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What We've Been Saying about Schools

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by BelichickFan, Jun 30, 2007.

  1. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Shown here :

    http://enlightennj.blogspot.com/2005/06/new-jersey-school-funding-compared-to.html

    In the example, poor districts had about 50% more spent per kid and, yet, the performance was dismal (50+% below proficient) compared to the middle and upper class performance (7% below proficient). That was English, Math was worse with a shocking 75% below proficient in the poor districts.

    It's not about money like the Libs try to say. It's about the kids and parents who care and value education. Nothing more, nothing less. Until it changes at home it won't change.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2007
  2. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    I should add that the $$$ value is shocking to me. They average to about $12.5K per student.

    In my kids' elementary school they have 20 kids per class through 3rd grade then 32 in 4th and 5th. Using these numbers that's $250K per K-3 grade and $400K for 4th/5th.

    Subtracting about $50K for a veteran teacher and another $50K for the teacher's benefits that still leaves $150K and $300K per class unaccounted for, slipping into the black hole of administration. Wow.
  3. DarrylS

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    No it is not about the money, but the quality of education offered.. the inequities of the chart exhibit the difference between inner city and suburban cities. With that being said not that familiar with New Jersey Counties.

    The reality is that poverty causes a whole bunch of issues related to education, rental properties that sometimes have lead paint on the walls leading to learning issues, poor pre and post natal care, poor nutrition, lack of identification of early childhood learning disorders, probably the increased use of electronic baby sitting and on and on.. the end result is that there are different learning needs for different populations. If a child has a learning issue in a wealthy suburb, it is often identified earlier by a doctor and remediation of that issue is offered earlier. In the city the child's parents may bring the child to a clinic, and the need is not identified earlier. In the wealthy suburbs if the child has a specific learning need then the process starts with specialists often earlier. In the city it is not identified until they have to, because the cost of id is staggering, and then a whole bunch of stuff gets triggered.

    The charts you exhibit are related to the No Child Left Behind legislation, supposedly non partisan, but regulated very much in a partisan way. These are the bane of the public school systems right now and may dictate the way inner city schools are managed and by whom in the very near future. Bottom line is that if you have a child in a wealthy suburb who has something like Ausbergers Syndrome the child goes to a special class offered by the school system or a private school, and then the parents because of their economic resourcefulness can have a whole host of support services kick in after school and during vacation. If you are a struggling parent in the city with a child of the same needs, the special services of the school kick in, but after the school day ends you are on your own, you might not be able to work extra or at all because of the child's special needs.

    The bottom line is that poverty is a cycle, some people can break it, but when you look at some of these families closely and how they interact, often their children repeat the same mistakes as their parents did. I am not as sure about wealthy people, but I suspect there is a similar dynamic that wealthy parents often develop wealthy children.
  4. PatsWSB47

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    #12 Jersey

    A lot of that is true and does explain the poverty cycle to a degree. I have a different take on the children repeating the "same mistakes" that their parents did however. I think saying the children repeated the same kind of wrong choices is more accurate. The difference may seem subtle but a "mistake" almost excuses a decession by suggesting it was accidental. It takes away accountability. When you(anyone) does that then they are more likely to be repeated. "It's not my fault. I just made a mistake".
  5. DarrylS

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    Sorry if I conveyed it, but not what I meant at all, everyone is responsible for their actions and some do a real good job"breaking the cycle", but it is more difficult to do so in a culture that does not value education, a culture that is drug or violence infested or a culture that tends to be self defeating. Know many kids who have done extremely well for no other reason than they wanted their lives to be different than their parents.
  6. Harry Boy

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    It's the parents:
    It isn't politically correct to come right out and say that in todays liberal feel good society, many of the failing kids parents are Crack Head, Lazy, Sex Crazy Morons who could care less about their kids, they expect "Hillary's Village" to bring up their kids while they "party" and keep pumping out more kids.

    America is purposely being dumbed down by the Far Left Liberal Socialist Progressives (New Democrats) all you have to do is watch the Crap that comes out of Hollywood and the rest of the entertainment industry all aimed at young people (rap crap) they are rearing the kids of America (Hillary's Village) while the Crooked Politicians squabble about power for themselves.

    How do we expect kids who don't even know who they real father is to do Homework, I wonder if the "Crack Head Mothers" help their kids with their "Homework".

    If the fast growing enemy we now have (Islam) takes over they will straighten all this @#$% out (I'm not allowed to use dirty words) Hillary's head will be floating down the Potomac River with the early morning mist, it will be grinning.
    :bricks:
  7. patsfan13

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    I do live in NJ the amount of money wasted is unbelievable. It is about the teachers unions and not the kids. There is a direct correlation between the smount of money spent and the #bureaucrats/child. There is an inverse relationship between the #bureaucrats/child and test scores.
  8. DarrylS

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    I don't disagree with you, that is my point exactly.. in the city there are sometimes too many distractions to do well in school, not that that is an excuse.. it is hidden better in the burbs..
  9. Harry Boy

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    Exactly, I see it right up here in Maine, poor Bill Cosby tried to explain all this and he was Crucified for standing up and speaking plain old fashioned "common Sense", Cosby should run for public office.
  10. Patters

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    I'm not familiar enough with New Jersey, but there are a lot of issues you have to take into account. Is it necessary to pay more to attract good teachers to bad neighborhoods, which are often poor? Do schools in poor areas need to have more security, more nurses, and more psychologists? Do they have to rent some facilities at urban rates? Is transportation, because of insurance and demand, more expensive?

    Of course, the equally important aspect are the parents, and I think we should start teaching kids in schools how to be good parents. Every school should offer a regular class that teaches such things of civics, responsibility, manners, respect, honesty, etc. To be a good American citizen does not come naturally. It has to be taught.
  11. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Security, nurses and psychologists ? Are you kidding me ?

    It's the kids and their families. DUH.
  12. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    BTW - in this example the poor areas spent 50%, $5K, more per kid then you go off on this thing about how those schools must not spend enough in various areas ? Is there no end to your desire to spend.

    Bill Cosby was right, it's the families, why can't you just admit it and stop throwing money at it.
  13. Patters

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    What do you do about the kids and their families. You pointed to a problem, but have not presented a solution. How would cutting school budgets in urban areas, for instance, help improve parenting schools among lousy parents. I don't see the connection. I'm not for or against spending or cutting, but I want the problem and solution identified. My solution is to have a required course that teaches kids basic things about life, including civics, ethics, manners, respect, the importance of education, etc. That would cost money, but in the long run might make kids better people and better parents, especially in cases where the kids have parents who are not very good. What is your solution?
  14. Harry Boy

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    Hillary's Village again.

    Hey poor kids, "take your damn books home with you and tell your junkie parents to help you with your homework, don't go out and no TV until your homework is done"

    Hey poor kid parents "if your kid beats up his teacher, when he comes home you beat him up"

    Hey stupid Judge "if a poor kid beats his teacher up send him to boot camp and let them beat him up"

    Hey poor kid parents "stop selling your food stamps to buy Crack, take your kid fishing instead"

    Hey school board, "throw those looney whacko psychologists out of America's schools"

    Burn Pant Suit Hillary's Village to the ground, don't let the Government destroy your childs mind and brainwash them with their Left Wing Socialist @#$% (feces).

    When whipoorwills call
    And evening is nigh
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  15. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    First, my point in this thread wasn't that we should cut budgets (although I can't imagine where all that money goes) but to point out that it's not the lack of spending that is the problem. My point was for people to STF up about "we need to spend more money".

    Second, what's my solution ? I don't have one. Just like we want to get out of Iraq but that doesn't solve the middle east problem. We need the kids and families to look in the mirror, realize it's their fault and get going on fixing it. It's not Whitey's fault or Rich CEO's fault - it's their fault.

    At the end of the day there's two possibilities. Either they aren't smart enough or they aren't trying hard enough. There's no third option of "they're not given a chance".

    btw - I am NOT saying there's an intelligence issue, just had to mention that to complete the logical possibilities of why they're doing poorly.
  16. Patters

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    Like most people, I'm all for cutting waste and all for spending more to make things better. I think that's how most liberals feel.

    Well, some of them are not looking in the mirror, and our best hope is to teach their kids the value of education, etc. But, to do that, it might require an extra curriculum, which would obviously mean more teachers.

    - Some people aren't smart enough
    - Some people who are smart enough did not grow up in a culture where education is viewed as important.
    - Some people who are smart enough face other problems, such as where to get money for food and rent or how to deal with an absent parents
    - Some people who are smart enough are ill or on drugs
    - Some people don't try hard enough

    But that's a problem we need to solve, and virtually everything in that list can be at least partly solved through education and training. We may not be able to help the parents become great parents, but we can certainly help the kids. If the scores are low, let's look at what can be done to at least help the next generation of poor kids do better. Again, I think it starts in elementary school by teaching kids basic values, manners, ethics, etc. Let's bring back civics class.
  17. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    We're already, in this example, spending 50% more. How much more than that do we have to spend for your grand experiment to work ? And when it doesn't do we have to spend some more ?

    Here's a clue - non poor areas kids succeed at the $10K rate so poor area kids can too - all they have to do is try.

    And, no, I don't want to pour more money into the poor area schools - why should I spend money solely because the kids didn't give a sh!t.
  18. Patters

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    I have a solution: Let's bus all the kids at $15,000/yr schools to schools that get the job done for only $10,000/yr. We could even give those schools $12,000/yr (and save $3,000 per student).

    I'm not at all against finding inefficiencies, but that's a separate issues. Where there is waste, let's cut it, but where is there need, let's invest in it. That's the bottom line for me.
  19. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Dude, we did that in the 70s. It's not the schools, it's the kids and their parents. THAT'S MY POINT.

    Jeez.
  20. Harry Boy

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    Politically Correct Far Left Liberals will never ever accept that fact that it isn't the school.

    BUSING was one of the biggest disasters this country has ever had,. it was cruel, it was demeaning, it was insulting they were telling the whole world that those Minority Students were so stupid that they couldn't learn how to read unless they were sitting beside a White Kid and attending a White kids school, Busing was nothing but a Liberal Social Experiment and the Minority's were made to look like fools, getting up at 5:00 AM, bussed across town, being called names, subjected to violence all to satisfy the damn vicious slobbering liberal.

    The liberal do-gooder got what he really wanted though, VIOLENCE And HEADLINES.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2007

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