What other cap savings can the Pats find?

[Elijah T.]

In your counting, I would consider Welker a potential high ticket free agent signing, Andre Carter less so.

I'm not sure about Carter costing much. There wasn't a market for him before BB signed him. I know he was productive last year in the 4-3, and I wouldn't mind him back if the front remains.

But I was actually more impressed with Mark Anderson and would prefer him at this stage in his career. He did ok at OLB when the front changed.

The way Welker is handled should be interesting. I still don't believe he deserves 7-9 million per. He's a slot receiver that's lost some explosiveness the past two seasons. He's 5'9 and 31. He made 2 mill this year, 5 mill would be fair and accurate based on his overall value.

I may be in the minority but I'd prefer Colston, Branch, Rookie WR, Edelman and our tight ends, over paying 8 million per to keep the same receiver line-up we had this year.

I think we could afford Lloyd and Welker, which would be good...But I still don't think Welker should get top money.

 

[Wilfork#75]

I've been looking at the numbers the past few days. We are currently around $101.8 million, and with cuts to Ocho Cinco, Wright, Barrett and all of the bottom of the roster guys that likely won't make the team (Underwood, Polite, Ohrnberger etc.) we can save around $10.5 million more. With a projected cap around $123 million, we should have around $32 million in space to re-sign our own guys, sign Free Agents, Sign Draft Picks, Practice Squad etc. Thats a good spot to be in considering a number of teams are over the cap and will need to shed payroll, so some quality players could come available. I've been trying to figure out if it would be possible to sign Mario Williams, Brandon Lloyd and Adrian Wilson (likely cap casualty), as well as retain Wes Welker. Its pretty close at the moment, but could be doable, especially when you take into account the projected jump in the cap from 2014 due to the new TV revenue.

 

[Ring 6]

Well, do not forget restructures to gain additional cap space.......Steelers are scrambling by restructuring contracts.

I'm not worried about our Cap space. We have plenty.

We do need to cut the losses with Ocho and move on.
Wright should retire unless he wants his brains to look like a fried egg, and
Light we MUST keep for a 1 year deal (despite his antics after SB loss)

What antics?

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not sure about Carter costing much. There wasn't a market for him before BB signed him. I know he was productive last year in the 4-3, and I wouldn't mind him back if the front remains.

But I was actually more impressed with Mark Anderson and would prefer him at this stage in his career. He did ok at OLB when the front changed.

The way Welker is handled should be interesting. I still don't believe he deserves 7-9 million per. He's a slot receiver that's lost some explosiveness the past two seasons. He's 5'9 and 31. He made 2 mill this year, 5 mill would be fair and accurate based on his overall value.

I may be in the minority but I'd prefer Colston, Branch, Rookie WR, Edelman and our tight ends, over paying 8 million per to keep the same receiver line-up we had this year.

I think we could afford Lloyd and Welker, which would be good...But I still don't think Welker should get top money.

I don't know what you were watching if Mark Anderson impressed you more than Andre Carter and if you think Anderson looked good at OLB.

Wes Welker led the league by 22 receptions and was 2nd in receiving yards with the highest ypc of his career, while he was 'losing explosiveness'

 

[ATippett56]

What antics?

The dancing Santa Claus audition in Indianapolis!

 

[BlueThunder]

What antics?

Blowing off steam at the after SB party.....along with Gronk....

Both of those guys have same type personalities from what I read....

Jokester Light and Partyman Gronk...

As long as they perform on the field...go for it ! :rocker:

 

[Wilfork#75]

Blowing off steam at the after SB party.....along with Gronk....

Both of those guys have same type personalities from what I read....

Jokester Light and Partyman Gronk...

As long as they perform on the field...go for it ! :rocker:

I think you need those sort of characters in the lockeroom to break things up. I think Light is a valuable veteran presence for the younger guys because he can show them they can be relaxed and have fun, but on the field its all business.

 

[Elijah T.]

I don't know what you were watching if Mark Anderson impressed you more than Andre Carter and if you think Anderson looked good at OLB.

Wes Welker led the league by 22 receptions and was 2nd in receiving yards with the highest ypc of his career, while he was 'losing explosiveness'

I thought Anderson looked ok in coverage, not neccessarily good. But Carter said himself he wasn't comfortable in a 3-4 with Washington. Anderson is a good pass rusher, he works the edge and has a good outside-in counter move.

He didn't have 12.5 sacks on a free release, he worked for them.

As far as Welker, if you think that Welker still has the same burst out of his cuts that he did early in his career then I don't know what to tell you.

There's no argument that he put up good numbers, but I'm talking about his value moving forward. Do you think Welker is worth #1 WR money?

I don't. And I really like Welker. He's just not a complete receiver.

 

[conway]

I'm not so sure this is doable. Sounds great in theory, and I'm not necessarily opposed to letting BJGE, Ninkovich, Carter, and Anderson go if this is what we could do. What kind of deals are you projecting for each? I suspect signing the rookies will be more expensive than you think, and cutting guys like Underwood gets us nowhere because his replacement won't come any cheaper. I'd be satisfied retaining Welker and Carter and signing Lloyd if that were possible.

I've been looking at the numbers the past few days. We are currently around $101.8 million, and with cuts to Ocho Cinco, Wright, Barrett and all of the bottom of the roster guys that likely won't make the team (Underwood, Polite, Ohrnberger etc.) we can save around $10.5 million more. With a projected cap around $123 million, we should have around $32 million in space to re-sign our own guys, sign Free Agents, Sign Draft Picks, Practice Squad etc. Thats a good spot to be in considering a number of teams are over the cap and will need to shed payroll, so some quality players could come available. I've been trying to figure out if it would be possible to sign Mario Williams, Brandon Lloyd and Adrian Wilson (likely cap casualty), as well as retain Wes Welker. Its pretty close at the moment, but could be doable, especially when you take into account the projected jump in the cap from 2014 due to the new TV revenue.

 

[Ring 6]

The dancing Santa Claus audition in Indianapolis!

Are you really telling me you care about that?

 

[ATippett56]

Are you really telling me you care about that?

Adding humor to a dull thread.

 

[Ring 6]

I thought Anderson looked ok in coverage, not neccessarily good. But Carter said himself he wasn't comfortable in a 3-4 with Washington. Anderson is a good pass rusher, he works the edge and has a good outside-in counter move
He didn't have 12.5 sacks on a free release, he worked for them.
.

I don't know if Anderson was in coverage for more than 5 plays all season.
He was manhandled in the running game. He is what he is (or was until Carter was injured) a situational substitution pass rusher, and a reallly good one.
That is something I have always thought we treat close to the level of starter. But lets not turn a guy who can rush the QB into something he is not becuase he had sacks. This is what I find funny. If he had 4 sacks this year people would be complaining about his run D and how he cant cover, but since he rushed the pass well people insist on pretending he did things he well that he was poor at.

As far as Welker, if you think that Welker still has the same burst out of his cuts that he did early in his career then I don't know what to tell you.

You can just tell me I am correct, because I am.

There's no argument that he put up good numbers, but I'm talking about his value moving forward. Do you think Welker is worth #1 WR money?

He caught 22% more passes than the guy who otherwise would have led the league. He was 2nd in yards. What do you think the most productive player at a position (or 2nd if you wish to pick nits) is worth?

I don't. And I really like Welker. He's just not a complete receiver.

So you want someone who is more "complete" but produces less? Yeah, good luck with that strategy.

 

[Deus Irae]

Just to point out.... the Patriots have $2 million that they can take from next year's cap and use this year, if it comes down to it.

 

[Elijah T.]

@AndyJohnson

You're adding to my post, I never said that Anderson was something he wasn't. I can remember seeing him drop into coverage a few times later in the season and I said he was ok--meaning he wasn't a liability there. Not an asset but neither a weak link.

I understand that he's best suited as a situational rusher, I didn't say he was a run down base end. I said he could rush the passer. How many players had 12.5 sacks this year? I would say Anderson did his job well.

Welker. Ok, when have you seen Welker run a deep post, deep comeback, or the go route outsidethe numbers? When has Welker beat press coverage consistently?

What I see from Welker is a player who excels at crossing routes or quick ins and outs in front or behind the zone. He does it well, but he doesn't make you defend the deep half or the boundary.

Why pay a player top money if he can't make plays 20 yards down the sideline or fight off press coverage consistently?

If you think Welker offers the same value to an offense as Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Vincent Jackson or Colston then we have different opinions.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[ATippett56]

Just to point out.... the Patriots have $2 million that they can take from next year's cap and use this year, if it comes down to it.

A spectacular 2012 NFL draft would alleviate that issue.

 

[Wilfork#75]

I'm not so sure this is doable. Sounds great in theory, and I'm not necessarily opposed to letting BJGE, Ninkovich, Carter, and Anderson go if this is what we could do. What kind of deals are you projecting for each? I suspect signing the rookies will be more expensive than you think, and cutting guys like Underwood gets us nowhere because his replacement won't come any cheaper. I'd be satisfied retaining Welker and Carter and signing Lloyd if that were possible.

For Mario Williams I was trying to base it off the DeMarcus Ware contract (allowing for inflation and taking into account injury history etc.)

Something like 7 years $80million, with $35million guaranteed and $21mil Signing Bonus.

A very simply breakdown would be something like this:
(first 3 years fully guaranteed, 4th year $2.1mil guaranteed)

Base Salary - Prorated Bonus - Roster Bonus - Cap Value
2012 - 3,000,000 - 3,000,000 - 0 - 6,000,000
2013 - 3,900,000 - 3,000,000 - 0 - 6,900,000
2014 - 5,000,000 - 3,000,000 - 3,000,000 - 11,000,000
2015 - 6,500,000 - 3,000,000 - 1,000,000 - 10,500,000
2016 - 8,450,000 - 3,000,000 - 1,000,000 - 12,450,000
2017 - 10,950,000 - 3,000,000 - 1,000,000 - 14,950,000
2018 - 14,250,000 - 3,000,000 - 1,000,000 - 18,250,000
(sorry for the formatting)

Big roster bonus in 2014 for the expected rise in salary cap. And while its a 7 year deal, its highly unlikely he would actually play out that 7th year. If my understanding is correct it would be a 15,250,000 cap saving if he was cut or he could be restructured.

Welker I had at a 4 year $30million contract with $14mil guaranteed and $6mil Signing Bonus. I'm not going to put the full breakdown, but I had him around $5.5million cap value for year 1. He was one of the toughest to predict because there really isn't any comparables for this contract. I think this is probably a hometown discount considering his value, but he is more valuable to the Pats than anywhere else.

Brandon Lloyd I had around a 3 year $15million contract with $5mil guaranteed, $3mil Signing Bonus (first year fully guaranteed). 1st year cap hit of $3.5 million. This was based of the Ocho Cinco contract he signed last year to come here (3yr $11.5). Lloyd may be worth more, but its a very strong FA WR class, and he takes a discout to play for JMD.

Adrian Wilson is the one I can't really get any idea of a contract if he is cut. Would he comand big money at age 32? Would he take a discout to come to a contender? Who knows, I really don't have a clue here.

With the other guys that are FA for the Pats. I think Slater will come back cheap. I think Andre Carter could come back cheap on a non guaranteed contract. Love will be back and I don't see BJGE getting big money anywhere else, so I think he will be back at a reasonable price. The biggest question mark would probably be Anderson and the kind of money he would command. Being a vet, I think he can appreciate the Patriots organisation and I think he might stay. Branch retires or signs elsewhere.

With my picks for the mock draft, I worked out the total salaries for those picks from last year, which totaled about $33 million, all over 4 year contracts. Taking into account escalating contracts, thats probably about a $5-6 cap value for the 1st year.

So adding that all up, thats about $20.5 for Super Mario, Welker, Lloyd and the draft for the 1st year, leaving about $12 for Wilson, BJGE, Carter etc. Probably a pipe dream, but if they can maybe restructure a few contracts its definitely possible.

 

[BlueThunder]

Does Welker put up those numbers without Brady?

 

[Wilfork#75]

Does Welker put up those numbers without Brady?

Most likely not, but it doesn't change his value to the Pats. He is far too valuable to let get away.

 

[eom]

I don't know how you let vince twist in the breeze all year for 40m then throw twice that at some guy walking in the door --- and I don't care what positions they play.

I think signing mario is just too much money for one guy.
peppers signed 6yrs/84m.

if you sign adrian wilson do you plan on chung as a coverage safety?

 

[conway]

That's certainly interesting.

It'd be a huge offseason to accomplish all that. And the Pats would be damn near invincible, barring injury.