Welcome to PatsFans.com

What is the urgency for a new CBA before the beginning of FA in 2009

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by hallfamebrady, Nov 27, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. hallfamebrady

    hallfamebrady On the Game Day Roster

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I recall there was a big rush to get a new CBA in place two years before the CBA was negiotated. I know the threat of an uncapped final year of the CBA was one issue. The another issue was "not likely to be earned incentives" (NLTBE) would count immediately against the cap. In normal circumstances, NLTBEs count on the following year's spending limit. In addition, I recall there were other stipulations on spreading out the costs.

    What are the chances of seeng major cuts from teams around the NFL at the start of FA. I also wonder how this scenerio impacts any potential franchise tag on Cassel.
     
  2. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    33
    Ratings:
    +60 / 0 / -0

    In the final capped year, NLTBE incentives hit the cap immediately when earned. This will probably cause teams to leave extra cap room as a buffer. But if a NLTBE incentive puts a team over the limit mid-season they probably have few options, in many cases cutting a veteran to save salary might save nothing since once a career a veteran player can choose to collect their remaining salary if cut. Could turn into a mess.

    I doubt there will be major cuts of players with bonus allocation beyond 2009. In fact there may be *fewer* cuts. Right now for a post-June 1 cut (or one designated as such) future years unallocated bonus doesn't hit the cap until the next year. In the final uncapped year it hits the cap immediately. As an example cutting Maroney would actually increase his 2009 cap hit, since though his salary would disappear his >$1M of 2010 bonus would accelerate to 2009.
     
  3. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,509
    Likes Received:
    247
    Ratings:
    +774 / 3 / -3

    #75 Jersey

    3.) The 30% rule will take effect. Look at Reggie Wayne's deal in 2006 before the CBA was extended in 2006.
    4.) Fewer years to prorate a signing bonus.
    5.) I have yet to see one report that reports that a lot of teams will be over the 2009 cap that will cause them to cut players.
     
  4. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    21,648
    Likes Received:
    217
    Ratings:
    +658 / 53 / -21

    Miguel,

    I think the questioner is asking whether NLTBE bonuses earned in the 2009-2010 immediately count against the 2009-2010 rather than affecting the uncapped 2010-2011 season. I don't know how that could be the case.

    There will be effects on the 2009-2010 as you indicate, but I don't see why this should cause havoc. It will be make life difficult is assessing whether to sign long-term contracts or wait until the uncapped year when teams can have large 2010 salaries rather than bonuses.

     
  5. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    9,800
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0

    Is there really ANY urgency at all?? Does it matter more in teh next years as opposed to know?? Or is this just the quiet issue that everyone is ignoring that could ruin the league in the long run?? One might think it's not all that important..but then all of a sudden realize it is and then rush to get something done as they did before?? Just curious as to what thoughts are on it.
     
  6. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    21,648
    Likes Received:
    217
    Ratings:
    +658 / 53 / -21

    I believe that NFL without a CBA would become a much poorer product in a very few years.

    Also an uncapped year brings much uncertainly to contracting in 2009, and obviously in 2011. With one uncapped year, I believe new contracts could simply have very high first year salaries and very low bonuses. When presumably the cap came back in 2011, these teams sould have the burden of the anamortized bonuses of contracts signed in 2009. There would also be restructures to move money into 2010. So, yes, it does matter whether a contract is signed before the 2009 season, before the 2010 season or before the 2011 season.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2008
  7. hallfamebrady

    hallfamebrady On the Game Day Roster

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I wonder how this scenerio impacts franchising Matt Cassel. All signs indicate tagging Cassel will be difficult since the cap value is high and it would restrict our movement in FA.

    I am in favor of tagging him if we have the money and we can trade him for draft picks. In addition, I believe we need to sign a top flight CB.
     
  8. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    9,800
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0

    What about a player strike or a lock out or OTHER situation like that?? I agree the CBA is needed for stability but once it is no longer there..might it be hard to get it back in place? Just seems like its a big issue both players owners are ignoring for awhile..putting it off to after the season..Naybe some think it is not such a big deal? Kust trying to understand
     
  9. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,509
    Likes Received:
    247
    Ratings:
    +774 / 3 / -3

    #75 Jersey

    My fellow amateur capologists had a similar discussion in 2006. This is what we came up with.

    Amortization. Amortized bonuses can only be prorated over four
    years. In 2008 they were allowed to be prorated over 5 years. If the
    CBA were extended, they would be prorated over the life of the
    contract or 7 years, whichever is the shorter time period.

    Limited salary increases. The 30% rule will take effect. Future
    increases in a player's salary is limited to 30 percent of a
    player's base salary in 2009 plus his LTBE incentives. Example - A
    player whose 2009 base salary was 1,000,000, the maximum increase
    from year to year for the rest of his contraact could be no more
    than 300,000(30% of 1 million). Paraphrasing eaglescap - "for the
    purposes of the 30% rule salary is defined as base salary, plus
    roster bonus, plus LTBE incentive. Signing bonuses do not count in
    calculation for the 30% rule, but prorations from option bonuses do. Adamjt13 pointed out that this 30% rule will apply to every contract that extends from the final capped season into an uncapped season. (If it didn't apply to renegotiations, teams could just sign players to a contract that complies, then immediately renegotiate one that doesn't.)


    June 1 has no significance - Clubs are usually able to cut players
    from their roster after June 1 to defer some of the dead-money hit
    to the following league year. With no salary cap in 2010, whenever a
    club releases a player all of his unamortized signing bonus will hit
    the 2009 cap

    LTBE/NTLBE incentives - NLTBE incentives won't count against the cap
    until they're earned. LTBE incentives will count against the cap
    until they cannot be earned. Adamjt13 provides this example - "So,
    for example, if a team has $500,000 of cap room late in the season
    and a player is approaching an NLTBE incentive that would earn him
    $1 million, the team has to open up another $500,000 of cap room
    when he earns it. On the other hand, if a player has an LTBE
    incentive, that money becomes available under the cap as soon as it
    can't be earned (for example, if a player is put on IR before
    reaching the necessary statistics to earn the incentive).
     
  10. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,509
    Likes Received:
    247
    Ratings:
    +774 / 3 / -3

    #75 Jersey

    NFL Players Association › Member Services

    Amounts Treated as Signing Bonuses. For purposes of determining Team Salary under the foregoing, the term “signing bonus” shall include:
    ....The difference between the Salary in the second contract year and the first contract year when Salary in the second contract year is less than half the Salary called for in the first year of such Contract;
     
  11. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,509
    Likes Received:
    247
    Ratings:
    +774 / 3 / -3

    #75 Jersey

    Correction Amortized bonuses can only be prorated over five (not four)
    years. In 2008 they were allowed to be prorated over 6 (not 5) years.
     
  12. hallfamebrady

    hallfamebrady On the Game Day Roster

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Miguel,

    What are the chances of a flurry of big cuts due to the cap if they are unable to extend before the start of FA? Has there been any talk about trying to strike a deal before the start of the new league year.

    In addition, do you have any projected numbers on how teams stand in terms of the cap for 2009? I think this is a critcal off season for the Patriots in regards to reloading for the future.
     
  13. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    9,800
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0

    I think without the CBA in place...they will try an ddo this before the FA period...BUT this might be very difficult. Bertelson is not resigning and has the union till late March..Only then will there be any change..Not looking good for that. .With Upshaw's death, the old guard of the union is in place...and really, not looking to move forward. I think both sides are just putting it off till teh late post season. but then the last capped year is in place...at 09. If that is in place and there is an uncapped year...I really doubt the toothpaste goes back into thetube...No CBA and in 11 most likely there will be a lockout and trouble..THAT seems to be what many are saying. predicting..from Bertelsonon down. NOT a pretty picture..
     
  14. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,509
    Likes Received:
    247
    Ratings:
    +774 / 3 / -3

    #75 Jersey

    I would say slight because teams are so under the 2008 cap now that many teams will be pushing cap space into 2009.

    Example, Dan Klecko has a $10 million incentive in his contract that is considered LTBE but in actually will not be attained.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,509
    Likes Received:
    247
    Ratings:
    +774 / 3 / -3

    #75 Jersey

    I have not seen any recent reports for all 32 teams.

    For the Pats
    The National Football Post | Monday Money Matters
    "The Patriots are currently showing 101M of Cap charges for 2009 with an expected Cap of 123M, so they will have the room to use the tag."

    Please note that Mr. Brandt's numbers tell the story as it was written a couple of Mondays ago. Things will change between now and the advent of free agency.
     
  16. slash83

    slash83 In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2006
    Messages:
    3,237
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +43 / 4 / -0

    So we should have just over 20million in cap space, thats enough money to resign some players and make a few key additions. Should be an exciting offseason, hopefully it doesnt start too early though.
     
  17. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,509
    Likes Received:
    247
    Ratings:
    +774 / 3 / -3

    #75 Jersey

    Here are some of the things that will change the amount of cap space that the Pats will have entering free agency.

    1.) The signing of PS players to future contracts.
    2.) The tendering of RFAs.
    3.) The increased salaries of players because of attained salaries
    4.) The LTBE/NTLBE calculation
    5.) The signing of Patriots free agents (examples - Izzo, Paxton)
    6.) The restructures/retirements/extensions of Patriots already signed for the 2009 season (examples - Vrabel, Wilfork, Mankins, Tedy).
     
  18. Gunnails

    Gunnails In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,624
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    No Jersey Selected

    How is it that Miquel does not have six green boxes under his post count?
     
  19. PatsFanSince74

    PatsFanSince74 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    10,303
    Likes Received:
    122
    Ratings:
    +355 / 21 / -13

    Screw the cap. Screw the players and management of small market teams like Indy and San Diego that trashed us during spygate. Never forget that the last CBA was salvaged at the last minute because Bob Kraft stepped up.

    Now, we don't owe them anything. However it sorts out, the Pats would be one of the "haves" in an uncapped era. Bring it on. Let the chips fall where they may for the whiners.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>