What may cost us the SB

[DaBruinz]

A post isn't invalid just because it is poorly worded (or because it uses 5 paragraphs to make a point that once sentence would make).

Before chiming in, you might want to do more background on "STATE". His schtick is " BB SUCKS. He's to blame for everything wrong with the Patriots. All their losses. Everything."

Take a look at the 2006 draft, the Pats whiffed on nearly every pick.

Maroney? Could've had DeAngelo Williams, Addai, Jones-Drew, or even Lendale Wight

Addai - was already 3 years older than Maroney. He's not improved since his rookie year.

Williams - Had injury issues until his break out year, in 2008.

Jones Drew - was splitting time with Fred Taylor.

Lendale White - Hasn't proven to be a #1 RB yet.

Jackson? Could've had Greg Jennings (I won't include Marshall)

Hindsight is always 20/20. Could they have had Jennings? Yep. But EVERYONE and their brother felt that Jackson was the better pick at the time since Jackson had a 1st round grade.

The big problem with using hindsight is that you are acting like you would have had all this information back in 2006. You wouldn't have. Also, you don't know how the players would have turned out in the Pats system. That's why looking back in hindsight, other than to see where your scouting could be improved, is a worthless exercise.

Thomas/Mills? Could've had Owen Daniels.

Owen Daniels? Yeah.. Where was he rated? A 5th round pick. That's right. A fifth rounder. Daniels didn't like to block in college and he had an injury that cost him his Senior Season. What did David Thomas do his senior season? He was one of the top targets on the National Champion Texas Longhorns. He had 40 receptions for 525 yards and 5 TDs. He had a 3rd round grade.

More dissapointing was passing up one some defensive talent. The 3 picks before Jackson: DeMeco Ryans, Rocky Macintosh and D'Quell Jackson. Thomas Howard and Richard Marshall were also taken during that draft.

So yeah, I'd label it a bust.

Demeco Ryans - undersized for the Patriots 3-4 defense.
Rocky McIntosh - Another undersized Linebacker.
D'Qwell Jackson - Yes. He's don't such a great job there in Cleveland.

Hindsight is 20/20. Could the Patriots have used LBs in 2006. Yes. But clearly there were things wrong with the ones you mentioned that the Patriots felt they weren't fits. Hell, you and State and everyone using hindsight to slam BB on that draft have no clue how those guys did in their interviews with Belichick and the coaching staff. And that is one of the biggest pieces of the puzzles that WE as fans, don't know a damn thing about. Too many people forget that these are still JOBS that they are interviewing for. And its hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars on the line. On both sides. So, the interviews do hold a big weight. If you think they don't, then you are intentionally being ignorant and aren't worth talking to on this subject.

 

[DaBruinz]

I figure not many people are going to page 18 of a thread that makes a startling original and thoughtful insight.

Disagree, people, with facts, not posturing and attitudes.

UPDATE: I love that profound movie. Dennis Prager says he could never be friends with a person who doesn't like it. I can see his point.

What facts have you actually presented without presenting them out of context?

 

[BradyManny]

Besides the obvious--injuries--it's the piss-poor draft class a couple of years ago.

As usual, Hey Bro is all over it. The 2006 draft class is an almost abject failure (the kicker saves it, Gostkowski) if L. Maroney falls to the third back, as I suspect will happen much of this season.

The sixth-rounder was a head-scratcher since most NFL personnel people considered he lacked the requisite physical skills to even perform on the NFL stage.

But some groupies here go apoplectic when one calls into question BB. Isn't he human, too?

Ask Cleveland.

Belichick is the best because he's the smartest. Others are as passionate. But brains=success. Take a look at the college ranks: Ohio State, Florida, and Alabama. Really smart guys.

Rich Kotite they are not.

But there are always stumbles along the way, whether it's Vince Lombardi, Bart Starr, Tom Brady or, um, I better gird my loins, Bill Belichick.

The "failure" of the 2006 draft class is overblown. Chad Jackson was a bust - and that's about it.

Last season was no doubt a waste for Maroney, but going into the season, I'd say definitively he was one of the top 5 most underrated players in the league, and the #1 underrated Patriot. I expect a big season from him and would say he's a starting caliber player in the NFL.

Gost has turned into one of the best kickers in the league.

Ryan O'Cal, when healthy, has shown to be a starting caliber tackle, and can play around the same level as Kaczur, which is pretty solid.

So right there, 3 guys who can start in this league. If you leave any draft with 3 starters, the draft is a success. Go and look up the #s on how many draftees - and we're talking 1st and 2nd rounders - are out of the league after a few years and tell me why we should expect the Pats to fire 100% for rounds 1-7.

 

[DaBruinz]

Also, here's a "What if?"

What if Chad Jackson had not gotten injured in his rookie season, and had looked like a quality receiver? Do any of us know that Belichick would still have made the trade for Moss when the team would have had Jackson and Welker already?

I think that, without a doubt, BB would have made the trade for Moss. Though I was skeptical about bringing him here to begin with, but Moss won me over with his great play and his amazingly good attitude.

 

[Calciumee]

I think that, without a doubt, BB would have made the trade for Moss. Though I was skeptical about bringing him here to begin with, but Moss won me over with his great play and his amazingly good attitude.

I agree, I think most people were a bit skeptical with the trade for Moss. But all were happy with it soon after. He was clearly pi$$£d off with being in Oakland. (To be fair, who isn't)

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

6) Ryan O'Callaghan had a 2nd round grade at one point. And in his 1st TC, he kept Kaczur on the bench. However, concussions and injuries since then have jeopordized O'Callaghan's career.

Kaczur was injured and was inactive for the first six games of O'Callaghan's rookie season, as I recall Kac got his job back as soon as he was healthy. There's been plenty who want O'C to beat Kac out, but he's fallen behind Britt on the depth chart, perhaps sitting out all of last season to have his shoulder(s) repaired will get him back on track, but he's got a rough row to hoe with Vollmer and LeVoir and Britt and Bussey all scrapping for a reserve OT slot.

 

[DaBruinz]

Kaczur was injured and was inactive for the first six games of O'Callaghan's rookie season, as I recall Kac got his job back as soon as he was healthy. There's been plenty who want O'C to beat Kac out, but he's fallen behind Britt on the depth chart, perhaps sitting out all of last season to have his shoulder(s) repaired will get him back on track, but he's got a rough row to hoe with Vollmer and LeVoir and Britt and Bussey all scrapping for a reserve OT slot.

Box - Kaczur was inactive because he got beat out by O'Callaghan. And O'Callaghan held off Britt (which I think that either you or I could do honestly).. Believe me, it wasn't a ringing endorsement against O'Callaghan or a slight against Kaczur. I've been saying that LeVoir is the #3 OT since he started filling in for both Kaczur and Light and there was no noticable falloff in production from the offense. LeVoir and Vollmer are the #3 and #4 OTs in my book. Bussey will be fighting for a spot inside at guard along with Ohrnberger, Yates, Connolly and Wendell. I believe that Bussey will be inside because of his height (6'3)

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box - Kaczur was inactive because he got beat out by O'Callaghan. And O'Callaghan held off Britt (which I think that either you or I could do honestly).. Believe me, it wasn't a ringing endorsement against O'Callaghan or a slight against Kaczur. I've been saying that LeVoir is the #3 OT since he started filling in for both Kaczur and Light and there was no noticable falloff in production from the offense. LeVoir and Vollmer are the #3 and #4 OTs in my book. Bussey will be fighting for a spot inside at guard along with Ohrnberger, Yates, Connolly and Wendell. I believe that Bussey will be inside because of his height (6'3)

We have different memories of the 2006 season: Kaczur was injured at the end of the 2005 season (Ashworth started at LT for him in the Denver debacle). He had some offseason work and was still recovering though he wasn't PUPped, I'm pretty sure O'C didn't get his bell rung by Urlacher's rock until much later in the season and he was subbing for Kaczur at the time.

EDIT: Yep, NFL.com game logs for 2006 show O'C's last start was week 8, and he never played again after week 12 when Chicago came to town. Kaczur played week 4, missed another couple games then took over the starters job week 9. That fits with my memory of a rehabbing Kaczur working back into the line-up.

 

[State]

Before chiming in, you might want to do more background on "STATE". His schtick is " BB SUCKS.

Apparently the English language eludes you, DaBruinz.

Go back to cleaning your mustard, fat boy.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Apparently the English language eludes you, DaBruinz.

Go back to cleaning your mustard, fat boy.

DaBruinz missed State's other schtick, which is to call everyone that doesn't agree with him fat. Not sure what that's about, but it seems like the guy's a little insecure.

 

[State]

DaBruinz missed State's other schtick, which is to call everyone that doesn't agree with him fat. Not sure what that's about, but it seems like the guy's a little insecure.

Example? I thought this was a first.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Example? I thought this was a first.

Actually, I think I got you mixed up with one of the other trolls; the one that called apple strudel fat. Whatever, you're all the same person anyways.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I figure not many people are going to page 18 of a thread that makes a startling original and thoughtful insight.

Only the self-deluded would think that pointing out the oft-stated obvious that say 2006 was a wiff draft year is "startling original and thoughtful insight". So Frakin What! Non-draftnik unexpert fans like myself without the really insightfull expertise of Box, DaBruins and Mo saw that too but didn't trumpet the obvious. Yes, even typically excellent managers like Pioli and Belichick sometimes draft underperformers like Chad Jackson et. al. This is hardly insightfull.

Here's a clue for the perennially clueless...it's your complete body of work, achievements and failures, not a selected slice in time that defines your resume as a GM/HC. Three SB rings and close contention for two more. Who else in the last decades can say that? And that's without THIS year's resume, still TBD.

 

[jbb9s]

1st round: RB - replaced
2nd round: WR - replaced
3rd round: TE - replaced
4th round: TE - replaced
4th round: k - All Pro

Even if, for the sake of argument, we were calling every pick in the first 4 rounds except the kicker a complete bust, the notion that the 2006 draft "may cost us the SB" is absurd. Every one of those 'bust' picks has already been replaced by Belichick.

Umm....yeah but BB had to use valuable picks to make those replacements instead of building the team behind Maroney, Mills, DThomas, Cjack. And in week 19, with 5 or 7 players on the IR, thats the lack of dept that allows 4th quarter defensive trainwrecks in the 2 most previous playoff losses.

Like lets says you have a cornerback that has 2 injuries that should have him 2 days away from going under the knife but you are forced to line him up on the goal line singled up wit the a top 10 receiver - how do you think he covers the fade?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Umm....yeah but BB had to use valuable picks to make those replacements instead of building the team behind Maroney, Mills, DThomas, Cjack. And in week 19, with 5 or 7 players on the IR, thats the lack of dept that allows 4th quarter defensive trainwrecks in the 2 most previous playoff losses.

Like lets says you have a cornerback that has 2 injuries that should have him 2 days away from going under the knife but you are forced to line him up on the goal line singled up wit the a top 10 receiver - how do you think he covers the fade?

By taking away the more dangerous slant option.

 

[DaBruinz]

Apparently the English language eludes you, DaBruinz.

Go back to cleaning your mustard, fat boy.

Compared to you, a 1st grader has a better understanding of the English language. You make me look like a freaking god of the English language.

You've not had one well structured argument since you started posting.

BTW, why don't you stick to the subject you started. Or can't you be bothered when actual facts are presented with the correct context?

 

[Deus Irae]

Umm....yeah but BB had to use valuable picks to make those replacements instead of building the team behind Maroney, Mills, DThomas, Cjack. And in week 19, with 5 or 7 players on the IR, thats the lack of dept that allows 4th quarter defensive trainwrecks in the 2 most previous playoff losses.

Like lets says you have a cornerback that has 2 injuries that should have him 2 days away from going under the knife but you are forced to line him up on the goal line singled up wit the a top 10 receiver - how do you think he covers the fade?

What 'valuable' picks were given up?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

What 'valuable' picks were given up?

Any and all, haven't you been paying attention to State and Co., NE "wasted" a sixth round pick on some Finnish super hero or something.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

What 'valuable' picks were given up?

I understand his argument, but "valuable picks" weren't given up to acquire Moss (4th) and Welker (2nd). In fact, Welker has proved to actually be worth more than just a 2nd round pick. Not only is he the best slot receiver in the league, but I think he should be considered as one of the best WR's in the league. However, I think a better argument would've been that the Pats gave up their 2nd and 3rd round picks just to draft Chad Jackson. Had the Pats stayed put, one of those picks could've gone towards defense. It's all good though because the Pats used 2008 and 2009 to draft mostly towards defense.

 

[Deus Irae]

Any and all, haven't you been paying attention to State and Co., NE "wasted" a sixth round pick on some Finnish super hero or something.

I hear you, so let's break this down for the doomsayers:

Welker wasn't a 'replacement' pick since he plays a different role than Jackson would have. Moss might be that 'replacement' if you wanted to go there, but that's a 4th round pick. Baker was a free agent signing at tight end, so there was no pick lost there. Smith is for an undisclosed pick in the upcoming draft, but it's not likely to be anything particularly high. Taylor was a free agent.

So, to 'replace' those 4 players, even calling them all busts, it's probably going to cost the team a 4th and a 5th (give or take). Anyone who thinks that the 'horrible' 2006 draft, which has resulted in, at the worst, missing a 4th round pick in 2007 because it had to be 'wasted' on Randy Moss, and a 5th round pick in 2010, is the reason that the Patriots will lose the Super Bowl in 2009 should not be operating any kind of machinery.


Ever.