Welcome to PatsFans.com

What You Can and Cannot Do in a War.

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IcyPatriot, Jan 12, 2012.

  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    38,741
    Likes Received:
    412
    Ratings:
    +874 / 6 / -16

    #87 Jersey

    Feel free to add your own ... this is in response to the soldiers pissing on the people they killed.

    1: You can use Willy Pete even though it burns innocent children, women and men.

    2: You can drop bombs on the wrong buildings as long as you say your sorry and pay the families of the innocent dead.

    3: You can drop the inhumane cluster bombs that kill and maim innocent women, children and men.

    4: You can invade a country based on false information.

    5: You can assassinate foreigners as long as it's not government people pulling the trigger.

    6: You cannot take a leak on a dead body ... nope ... you cannot do this.

    That's it for now ... does anyone have any more? Now imagine if killing those innocent Iraqi people had created such an outrage ... imagine that for a moment. Many American service people would still be with their families instead of lying in the ground ... dead.
  2. Texxx

    Texxx Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Messages:
    245
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +15 / 22 / -33

    Why in the hell should their be "rules" such as all of these when we're talking about war?? The point is to decimate your enemy into making them surrender. The reality is that innocent people are going to get killed most likely, soldiers will get killed from friendly fire from their own team, and people are going to get slaughtered. You don't really seem to be understanding what is involved when it comes to war and what it entails. I know a lot of that sounds harsh, but that's why war sucks and should be avoided at all costs if that's possible. If it isn't, then that's the reality.
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    41,400
    Likes Received:
    135
    Ratings:
    +262 / 10 / -26

    This is that hearts and minds thing ... imo social media, camera's & smart phones should not be part of the battle front. There is probably a ton of this crap lying around.

    This is not a submission hold, it is desecrating the dead. Imagine if the same pix showed up of the taliban peeing on dead soldiers, imagine the outrage.

    Another side effect of the horrors of war..
  4. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,821
    Likes Received:
    48
    Ratings:
    +100 / 0 / -1

    No Jersey Selected

    Texx - This is the basic point I was attempting to make in a discussion with my wife last night while we were watching NBC Nightly news when the Peeing video was being discussed.

    In my opinion it is a modern day Catch-22. I love military history (specifically the American Civil War and WW2) so one must understand that my "point" is coming from examining those episodes.

    In my opinion if a country finds itself with war as the only option; I am against lashing out and attacking a country for "no reason", I prefer if we must fight, it is to defend ourselves from an obvious threat.

    That being said, I am also of the opinion that if you are going to fight, you fight, all out, total war. None of this rules of engagement (up to the point of targeting innocents deliberately).

    I used Sherman's March to the Sea as an example of "Total War" where one side destroys the ability and, more importantly, the will of its opponent to fight; beating them into submission. Another example would be the daily US bombing/ UK night bombing in WW2. Granted through our modern eyes, "carpet bombing" is no longer a reality since he have "smart" bombs, but at the time, carpet bombing was both state of the art, as well as a means to conduct a Total War.

    Now having said that, to Darryl's point, having smart phones taking videos to put on youtube is dumb. Its a friggin war, what good is going to come out of video taping soldiers in the heat of battle, or in this case seemingly just after that moment?

    Peeing on a dead adversary probably isnt "the right" thing to do (although it is any less right than just killing him?). It could easily be said that this type of stuff has happened throughout the history of war, just people didnt have iPhones to capture and share it. On top of which, it certainly paints the US military as a whole with a negative light.

    War does suck. Its an awful, crappy, wasteful thing, which leads to so much "unnecessary" destruction. But you are right, this example is just one of the many awful things which happens in war. Our troops have my full support; always have. And being someone who has never been put in a situation where someone is out right trying to kill me; while I find the actions shown in the video distasteful, I cant say much more than that as a judgement because I haven't the slightest clue of what those guys were in (battle/fight wise) prior to that camera being turned on.
  5. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    15,786
    Likes Received:
    309
    Ratings:
    +513 / 9 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    Yes, and I am sure that every Iraqi who sees these American soldiers peeing on their dead loved ones will really feel like surrendering now.
  6. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,821
    Likes Received:
    48
    Ratings:
    +100 / 0 / -1

    No Jersey Selected

    Did they come out and say where the video was from? Not that it matters, but they were "guessing" it was Afghanistan last night. Wasn't sure if that had changed.
  7. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    15,786
    Likes Received:
    309
    Ratings:
    +513 / 9 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    Sorry, you're right. Afghanistan it was.

    The thought remains the same. There's not going to be a soul anywhere in the Mideast who's going to feel like "surrendering" to Americans after seeing that video.

    I'd imagine that there are allies who aren't going to be too comfortable with it, either.
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    39,801
    Likes Received:
    168
    Ratings:
    +531 / 2 / -9

    Also, imagine if GW Bush were the Commander In Chief, remember the Abba Dabba Prison and the Muslim with Ladies Underwear on his head, Nancy (teeth) Pelosi said she vomitted when she saw the photo of the Muslim being led around on a Dog Leash, has Nancy seen OBAMA"s Marines pissing on these guys yet....:confused:

    Aren't these Taliban the same people that behead screaming gurgling human beings on Live TV...................:confused:
  9. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    41,400
    Likes Received:
    135
    Ratings:
    +262 / 10 / -26

    So you did not read my post and just reacted like an old fool with an agenda.
  10. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    15,786
    Likes Received:
    309
    Ratings:
    +513 / 9 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    Harry seems to think that as long as someone else does something first it's ok to do the same things.

    As long as the yardstick he uses to measure by is the absolute worst behaviour he can find he assures himself he'll never come up short.
  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,675
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    My daughter and I had a similar discussion. She saw the picture and asked me what had happened. I told her and her response was "They bomb houses and kill children and THAT's what is outrageous?". Love that kid.
  12. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    15,786
    Likes Received:
    309
    Ratings:
    +513 / 9 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    I think the argument would be something like this:

    (and this is not "my" argument, so don't anyone start accusing me of being a warmonger or apologist or anything else, please.)

    All of the atrocities one country commits on another country in the name of war can be excused by necessity, accident or mistake - i.e.: It is sometimes necessary to use horrible weapons. It is sometimes accidental that innocent civilians are killed. Mistakes sometimes happen and a bomb/bullet hits the wrong target.

    Desecrating the dead can, in no way, shape or form, be rationalized in the same manner. It is never necessary to pee on a dead body. It is never an accident if you pee on a dead body. It is never a mistake when you pee on a dead body.

    It is a deliberate act and there is no explanation which will make it not so.
  13. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    39,801
    Likes Received:
    168
    Ratings:
    +531 / 2 / -9

    Will the Media and the Democrats in Washington treat "Obama's Marines" the same way they treated "Bush's Soldiers" will we see The Pissing Picture plastered on the NY Times front page day after day as we did "The Dog Leash Lady" will Chris (mush mouth matthews) be drooling and spitting about "The Pissers" for the next month as he did with "The Dog Leash Lady"

    WILL NANCY (skank blinky teeth) Pelosi run for the Ladies Room in front of the camera's and Vomit as she did with The Dog Leash Lady.

    WILL THERE BE ANY LEFT WING DEMOCRAT OBAMA MEDIA OUTRAGE AS THERE WAS WITH BUSH

    :confused:
  14. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,500
    Likes Received:
    66
    Ratings:
    +189 / 0 / -4

    #75 Jersey

    And to prove the moral equivalence between al-Qaeda and the U.S. the soldiers are to be court-martialed.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  15. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    41,400
    Likes Received:
    135
    Ratings:
    +262 / 10 / -26

    Equivalence or difference?? Or to demonstrate the high standards that we expect from our military..
  16. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,979
    Likes Received:
    186
    Ratings:
    +429 / 5 / -2

    I think this is one of those unfortunate incidents that looks worse than it is when it's video taped. I'd slap these guys on the wrist personally. They peed on dead people who are, or were, trying to kill them. For those of us who see it from the comfort of our kitchens and sofa's, who haven't the slightest clue of what it feels like to be in combat, be shot at, or see our friends die, it's easy to be appauled. I think for those in the proverbial "sh*t" so to speak, this comes with the territory. Unfortunately, the administrations magnification of this incident, is making it much, much worse than it actually is. I think sometimes we're our own worst enemy.


    PS - I don't condone in any way, whizzing on dead people, or what these guys did. I just don't think it's as unconscionable as some may. These guys are in combat, being shot at, and watching their friends be killed. I'd slap them on the wrist, as opposed to treat them as some bunch of war criminals.
  17. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    12,961
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +201 / 2 / -2

    I assume your take on this also applies to attacks such as 9/11?
  18. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,821
    Likes Received:
    48
    Ratings:
    +100 / 0 / -1

    No Jersey Selected

    That's about where I am too RW. While I could see peeing on a dead enemy is "disrespectful" for lack of a better term by some people, who am I to pass that judgment from my temperature controlled living room, sitting on my sofa with my wife and two dogs? No one is trying to shoot or blow me or my buddies up and absent of that I can't say that it was completely out of the ordinary/wrong. I do see Mrs.PFnVA's point about mistakes happening in the heat of battle vs an incident like this where it isnt in the heat of the moment, and thus is different. However one could assume that the based on the video, the "heat of the battle" perhaps ending just prior.

    That being said things like this have happened throughout military history. Two examples I can think of is the Japanese in WW2 and recently AQ in Iraq where they would cut off the genitals of captured American troops and stuff them in the solider's mouth before killing them (as the ultimate sign of disrespect in their respective cultures before the finishing move).

    PS - I am not trying to offend anyone with the graphic nature of the last paragraph, just bringing up historical context. I apologize in advance if someone is offended.
  19. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    15,786
    Likes Received:
    309
    Ratings:
    +513 / 9 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    Forgive me if my own brand of patriotism is different than anyone else's.

    I, as an American, am not embarassed, humiliated or ashamed when an enemy does something far beyond the pale of decency. It does not speak of me or mine, it does not reflect upon my history, my culture, my country.

    I am, however, greatly affected by what my country does in any given situation. What we pride ourselves on is our greatness - our intelligence, our compassion, our higher standards which we hold ourselves to and expect others to try to match, In other words, our superiority as a nation and as a people. Those are the things that sets us apart from Japan and Iran and Afghanistan and every other country we've ever waged war with. It is how we identify ourselves and it is how we expect other to identify us.

    We train our soldiers to face the "heat of the battle," in the American tradition - not in the tradition of barbarians who cannot and will not contain themselves.

    Yes, I understand things happen. I understand bad things happen. I understand no one's perfect and good people sometimes do bad things. I also understand that yes, this was a bad as it looked. It was 4 representatives of our government, our world, our country, laughing, joking and pissing on dead men from another government, another world, another country. Even worse, it was our sons and husbands and fathers pissing on the dead sons, husbands and fathers of some one else.

    I'm pretty sure they don't appreciate it or forgive it any better than we would.

    If the Taliban is looking for a recruitment poster we couldn't have handed them anything better.
  20. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,979
    Likes Received:
    186
    Ratings:
    +429 / 5 / -2

    I don't disagree with your general point, or sentiment. I just think combat is a lot different than everyday life. These guys don't go home after a togh shift, crack a cold one, and cool off on the couch. They don't come home and vent with their wife, or have their kid's smile to get them to calm down. These guys are in a daily grind, where every minute could basically be their last. Situations where savage primitives are trying to kill them in any way possible. Be it by shooting at them, bombing them from afar with mortars or rockets, or booby trapping kids and dogs in the streets. I think there has to be a certain expectation of fury here. That expectation doesn't mean accepting incidents like these, and looking the other way either. It simply means that some things are just going to happen, and when they do, they should be treated in context of the situation, the environment, the action, and the actual crime. I'd be more upset if they whizzed on prisoners, as crazy as that may sound, than I am their whizzing on the dead. Either way, I do think they should be reprimanded for their actions. I just don't think this is a situation where hell should be paid. Stuff like this should be downplayed by the administration. Issues of torture or unjustified killings are what should be treated with a firm hand. IMO anyway.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>