What is PATs Oline missing?

[JR4]

I mean I know these guys do well against many teams.
But there are teams, Miami for example, that they seem to struggle.
Maroney can take advantage of even a small hole but in last game
it seems Oline couldn't open anything. Dillion had to plow his way for
some yards and even when Maroney got something it was his getting
something when nothing was there.

So what't the deal with PATs Oline? Are they good but not not great?
What do they need to be able to open holes against teams like Miami?

 

[patsox23]

Consistency. That's all.

 

[Digger44]

They are not missing a thing. Why is it there is something wrong with our Oline if we play a good defense? This post makes no sense.

 

[Oswlek]

Against Denver, NE faced a good, fast D that almost always kept 1-2 more men in the box than NE had blockers. SO not only did NE face a great D, but they faced a great D with a man advantage on almost every running play.

Against Miami, they faced a team that has a very good D in their own right that was playing for its season. Everyone in the stadium knew that a Miami loss ended their playoff chances, and they definitely had an edge about them that I hadn't seen previously.

As I said in another post, both games can be explained individually and I am willing to give the OL the benefit of the doubt. If they do poorly against the next good D, than a clear pattern will present itself and we will just have to accept that the run won't have mch success unless NE straightens out the pass game.

 

[Tunescribe]

I mean I know these guys do well against many teams.
But there are teams, Miami for example, that they seem to struggle.
Maroney can take advantage of even a small hole but in last game
it seems Oline couldn't open anything. Dillion had to plow his way for
some yards and even when Maroney got something it was his getting
something when nothing was there.

So what't the deal with PATs Oline? Are they good but not not great?
What do they need to be able to open holes against teams like Miami?

I don't think they are a physically overpowering line; I do believe they are good but not "great." Your point is well taken that the run game can be shut down by opponents such as Denver and Miami, and to me, that's cause for at least mild concern at this stage of the season. Hopefully, they will further jell as a unit as the season goes on and start pushing opponents around a bit more. I would've hoped that the O line could have helped Maroney out a little more against Denver and Miami, but they were pretty much neutralized.

 

[TeamPats]

I really think the only thing this Pats Oline is missing is cohesion and age. Most Olines are together for like 6 years, this line is still learning how to play with one another because they are young.

So to answer you question the only thing this line is missing is extenions so that they can continue to improve. If you notice around the league, the "great" Olineman are old, like really really old. This is a young group and they will only get better, so let's keep them together. Moral of the story Belioli now would be a PERFECT time to extend Koppen.

 

[ironwasp]

Perhaps Denver can be put down to a bad day all round - perhaps that is wishful thinking - but I don't think for Miami the absence of Daniel Graham can be over-exaggerated. Our other tight ends are not in the same class as blockers as he is and his extra power and nous could have taken the running game into respectable territory against a team that has shown on each outing that it is pretty good against the run.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I don't think they are a physically overpowering line; I do believe they are good but not "great." Your point is well taken that the run game can be shut down by opponents such as Denver and Miami, and to me, that's cause for at least mild concern at this stage of the season. Hopefully, they will further jell as a unit as the season goes on and start pushing opponents around a bit more. I would've hoped that the O line could have helped Maroney out a little more against Denver and Miami, but they were pretty much neutralized.

I'll second this. The fact is that we favor a smaller, less physically dominating type of line, and that can have draw-backs. On a good day, we block well up front, and even on those days we sometimes need Grambo. On a bad day, we just aren't quite as physical as the Defense we face.

But teams are also crowding the box since Brady doesn't threaten them in the passing game currently. If the passing game improves, the defense will have to back away from the box more often, and Maroney will thrive.

We are always going to have a slightly 'vanilla' O-line, it's the Bioli way.

 

[DarrylS]

Another factor is that these teams know each other very well, the Dolphins D is pretty good and they know the tendencies of our schemes and our team.. thus they are harder to defense. I don't think there is much wrong with our O line, they are young, big and strong. The only thing wrong I see is that Koppen needs to be signed to a 3 or 4 year contract.

 

[D-cleater]

I agree with most of the replies here ( rare, these days) except for the premise that because our O-line are not all oversized, that we struggle against more physical lines. We actually seem to do good against the bigger stronger D lines ( like our own), and struggle more against the defenses that use speed and a lot of run blitzes ( buffalo, miami).

Also, keep in mind that the combination of Light - Mankins - Koppen has really only played a handfull of games together. These three will gell, before its time for Koppen to get his payday somewhere else. Then Hochstein will be starting , but the team has already played will with him at center so the transition should be smooth.

Finally, I didn't get to watch the game , but listening I didn't hear Callahan's named mentioned to much. Is there a drop off with him in there from Kazcur / Britt?

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I agree with most of the replies here ( rare, these days) except for the premise that because our O-line are not all oversized, that we struggle against more physical lines. We actually seem to do good against the bigger stronger D lines ( like our own), and struggle more against the defenses that use speed and a lot of run blitzes ( buffalo, miami).

Also, keep in mind that the combination of Light - Mankins - Koppen has really only played a handfull of games together. These three will gell, before its time for Koppen to get his payday somewhere else. Then Hochstein will be starting , but the team has already played will with him at center so the transition should be smooth.

Finally, I didn't get to watch the game , but listening I didn't hear Callahan's named mentioned to much. Is there a drop off with him in there from Kazcur / Britt?

I like Kazcur, then Callahan, not really sold on Britt being ready to start.

Callahan is big and not very quick or athletic, he is struggling a bit more than Kazcur would be, I think. He has potential to be our right tackle of the future, but is very much unpolished at this point.

 

[zippo59]

It's not a coincidence that our running game has struggled in the two games where Dillon saw limited playing time. He was having a productive day aginst Miami but I guess he was injured because he didn't play alot later in the game. Maroney is going to have more success against certain types of defenses, as will Dillon. It has just so happened that the during the two games against defenses Dillon has more success against he has been injured. And we can't really blame our offensive line when our ground game is not running wild on good defenses.

 

[HAMMERMILL]

I mean I know these guys do well against many teams.
But there are teams, Miami for example, that they seem to struggle.
Maroney can take advantage of even a small hole but in last game
it seems Oline couldn't open anything. Dillion had to plow his way for
some yards and even when Maroney got something it was his getting
something when nothing was there.

So what't the deal with PATs Oline? Are they good but not not great?
What do they need to be able to open holes against teams like Miami?

Just my opinion--
They need a really cool nickname
The pats o-line needs time to gel/health/and Dante Scarnecchia(a under appreciated coach)
They'll be fine.
I would like to see them establish an "attitude" of "dominant physicallity".
It would take a more consistant runnning game -imho.
Would love to see a game where they commit to the run,and don't rely on brady to save them.
Put the game in the hands of the rb's and o-line,I think it'll pay back huge dividens later in the year.

 

[Oswlek]

But, when those thing happen, isnt it up to the offensive line coach AND the offensive coordinator to figure something out to combat what the other team is doing, make changes and adjustments immediately. That's why they make big bucks. RIGHT?

Against Denver they did adjust. Did you see how many times they threw deep to try to take advantage of the 1:1 coverage and lack of safety help? They even went as far as to use a flea flicker. If that game wasn't so early in the season, NE would have had at least 3 plays of 40+ yards.

Against Miami it was clear as day that NE would show as little as they needed to because they never feared Miami would score enough points to win.

If you weren't too busy *****ing and moaning you might actually notice these things.

 

[JR4]

Is Charlie Weis back? Sounds like it all over again .... here we go again.
Arm chair OCs in their glory knowing exactly what the PATs should be
doing ... dreaming of what they would do .... making it sound all so simple
...

 

[FirstAndGoal]

"What is PATs Oline missing?"

Grass.

 

[jct]

Having Graham back will help.
But seriously are we missing anything?
Our Offense generates massive yardage.(almost equal Bears)
Our running game is one of the best.(better than Bears)
Brady has been sacked 5 times in 5 games against some good defenses.(Equal to BEARS)
(Some teams give up that many sacks in a half)
Of course there is always room for improvement.
Our drafting/player selection/development seems to overcome Free agency.
If we had a better performing WR core the Oline would look much better.
IMO

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I agree with most of the replies here ( rare, these days) except for the premise that because our O-line are not all oversized, that we struggle against more physical lines. We actually seem to do good against the bigger stronger D lines ( like our own), and struggle more against the defenses that use speed and a lot of run blitzes ( buffalo, miami).

Also, keep in mind that the combination of Light - Mankins - Koppen has really only played a handfull of games together. These three will gell, before its time for Koppen to get his payday somewhere else. Then Hochstein will be starting , but the team has already played will with him at center so the transition should be smooth.

Finally, I didn't get to watch the game , but listening I didn't hear Callahan's named mentioned to much. Is there a drop off with him in there from Kazcur / Britt?

O'Callaghan is still learning, he needs the offseason program to work on his footspeed and explosiveness. My impression was that Cory and Lawrence's better runs came behind the left side - they are the more experienced group working together. Britt did a fine job while O'Callaghan was out, Kaczur is a known talent thanks to last year, but he was injured late in the season (Koppen was injured mid-season), this means he missed Training Camp and the off-season conditioning program, putting him very far behind even if he is on target for his rehab. I expect Kaczur to be a reserve throughout the season, barring re-aggravation of his injury. If Britt needs to play at either OT slot he'll improve steadily and draw lots of complaints from the many experts who haunt the forums - he'll struggle against speed rushers regardless, but the running game won't take that big a hit.

 

[Oswlek]

Wake up, they hardly adjusted at all. TYhey never got off of the attempting to drill the running game straight ahead, for the entire game.

The deep routes were not deep, they were mid range, and they were all sideline fly patterns or out patterns, which Brady sucks at.

The only time they moved the ball through the air was when they threw inside and the only play action they ran all day resulted in a touchdown.

They have been lucky that the defense has played well...as anyone can see...

If this offense does not change its tactics soon, we wont win many other games with this offensive cordinator as we move onto some tough games...

You are blind to the truth, or you just dont understand the game very well.

BTW, if there wasnt a problem with the offensive coordinator, there woouldnt be so many article being written about it, and so many OTHER posters bringing up the topic, in addition to myself.

I see it as it is. Do I like it? Hell no. And if McDaniels doesnt change, the next 11 games will truly suck.

NEM, you have a reputation for arguing a point even after if is beyond the point of reason. Because of this, I will only go into this one more time.

I stated just after the game and I still feel that NE should have scrapped the run earlier in the second half. It was obviously not working from the normal set, and they should have dropped Brady into the gun and passed to set up the run. The very first drive they did this with, they scored a TD, albeit against a prevent D.

However, your claims that they only used intermediate routes and they were all sideline flies and outs couldn't be more false. The flea flicker was not near the sideline and off the top of my head I can think of another play to Cladwell that was deep and in the middle of the field. If it wasn't for a tremendous safty play, that would have been an easy TD.

NE made an adjustment to try to go over the top. Because of the lack of comfort between the WRs and Brady it didn't work. Did you complain about the play calling in the AFCCG vs. Pitt in 2004? It was a very similar mode of attack, except the offense was running on all cylinders.

NE coaches haven't been without fault, including your archnemesis. But your desire to make McDaniels (and Weis previously) out to be a fool blinds you to the truth of the matter and drives you into saying moronic things.

 

[JR4]

......

As you can see, the majority, by a wide margin, of the passes were either short left, or short right for the entirte first half.

I can give you, almost the same format for all of the games thus far, EXCEPT the Cinci game where the bulk of the passes , in the 2nd half, were thrown over the middle, WITH SUCCESS, thus opening the 2nd half of that game for one of the best ground attacks that the Pats have had in some time.

This graph, also shows the inane mis-use of the middle running game into a defense that was stacked against it, and we squandered up 8 points that we should have had with2 TD's instead, we got FG's. BTW, the middle passes in that half accounted for a first down and a touchdown.[/b]

So dear NEM, you conclude because what they did with Cincy in the passing game they should have done with Denver and Miami. Right?

Do you even consider the opposing team's defense
in the process of drawing your conclusions about the passing game?
Do you even consider how the opposing team set it's defense on given plays?
Do you consider what other teams did agaist Miami? Like Houston that
passed more than 50% shorts left and right. Did you see the coaches tape to see why Houston didn't use the middle much?

"the inane mis-use of the middle " ? what are you talking about. They ran left, right, off tackle and yes up the middle. They even gained yards up
the middle once. The run game for the most part left, right, middle, was not very effective against Miami.