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What we're dealing with: fire in the hole

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Fogbuster, Apr 26, 2007.

  1. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Folks, we have a responsibility to end this thing right. To do that requires much more than feel-good measures that withdraw our troops from the battlefield; tens of millions of lives -- the entire Middle East, if not the world -- are depending on us to do it properly. Get it wrong and we are in for some very serious challenges from abroad. More attacks from abroad would be likely, and worse than 9/11 by several magnitudes. The perception of fear or weakness inspires evil to attack.

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    After lots of hard work getting the spin just right, a House-Senate conference committee has cobbled together a $124 billion war-funding bill for President Bush to veto. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi made sure the bill, which is expected to pass the House and Senate today, included all of the pork and other essentials for Democratic Party constituencies. But when it came to the 150,000 U.S. troops now fighting in Iraq, lawmakers included enough poison-pill language to ensure a presidential veto -- which will in turn delay much-needed support for military operations in Iraq.

    The Iraq portions of the bill serve to illustrate why the Framers did not give the legislative branch primary authority to conduct foreign policy. Under the legislation, American troops will begin pulling out by July 1 if the elected Iraqi government fails to meet a series of congressional demands, which include reducing sectarian violence -- meaning, in effect, that if al Qaeda wants to speed up an American troop pullout, it might want to bomb more Shi'ite mosques -- guaranteeing that sectarian violence would worsen.

    Other demands include enactment of a law to share oil revenue. Desirable as this is, it is irrelevant if security does not exist in Iraq, and the U.S. military remains the only thing standing in the way of a total collapse of the government. But the bill goes on to mandate that even if the Iraqis meet all of Washington's demands, the troops will start to leave Iraq Oct. 1, with a goal of bringing most of them home by next April.

    One might ask: What happens if the terrorist insurgents and militias haven't decided to go out of business by that time? In Congress's fantasy world, none of that matters. This legislation wasn't put together with the goal of defeating jihadists on the battlefield. Quite the contrary: With Republican support negligible, it was crafted to ensure the broadest possible coalition of Democrats would vote for a surrender bill. To satisfy the MoveOn.org types, particularly in the House, the bill starts the pullout as early as nine and a half weeks from now. In an effort to provide political cover for House "Blue Dogs" from more conservative districts who want to vote with Mrs. Pelosi, it contains troop-withdrawal language that sets a "goal" for pulling out rather than a deadline.

    more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20070425-092610-9333r.htm


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    Last edited: Apr 26, 2007
  2. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    The troops aren't going to leave. Its a simple matter for Bush to pull out his veto stamp and that's that. The troops won't be without bullets because as soon as Bush vetos this one, a bill that finances the war will pass in a matter of days. This bill is about stopping any Republican BS about this war being bipartisan. Its Bush's war, nobody else wanted it and this bill will make sure that the Republicans can't weasel their way out of facing the political costs. They got hammered in '06 and the slaughter will only continue in '08.
     
  3. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    ... unless Iraq develops into a peaceful, well-reconstructed nation, a model of what democratic reforms can do. Dangerously, it seems for political advantage, Democrats don't want Iraq to get better. Very dangerous competing interests here. Which is why Abraham Lincoln alluded to those who opposed a war time president's policies needed to be restrained.



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  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Fog, the west has been trying for centuries to "enlighten" other parts of the world, and in doing so have empowered despots, slaughtered or caused the slaughter of millions of innocent people, and left countries in ruins. I think you're naive if you believe war is the answer. While you believe what we're doing now is noble and right, that's the same sort of belief that allowed England to colonize and destroy much of Africa, that allowed King Leopold to kill millions of Africans, that allowed the west to in effect appoint corrupt leaders in parts of the Middle East, etc. To bring democracy to Iraq, we have to leave and work hard for a negotiated peace. Without the U.S. in Iraq, many of the insurgent groups would lose their reason for existence.
     
  5. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Undoubtedly. Anything is possible and any Democrat that's against the nations of the Middle East willingly accepting Democracy is a fool. Bush started out with a goal that, had it been achievable, would have been so historically profound they would have had to make room for his head on Mt Rushmore. The problem lies in the fact that the goal was not achievable, and he should have known better.
     
  6. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    Yes Fog, you see if it were not for the evil west, these otherwise peaceful and loving good people would have been living in a virtual paradise. Their culture of human rights for all, religious freedom, equality for their women and gay rights would have been been a beacon and envy of the whole world. Not one drop of blood would have ever been shed.

    Bad west! Bad, Bad, Bad! (but please continue to send aid for natural disaters).

    Seriously though, some groups would be smaller, yes but as nations move toward freedom, extremists will surface to stop it no matter where it starts from. Kissing a woman in public sets the wheels in motion for God's sake and that isn't even from Islamic extremists.
     
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How quickly you forget that the peaceful and loving west has killed upwards of 100,000,000 over the last 150 years. By those standards, bin Laden seems like a peacenik! We're not as morally superior as you seem to think.
     
  8. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    The problem is Patters you blame us for our past and us for their present. Are we to blame for everything for crying out loud? Your excuse of trying to place perspective on everything always starts by digging some dirt on the USA. So not only do you get to bash the evil USA, you give a virtual pass for Bin Laden and his ilk becasue after all, it's our fault they're evil, not theirs. I know you didn't say this and you didn't say that but your tone is always the same. Start with whats wrong with us and excuse whats wrong with them.
     
  9. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Wow.

    You need to learn about the Middle East, specifically Iraq. That line of yours above is stunning in its naivete and ignorance of that area......matched only by the stunningly bad info this administration possesses about that area.

    Having worked that side of the world for one of our intelligence agencies during Reagan and Bush One, I can tell you that dream is as ridiculously imposssible as Tom Brady growing a third ear.

    This Iraq adventure was a tragic boondoggle from the first. (However, Desert Storm was a "good war" and helped our country solidify its economy and standing in the world for the 1990's).
     
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    My only point is that I view our attack on Iraq as a continuation of a failed and destructive policy by the west that started ages ago. The west is responsible for many of the problems in many regions of the world. Historically, the west has done a lot of harm, and I see Bush's war in that context. He might mean well, but even if he does, he is doing far more harm than good. I don't see this war as enhancing American safety or interests in any way, and I think we have to get out and use diplomacy and economic power to try to effect change.

    Of course, bin Laden and the other terrorists are far more awful than Bush, and I oppose their strategy, too. But, I'm not looking out for their interests. My concern with this war is that it is making us a more and more desirable enemy for the disaffected throughout the world.
     
  11. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    So as not to beat this horse completely to death I'll just finish with this. It takes you several replies filled with paragraph after paragraph on our evils usually to finally acknowlege with a line or two that someone may be in some way(s) worse than us.
     
  12. mr3putt

    mr3putt 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Folks, we have a responsibility to end this thing right. To do that requires much more than feel-good measures that withdraw our troops from the battlefield; tens of millions of lives -- the entire Middle East, if not the world -- are depending on us to do it properly. Get it wrong and we are in for some very serious challenges from abroad. More attacks from abroad would be likely, and worse than 9/11 by several magnitudes. The perception of fear or weakness inspires evil to attack.

    In spite of the facts..the deaths...the anarchy in Iraq you still fail to see the futility of Bush's initiative.

    "THE FAULT LIES NOT IN THE STARS...BUT IN OURSELVES"
     
  13. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here is a real simple solution to continue the funding for the war in Iraq, World Net Daily is reporting today that Billions are missing from Iraq.. the war profiteers are getting richer, and there is not enough to spread around for our fighting men and women..this is written by that acclaimed right winger, Jerome Corsi, so it must be true. Just recover the money from the profiteers and then the war can continue.. .

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=55332

    As the debate in Congress over supplemental funding for the war in Iraq heats up, the Department of Defense still cannot adequately account for billions of dollars, according to the Government Accountability Office.

    "For the past 10 consecutive years, we have been unable to certify the Financial Report of the U.S., which is prepared annually by the Treasury Department," Gary Engle, director of Financial Management and Assurance at the GAO, told WND. "Many of the material weaknesses that we found relate to the Department of Defense and their financial management problems."

    Engle explained that the Defense Department problems had not been corrected at the end of 2006 when the GAO was performing its audit work.

    "There are efforts underway over at DOD to address the problems, but the efforts are likely to be long-term projects," he said
    __________________
     
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do you honestly think I have any love or sympathy for Al Qaeda? Of course not. But, you worry more about your own family and country than about other's. Our evils are the ones in dispute. There is no dispute about the evils of bin Laden. If you want to start a thread condemning bin Laden, I would guess it would be rather dull because we would all agree. Just as I take for granted that you may favor some of Bush's policies because you see them as in the interest of the U.S., you should take it for granted that I oppose them because I see them as against our interests. In addition, let's face, to the extent my voice has any influence, it has a lot more influence at home where I can participate in the political process than in the Middle East where I cannot.
     
  15. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Sorry but the Senate voted for this war. Now they don't want it, but they voted for it when it mattered.
     
  16. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    It was the JOOOOOOOS!

    If not, just blame America. :D
     
  17. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    The west is far more advanced, and far more civilized than the rest of the planet. Give the ME or Africa the tools the west has/had, and we probably wouldn't have a planet right now. Have you seen what happens in Liberia, Rwanda, Darfur? How about Halabja or Black September? The only thing that separates the figures are the tools available. The principles of slaughter are both the same.
     
  18. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    It goes like this:

    You: Bin-Laden is a murdering animal.

    America hater: Yeah but we bombed Hiroshima.

    :D
     
  19. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey


    1) Tiny little difference, doncha think, regarding who was the majority in the Senate then and who is now?

    2) That vote was to give the President the go ahead to do whatever he needed in this situation. That was before this administration proved its incompetence.

    When an incompetent worker is fired, you don't say, "Well, the boss hired him a couple of years ago, therefore he/she has no right to turn around and fire him!" Of course not! If someone does a $hitty job, they get the keys to the executive washroom or corporate car taken away from them before they get more power and screw up the company even more - - before they do so badly as to get fired! - - this is the same thing.
     
  20. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, what was that majority BTW? Furthermore, the same clowns are still in office. Just be fair is all I'm asking. They knew what they were all voting for, do I need to did up the quotes from back then? This is the problem with this country, no one is accountable, and the party people let them off the hook.



    Those who voted for authorization, put a finger in the wind, and voted accordingly. Just be accountable. The prosectution of this war has been awful, which I don't put on their shoulders, I put on someone elses, but their vote is still there for everyone to see.
     

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