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What we need next year: PASS RUSHING

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Snarf, Dec 30, 2008.

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  1. Snarf

    Snarf Rookie

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    We need to get some kick ass pass rushers this off season. Enough of this "sit back and let the QB complete 3rd and 15" stuff.

    This is a passing league, where the rules give receivers huge advantages over defenses. You absolutely need to stop passes before they leave the QB.

    So please please please BB/SP, build us one of the best pass rushing defenses in the league!
  2. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    sign terrell suggs, draft connor barwin
  3. BoTown

    BoTown Rookie

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    Terrell Suggs, he can play DE and OLB, and he's a pass-rushing machine. Move Vrabel back inside with Mayo, and have Suggs go at it alongside Thomas on the outside. There's your pass-rush!
  4. cblesz

    cblesz Rookie

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    Agree...top priority should be pass rush. If we are not going to add a high quality corner, a pass rush is essential. We had ZERO pass rush this year. Is Suggs free?
  5. yopats

    yopats Rookie

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    I remember the Pass Rush being decent before AD went down... but def needs some strengthing..
  6. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    AD and Vrabel are both good pass rushers. What we need is a better Secondary so we can be more agressive with our pass rushing.
  7. scott99

    scott99 Rookie

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    Last year the Pats were second in sacks behind the Giants. This year, production was way down. Vrabel had 12.5 sacks in 2007 (I think), this year, 4. AD will help a lot, and if Seymour can stay healthy and reproduce his 8 sacks, we might be among the leaders again.
  8. WhiZa

    WhiZa Rookie

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    Don't forget about Crable who was made to rush the QB with his speed and lengthy frame. Even if he doesn't get to the QB he can still knock the ball down.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2008
  9. borg

    borg Rookie

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  10. cblesz

    cblesz Rookie

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    Our pass rush was awful/non-existent all year.
  11. condon84

    condon84 Rookie

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    Last year we were up big and other teams had to pass to catch up. Vrabel's sack total was bloated because of that. Vrabel has clearly lost a step as I never saw him get around the edge this year like he used to. Vrabel would be great if we moved him inside.

    Signing Suggs would be ideal. Him and AD on the edges would be sick. I didn't see enough of Crable to say he would bring pressure from the outside as he seemed lack the quick first step needed to be a monster on the edges. I watched some South FLorida games and George Selvie seems ideal. I don't know about his coverage skills, but his quick first step and moves to get to the QB are outstanding. I'd be thrilled if we draft him.
  12. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    if you don't have a pass rush, it doesn't matter what kind of secondary you have.........seymour had double the sacks of anyone else on the roster......that tells you the pass rush from OLB was ineffective......vrabel is getting old, for that fact, thomas is no spring chicken either........crable hasn't proven a thing and should be counted on as a backup at best next year........

    OLB needs to get younger with some quality...........
  13. ALP

    ALP Rookie

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    i agree, and that is true w/ or w/o AD...

    i also agree taht we have some nice pieces coming back who can play that role (AD, Crable) but i would still also like to add someone...someone good

    if suggs is not TOO expensive, i say get him....otherwise, draft someone who will be much cheaper

    if we have rosie, crable, woods, AD and either a draftee OLB, or a FA OLB to rush the passer, i think well be in prime condition

    (and yes, as others have said, put Vrabel inside for one more season, and then let him go)
  14. cblesz

    cblesz Rookie

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    Agree...young and quick...I love Vrabel but he is getting old and slow.
  15. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Could you please show me the QB hurries category and how the Patriots did this year?

    Then show me when the Patriots had some "kick ass" pass rushers on their team during this run with BB and Pioli.

    Then show me all these magnificent pass rushers who are going to come in and magically fix the Pats defense because it wasn't just the Pass rush that was ineffective. Their run stopping left a lot to be desired...

    The Patriots don't need pass rushers. They need OLBs who can be effective in all 3 aspects that the Patriots look for. Putting pressure on the QB, Setting the edge against the run and being able to drop back into coverage. At their BEST, the Patriots could rush the Passer from any of the 4 LBing positions. And Vrabel, Bruschi and Cox were effective enough in coverage and McGinest was to a lesser extent.

    Getting a PURE PASS RUSHER like a Freeney isn't going to happen because it won't help this team. Terrell Suggs would help because he can do all 3. He's NOT just a pure pass rusher.
  16. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    I don't think people are suggesting getting an OLB that excels as a pass rusher and can do nothing else. I've gotten frustrated to the point if they aren't going to draft someone first or 2nd round then just get a one trip pony like bruschi was and you can groom him. Vrabel was groomed, but he was a defensive end at first and you could utilize him to just rush the passer as he learns how to set the edge and cover.

    I think people want a player whose strength is pass rushing and can also set the edge and cover, but in reality those players just don't exist out of college and the ones that do go top 10.
  17. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Getting Thomas back will help as will having a stronger secondary so that they're willing to blitz more. I also hope Crable gets on the field next year in some pass rush situations. In normal downs, though, we aren't going to "get" pass rushing. Bruschi's spot is the only one in the front seven which MIGHT change hands.
  18. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Back in the day, our defense got it's paydirt from the pass rush whether it was designed like that or not. Part of the reason why quarterbacks would have such problems against a Belichick defense was because we threw crazy looks at them (especially in 2000-2001) and them rushed them into a throw they weren't ready to make. Our pass rush just simply wasn't like that this year. I don't know if it was the combo of not having Colvin and A.D. or Vrabel not having one of his usual years but it was lacking and it really exposed our secondary early on. I do agree that we should look for a LB who can help in both pass and run support but I think Suggs may be a little out of our range.

    And to answer your question about "bad ass pass rusher", we just drafted one this past year. Crable. Let's hope he can get healthy and be able to stop the run as well as cover.
  19. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot Rookie

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    I'm sorry, were Vrabel and Mcgienst crap for us or something? In their prime they were playing like all-pros. No, they never took "over" games singlehandily, but our OLBs were effective enough for us to be a good defense. I'm not looking for Dwight Freeney, but I'm looking for intimidation again. I remember when Petyon freaking Manning was always human playing us. Why? Because our pass rushers harrassed them every time we played them from 01 to 04. Ever since, our D is nothing for them to chop up.

    We need a guy like suggs. As Bruinz said, we need some versatility and he's every bit the versatile player. The question is, what about Thomas? He has never been an effective rusher for us in 2 seasons. Last year he was great at ILB, our defense was at the best with Vrabes,-Bruschi-Thomas-Colvin. When we had to rely on him to pick up the slack, it hurt us pass rushing. Also due to the fact we were thin at ILB as well in that time.

    IMO, I think ADT has more to offer as a pass rusher than what we've seen. I just don't know if he'll ever be enough to live up to the hype. Maybe he'd be better off being a big ass thumper ILB. Imagine us moving him inside with Guyton and Mayo. But let me say this.

    I'm not looking for a 15 sack guy. I'm looking for the OLB who can hold the edge against quick RBs. Anyone notice how we seem to get beat up outside more than inside? there you go. I'm not looking for the guy to sack the QB every second, but I'd like the occasional big play. I'd like to have an OLB that locks down the outside running lane and gets after the QB when he throws.

    I don't want to hear that we don't need a pass rusher. Look at the stats, the last 3 years our D has gotten worse and worse. So obviously what we have, what we've been doing on defense since, isn't working and needs to change. Maybe not change, but fix it up. We need more speed so we can actually pressure people.

    All these people wanting a expensive ass CB who only plays pass defense taking up 1/3rd of our cap look clueless to me. Give me the LB who can help the DBs with pressure and the help the defense with run stopping. It's funny, because outside of Law we've never had a great CB. We had a lot of good, and average CBs play for us during 01-04. The funny thing is, it never mattered. That's why Mangini was considered a genius, as was/is Belichick. Because, ecspecially back then, they were plugging in anyone, including our very own Troy Brown into a DB with success. Looking back, was it Belichick, or his defense getting after it? Yes folks, we need pass rushers. Plain and simple.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2008
  20. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot Rookie

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    Look at the 03 championship game for proof. That was Manning's worse came probably either. Now look at the hurries and sacks our defense caused that day. Game over.
  21. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Keep in mind that Vrabel, for much of the beginning of the year, was lining up at ROLB and going up against the opposing teams best OT and many times a TE as well. I wouldn't expect him to put up big numbers.

    As for Selvie, you can't go just by one game and you can't forget that the Pats OLBs aren't JUST pass rushers. They need to be able to set the edge against the run AND be able to drop back into coverage...
  22. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sorry, but in ALL of your other posts, you wanted a SACK specialist. Those were your words. You wanted someone who could just get to the QB. This is the FIRST time you said word one about anything else.

    And you are correct, those players don't exist coming out of college unless they are a top 5 pick. And, the Pats are picking in the bottom half of the draft. So even if there was one available this year (which there isn't) the Pats wouldn't be getting him anyways.

    The draft will not provide a fix all for the OLB position. And the Pats may feel that with the young talent they already have, they don't need to add someone else from the draft.

    I wouldn't mind seeing Suggs because he CAN rush the passer, set the edge and drop into coverage. But I'm not holding my breath that the Pats are going to sign him.
  23. redsox33

    redsox33 Rookie

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    We'll never know but I wonder- how much was Vrabel really hurt this season. He started off on PUP, then started the season ridiculously slow but seemed to be more visible the last half of the season. If he was just injured then hopefully this season is just an off year. He isn't getting younger though but that would mean that we'd prob. get another good year out of him while getting Crable some snaps as well.

    Also Thomas is over 30, he isn't getting younger either (someone already pointed that out)

    I will say in terms of run stopping, Vrabel and Thomas set the edge well, Colvin just ok, Woods Guyton, and Redd got burned too many times, and Crable didn't get a chance to show what he could do.

    It also is one of those which came first situations: Was the pass rush off because of the secondary and having to drop guys into coverage or was the secondary exploited because of the pass rush guys? I think it was a little of both- using ILB's for coverage instead of blitz' and usually having to drop one of your OLB's to cover TE's (AD did this a lot when he was in there) and that usually leaves you rushing just 4 guys.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2008
  24. condon84

    condon84 Rookie

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    Vrabel has lost a step. You can't sit here and tell me that he's as effective as he was last year or before. He was in Colvin's old spot and he didn't pressure the QB as much as Colvin did in prior years. Vrabel would be great inside next to Mayo, but we need someone who can go up the field and rush the passer like Colvin did. Even though Colvin never had the monster sack years that everyone envisioned when he first signed, he was a constant pressure off the edge. We missed that greatly this year especially when AD got hurt.

    I saw Selvie play more than a couple of games. This year, he commanded double teams all game long and he still put some pressure. The year before, when he didn't receive the double team he did this year, he completely dominated. Now, whether he can set the edge or play the run as well as he rushes, I don't know. But I remember when Terrell Suggs came out of college and he was a pure pass rusher and with the Ravens good coaching, is now as equally effective stopping the run and setting the edge as he is rushing the QB.

    Reason why I like Selvie is that he reminds me of Colvin. Quick first step and really athletic. He is also lean like Colvin, but showed his strength when he fought off double teams this year and still pressured the QB.
  25. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    Just for argument's sake why not go after a guy whose skill set is skewed towards the pass rush? We've got guys who can defend the run and play effective zone. We've got a guy in Thomas who can rush the passer with a hand down or from the two point. Our 34 personel up front is fine. Look outside the box for solutions and please for the love of god ease up on the hyperbole and dogma.

    What we don't have is a guy who can put his hand down in a sub-package and get after the quarterback. We don't have an Elvis Dumerville. What happens if you add this situational player? Well, it aids your schematic flexability behind the LOS, it puts a guy on the field who can rush the passer without sacrificing coverages, it opens up a whole bunch of things. Our 34 personel are not what is hurting us. The subpackages don't have the hand-down rushers required to apply ample pressure without sacrificing coverage.
  26. satz

    satz Rookie

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    We can generate pass rush if we have a good secondary that can cover and we need not drop LB in the zone to help safeties so the safeties can help CB.

    If we get decent coverage from the CB our safeties can defend the middle better against TE leaving our ILB to do what LB suppose to do cover RB and play stong against the RUN releasing our OLB to pass rush instead of dropping vrabel and ad in coverage all day


    Hobbs,wheatley ,wilhite need to play and i am hoping the rookie improve and we draft or bring in 1 good CB .
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2008
  27. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not even Deion Sanders was able to cover an NFL calibur wide receiver for 10 seconds. Our CBs are fine (I'm happy with the draft considering how Wilhite and Wheatley looked prior to injury [Wheatley that is]). We could replace Rodney this year with a younger, quicker version and that would really boost the secondary to put him next to Meriweather. Remember how much better our secondary looked in the last few games when we were able to generate a good pass rush?
  28. redsox33

    redsox33 Rookie

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    I think the point was-

    How can you expect a good pass rush when 3 out of 4 linebackers are dropped into coverage(2ILB's and 1OLB) and you only have 4 guys working on the actual pass rush (1OLB and the 3DL)
  29. cblesz

    cblesz Rookie

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    Not being a smararse...but I seriously did not notice how Wheatley was doing. Was he doing that well before thei njury? I am serious...if he was progressing well, we should be OK at corner...
  30. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, he didn't blow me away as a Deion Sanders/Champ Bailey prototype but he was more than adequate before he got injured. I hope we'll see a lot more of him, Hobbs, and Wilhite next year.
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