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What the Anti-Israel Media doesn't tell you

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Jan 23, 2009.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't agree with the entirety of this gentleman's commentary; I do appreciate this footage... who speaks for these Palestinians?
    YouTube - Real Face of Hamas, the Murderer Of Palestinians

    Screw follow the money... follow the fuse...
    YouTube - Hamas Booby Trapped School and Zoo 11 Jan. 2009

    Huh, is this what your local house of worship looks like...?
    YouTube - Weapons Horde in Gazan Mosque 13 Jan. 2009

    Take your pick of unusual places from which to deploy weapons of war...
    YouTube - idfnadesk's Channel

    We didn't have this class at my school... I feel... uneducated...
    YouTube - Mortar Bombs Shot from UN School in Gaza 29 Oct. 2007

    I guess if your kid went to this school, you'd be fine and dandy with the situation prior to Cast Lead:
    YouTube - This is Why We Fight (2)

    The graph a screen or two down may help some here understand the point of degrading the capabilities of a group like Hamas:
    Terrorists fire 18 rockets at Israel | Confronting Hamas | Jerusalem Post
  2. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    The American mainstream media can only be considered "anti-Israeli" by completely fascist crazy extremist Zionists.

    Everytime Israel does anything questionable, the entire American article is basically a defense or justification for why it's seemingly okay for them to do it.

    I bet if someone were to create a series of completely one-sided Youtube videos about the "real side" of Zionists, as the above videos claim to be of Palestinians, they would be flagged and removed.

    Hamas was created only 20 years ago, and Israel helped create Hamas the same way Arab blowback applies to the US. But... it's much simpler I guess to just say Muslims/Arabs hate America because "they hate our freedom", and also to call Hamas flat out crazy and came out of thin air for no reason, when it comes to Israel...
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2009
  3. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So I take it that all the evil done by Hamas is Israel's fault in the first place.

    Very insightful, except for the 100% certainty that you're full of crap again.

    If you haven't noticed, the mainstream media have been chock full of propaganda pieces on the suffering Gazan populace -- but have ignored the fact that Hamas specifically places them in harm's way. By the way there are others, including Hamas men machine-gunning a group of some dozens of Palestinian men who are lying face-down on the ground, and quite alive at the beginning of the footage. I wonder, with the death count of about 1,000 from the recent Israeli actions, exactly who directly caused the most Palestinian deaths, between Hamas and Israel.

    But let's find common ground, shall we, Maverick?

    While the Israeli "creation" of Hamas is a debateable proposition at best (did Israel "create" the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is the Palestinian branch -- before Israel itself was created?) we can certainly agree, then, that this evil "creation of Israel" cannot continue in its present form.

    Do you favor the defeat of Hamas, or the achievement of Hamas' goals?

    Or do you favor some sort of accomodation with Hamas?

    Exactly what place do you believe Hamas should have in the Middle East, going forward? What place do you believe Hamas has vis a vis Fatah? We have another "cease-fire", at the moment.

    So let's not let the topic drop until the next time it involves Israel. In the last few days Hamas has been rounding up and shooting at close range (without trial, of course,) those Gazans who are suspected of "spying" for Israel, or of sympathizing with Fatah. This is nothing new, if you were paying attention when Hamas had their coup.

    Now, the Israelis are (again,) gone. Now, Hamas is running around unchecked in Gaza, jumping out of the truck, dragging guys against walls, and shooting them (or in more generous moods, shooting out their knees or hands.)

    Where is the press coverage? Where is your outrage, or is it that selective?

    What, then, do we do about Hamas, Maverick?

    PFnV
  4. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    I don't see evidence that shells were fired or weapons horded in any of the UN facilities in the most recent conflict. Yet they were attacked directly.
  5. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Okay, Strudel, the DET cord snaking from a zoo through a school dated January 2009 is evidently not sufficient. Oh wait, it's now not so important that rockets are fired from schools, but from U.N. schools. Well-played!

    I don't know if you understand the prevalence of UN structures in Gaza. Gazans are dependent on UNRWA for their survival, and that applies to schools as well. I think that ignoring this fact is a great part of the general media spin against Israel -- if you never stipulate the extensiveness of UNRWA throughout Gaza, you don't understand that any such school is likely to be a UN school. The difficulty, of course, is that nobody wants to see a school attacked at all... but the fact is that attacks are being launched FROM these schools.

    The point of posting proof of that fact, is that if the schools are being used as active theaters of war, it's a bit hypocritical to run in, get a rocket or mortar shell, fire it off, and then say "NO FAIR!!! ON BASE!!!" when the IAF counters.

    I'm not certain how possible it is to find a UN flag flying, within a 3-week period, adjacent to a rocket-launching or a weapons cache... But here's a rocket launcher situated between two schools, during the current "cease-fire"...

    YouTube - Hamas Uses Schools and Ceasefire to Shoot Rockets at Israel

    So, we have a launcher between 2 schools, during the current "cease fire."

    We have rockets being launched from a school, albeit in October 07... which for some reason invalidates the notion that the tactic would be in continual use.

    We have a school/zoo booby-trapped when found by ground forces.

    We have weapons caches in mosques.

    We have footage of Hamas attacking and slaughtering other Palestinians.

    Yet you believe that the salient piece of information is that you have not been shown to your satisfaction that a particular school is a UN school -- despite the fact that UNRWA is the major builder of schools (and all edifices) in the Gaza strip, and despite the fact that Hamas has been shown conclusively to use mosques, schools, and other such typically "off-limits" public edifices as part of the machinery of war.

    In 2005, when Israel withdrew, this admittedly somewhat pessimistic opinion piece -- Plans for the Gaza Strip - Opinion - Israel National News -- cited the following numbers:

    Now, when you hear "refugee camp," you may picture a tent city, or some sort of barracks arrangement... the truth is that "refugee camp" is more like a UN version of "projects" in the U.S. These are primarily apartment blocks, general residential areas. They were in large part the focus of Operation Cast Lead, specifically because they were the centers of Hamas activity. Do any of the above-named camps sound famililar? Jabalia perhaps? Rafah? Khan Yunis?

    The entirety of each of these areas -- where the majority of Gazans live -- is an UNRWA undertaking.

    None of this is meant to exonnerate Israel. Of course, if you know me, you know that I believe Israel's in the right in the recent conflict, in terms of casus belli. I also believe that having the right to do something does not make it the wisest course of action.

    Regardless, the point here is to clarify what is missing from the anti-Israeli media bias. If it bleeds it leads, and Hamas makes certain it will bleed -- with the "it" being the general populace of Gaza.

    I look forward to steps forward in the future, given a sober-minded and pragmatic Obama administration, an Israeli government that has always been prepared to talk peace (yes, even the hardliners; Even Begin, the hardliner's hardliner, was glad to give land for peace,) and a Fatah that has come a very long way from its original claim that all of Israel is Palestinian land.

    Of the forces in the two "countries", only Hamas still talks and acts in terms of wiping out the other side. Only Hamas openly declares the martyrdom of its own members and the population it's elected to "protect" to be means of warfare.

    And presented with stark evidence that Hamas does precisely what they say they will do, what does the Western sympathizer do?

    He runs in search of an explanation of how Israel is to blame for Hamas' existence.

    Enough.

    Hamas is there. Does Israel negotiate with Hamas? How? Does Fatah become the representative of Palestinians again? How? We have the fact of the 2005 election to contend with, yet we know that the winner of that election has decided to exterminate the loser... does this square with democracy? What is the answer to the formula of one man, one vote, one time?

    I am not saying these are easy questions. I am saying these are the real questions before us.

    Yet I see precious little interest in answering these questions. I see plenty of essays on the evil of Israel's existence, the evil of Israel's self-defense, and skepticism that an organization which advertises its disregard of combatant status -- Hamas -- would actually disregard combatant status.

    Do you believe that, Strudel? Really?

    If so, you must see Hamas as a possible partner in peace. Is that the case? If so, how will it happen?

    What is the way forward?

    PFnV
  6. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    LMAO very telling. "There is evidence here I do not like. One star!!!"

    Cowards.

    Well boy howdy, I five-starred it! Anybody else wanna play the star-game?

    PFnV
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    America now has the same enemy that Israel has always had.

    The American Far Left Wing HATES America.

    Therefore, The American Far Left Wing now HATES Israel

    If Israel was America's Enemy the Far Left Wing American would Love Israel.

    THAT ENEMY "ISLAM"

    My Message to American Jews.
    "Watch Your Backs"
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2009
  8. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    Israel vastly overpowers Hamas militarily. The casualties were ~700 to 10. If weapons are indeed intermingled with the civilian population then you can suss that out covertly without killing innocents. When Israel/Hamas shell civilians then there is absolutely no ethical justification. The goal here was probably terrorize the population for electing Hamas. Nice.

    Let me be clear, nothing justifies shelling civilians. Nothing.
  9. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I have always said that, I said it on the morning of 9/11 when I sat in my living room and watched 3000 civilians die in two hours.
  10. godef

    godef Rookie

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    Hmmm... agree or disagree with PFIV, he's usually one of the most level-headed commentators on this board... until it comes to this topic, and all of a sudden we start seeing him use words like "cowards" and "crap", and becoming inobjective (unobjective?) in stating his arguments. Totally unlike him.

    IMHO, Isreal has been nothing but one big pain in the arse. The US seeks an allay in the Middle East, and Isreal just takes total advantage of it. They certainly have the right to protect themselves, but they always push it way farther than that. Isreal's behaviour is comparable to the US torture that's been going on in Gitmo. And yes, there is blood on HAMAS' hands for which they must be accountable, nonetheless it's clearly evident to me that their creation was due solely to Isreali aggression.

    And to push this logic further, the real numbnuts in all of this were those post war folks who decided to allow Isreal to exist in the middle of the Middle East to start with.
  11. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    Of course, and you'd be hard pressed to find a reasonable person who disagrees, but what does 9/11 have to do with the price of tea in China?

    Edit: question mark.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2009
  12. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    And yet we constantly hear justifications from both sides for just that. Both sides and their advocated in the press and here continue to point to the actions or gun placement or their own dead civilians and the constant threat to them whether or not they recognize a reciprocal action of their own. Either way, it's always the other guy's fault.

    Pathetic and weak.....no one willing to take full responsibility for their actions. That's why there may never be peace in the area. And all the while the US government continues to fan the flames...Obama is no different than Bush in this matter.
  13. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not worried about Tea In China, I'm worried about Boston being next on the Islamic "Hit List" and I'm worried about this "new messiah" opening the door for them.
  14. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Strudel, Maverick, and Godef:

    I do agree that there is no justification for anybody targeting non-combatants, ever.

    I agree that there is no justification for anybody bombing civilians, ever, so long as that standard is applied universally -- that is, the stance that if any bombing against a combatant affects a non-combatant via collateral damage, the perpetrator must be condemned.

    If that is the case, however, the bar is impossibly high as measured against every military action of any scale in the whole last century.

    So to say that there is no justification for anybody bombing civilians, ever, even when they are not the target, is merely to say you are anti-war.

    That's all well and good. But what do you do when someone starts one with you?

    Again, we have some very simple and very clear facts:

    - The Israelis are more than capable of virtually wiping out a civilian populace, yet they choose to minimize civilian casualties the extent possible. You do not warn the population of where the target will be, if you do not want to avoid civilian casualties.

    - Hamas takes the opposite stance, firing specifically at non-combatant targets

    - Hamas is well-known to use civilian edifices to attack, and to attack from the midst of urban areas, and when hostilities with Israel are down to a low simmer, they machine-gun other Palestinians -- rivals, suspected rivals, people who sing at weddings, etc.

    These facts, objectively (for Godef), are significant to me.

    The subjective belief that anybody "allowed" Israel's formation is another subject for another day. I do think it's useful to think of Israel's founding by reading the history, rather than to ascribe it to a moment in 1948, or even solely a moment in the post-war narrative. This sort of shallow consideration, objectively, misses that immigration to Palestine was not solely a Jewish phenomenon... just for example.

    But I don't think this is the conversation, now. Israel is there.

    Do any of you have any concern about moving forward? Or is the goal for Israel to go away?

    If Israel's existence is part of an outcome, I would love to hear any of your ideas on how to achieve peace going forward.

    I don't want to hear "not by bombing babies!"

    I want to hear "yes, by ________."

    What are your positive proposals going forward? Or is your considered position that the existence of Israel renders moot the possibility of peace... coincidentally the identical position that Hamas takes (though not Fatah?)

    PFnV
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2009
  15. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    Hey PFiV,

    You know I am with you on this, I would just like to point out who isn't.:mad:
  16. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    Well, this is pretty important. Or have we grown so desensitized to the issue that dead babies don't sway us any more? They sway me.

    I wish I knew. I agree with Holbrooke when he says that it is people who start conflicts, and people who can end them. I.e., the parties involved are make deliberate choices to do the bombing. They can stop if they are of a mind to.
  17. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We Fight, Thats What We Humans Do, We Will Continue To Fight Until There Are No More Of Us To Fight

    The Last Two Humans Left On The Earth Will Find Each Other Then They Will Kill Each Other After All, They Are Only Human
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2009
  18. 363839

    363839 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I would have if you didn't.
    Good post.
  19. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They sway me as well. We do not disagree. The trouble is that wars make babies die. This is different from saying "You are TRYING to make babies die!" But again, I am trying to move beyond the recriminations and look forward. That's what's hardest here.

    Certainly, if all parties are of a mind to do so, it is as simple as the stroke of a pen and many lifetimes in support of that stroke of the pen.

    How we get there is the hard part, as everyone acknowledges. The current cease-fire is better than no cease-fire. An absolute end to the rocket attacks would be better.

    Do you think that would be a good thing, Strudle?
  20. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    In my view it's irrelevant whether one intends to kill innocents. Facts are facts and the facts are that innocents are killed. Murdered, really.

    Do I agree to an absolute end to the rocket attacks? In theory, yes. But that would have to include an absolute end to Israeli attacks as well.

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