the bench and started to let him have it. In some cases, the coaches may be coaching the play-making ability out of the players.
  19. borg

    borg Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    3,906
    Likes Received:
    67
    Ratings:
    +148 / 8 / -13

    The problems:
    Colvin.....semi whiff
    Thomas...whiff
    Burgess....whiff
    Big bucks with little impact.

    Maroney....WHIFF.....from the Globe article about redzone offense ... Mike Martz stated that a monster back is not necessary on the goal line, just a back with a nose to find the hole/seam/crease. LoMo ain't that back. Losing both Taylor and Morris has been devastating to redzone scoring.

    Koppens...is it my bad eyes or am I correctly seeing the NGs blowing up the center of the line on critical running plays.

    What's missing:
    A Willie McGuinest type , jack-of-all trades. Since this type of player doesn't drop in the draft or make it to free agency too often, BB has been forced to pay up for the flawed next-best.

    Clock Killin Corey Dillon...A hammer with a nose for the opening....a rare combo

    G/C/G...the center of the line. .. Coming into the season, I viewed Neal, Koppens, and Mankins as the strength of the line with the ability to get push forward. I haven't seen it though. Tackles are slipping by these guys and busting up the backfield too often. I would like to see a monster roadgrading guard get inserted on the line for those 1 yard wars that get fought too often. Neal use to be a force. Light/Mankins became the strength the past couple years...but not now.
  20. The Dynasty

    The Dynasty Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,294
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Disagree with these points. I truely think Maroney is starting to come around. He has 4 TDs in his last 4 games and it seems like he is starting to run with a purpose. He fumbled on the goaline last week yes, but that could have been anyone in all honesty. It was a great hit right on the ball by the defense. Would we be saying this if it were Morris or Taylor?

    I completely disagree with your center of the line statement. Neal, Mankins and Koppen have had solid years in my opinion. The weak link on the OL this year has been Kazur. It has been discussed on other threads that when Light comes back he will move to RT and Vollmer stays at LT.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>