What I don't get about the hate for Moss?

[Patspsycho]

Moss is the BEST WR in the NFL, and some of you talk about him like he's a middle-of-the-pack receiver.

While he is a solid WR, it is a stretch to call him the best. Even he himself has said as such. He knows as much as the rest of us do, that he is in the twilight of his career.

 

[Bostonian1962]

I've been one of Moss' biggest backers/defenders, but I have to be open minded about it, and speak the truth based on the last month or so.

I cannot deny that Moss has been sulking like a two year old, as a result of some of the attacks on him. That's not good for the team, and it has required some babying from Brady and BB. Nobody can say that is not true. You'd think at his age, he'd be mature enough to handle that crap like a man.

Here's what you get in Moss for all that money. You get a receiver with the some of the best hands in the game. However, he doesn't battle hard if it's not a perfect pass.

You get a player who no longer separates from the coverage like he did in the old days, but his glue like hands negates that to a large degree.

He's the best in the game in tapping his toes inbounds, and making the catch. However, he normally goes down right away, rather than take a hit.

He plays hurt, and did so this year, we will probably find out at some point. However, he almost never comes up big in big games. It's the most bizarre thing, during his career.

Just my two cents.

 

[Patspsycho]

However, he almost never comes up big in big games. It's the most bizarre thing, during his career.

This is what I meant by "when the going gets tough, the tough get going."

 

[emoney_33]

Again, I am not knocking Moss, but to call him a "consummate teammate" is an insult to the likes of Bruschi, Vrabel, and Harrison.

What kind of warped and twisted logic is that? Bruschi and Harrison are rare combinations of talent and personality. Moss being a consummate teammate does not insult them at all.

 

[emoney_33]

While he is a solid WR, it is a stretch to call him the best. Even he himself has said as such. He knows as much as the rest of us do, that he is in the twilight of his career.

5th in yards, 1st in TD in 2009, while:

A) Playing against the toughest pass-defense schedule in the last 17 years
B) Having 0 other deep threats, and only one other capable receiver (the slot)
C) QB dinged up coming back from an entire year off with ACL injury
D) Inconsistent OL
E) double/triple coverage on 99% of plays


It's delusional to think that is just a "solid" WR. He is the best. At worst he is top 3 STILL.

 

[emoney_33]

.
However, he almost never comes up big in big games. It's the most bizarre thing, during his career.

This is what I meant by "when the going gets tough, the tough get going."

Earlier you thought Moss' 2009 numbers were 2007 numbers, so I don't expect you to check facts. Someone already put up Moss' career playoff numbers, but I'm sure you'll ignore them. And I guess the SUPERBOWL isn't a "big" game because in 2007 he had 62 yards and the go-ahead touchdown before the finishing debacle.

 

[Satchboogie3]

I think WR can be some of the worst analyzed players on the field. People only care to look at what they do when they have the football in their hands, but that's only a tiny part of what they do on the field.

Some people forget that they are just 1 cog in a system. To be successful (especially deep threats) they need an O-line that can give the QB time, they need decent play calling, and good reads and well thrown passes. It also helps to have other receiving threats on the team for the defense to account for.

 

[stavros27]

Hope all of you saw the Cardinals/Packers game. If you did then saw what top shelf hard working professional WR's look like.
Moss' effort or should I say lack of effort is embarrassing and you guys defend him. Bizarre!
The bigger the game the smaller Moss plays.
The sooner the Patriots rid themselves of losers like Randy Moss, Adalius Thomas, Shawn Springs etc the quicker they will return to the top of the league.

Hope all of you saw the Cardinals/Packers game. If you did then saw what top shelf hard working professional QB's look like.
Brady's effort or should I say lack of effort is embarrassing and you guys defend him. Bizarre!
The bigger the game the smaller Brady plays.
The sooner the Patriots rid themselves of losers like Tom Brady, Adalius Thomas, Shawn Springs etc the quicker they will return to the top of the league.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Hope all of you saw the Cardinals/Packers game. If you did then saw what top shelf hard working professional QB's look like.
Brady's effort or should I say lack of effort is embarrassing and you guys defend him. Bizarre!
The bigger the game the smaller Brady plays.
The sooner the Patriots rid themselves of losers like Tom Brady, Adalius Thomas, Shawn Springs etc the quicker they will return to the top of the league.

... and you have Mr. geritol himself brett Favre trying to lead your team to the promised land.

A QB who has thrown a ton of interceptions in his biggest games.

Your a euphoric troll ... Vikings are done ... you just don't know it yet.

 

[Satchboogie3]

... and you have Mr. geritol himself brett Favre trying to lead your team to the promised land.

A QB who has thrown a ton of interceptions in his biggest games.

Your a euphoric troll ... Vikings are done ... you just don't know it yet.

He's just trying to explain that Randy wasn't the problem Sunday, it was the entire team. The O-line, Brady, and other receivers are far more to blame than Randy. How in the world is he supposed to have a huge game when they have 3 people on him deep, keeping him in front of them and Brady has no time to throw? He had no chance to succeed.

 

[IcyPatriot]

He's just trying to explain that Randy wasn't the problem Sunday, it was the entire team. The O-line, Brady, and other receivers are far more to blame than Randy. How in the world is he supposed to have a huge game when they have 3 people on him deep, keeping him in front of them and Brady has no time to throw? He had no chance to succeed.

...ummm ... he's a Vikings troll who came around to have some fun satch.

 

[stavros27]

...ummm ... he's a Vikings troll who came around to have some fun satch.

Not quite, big guy. I have been here since the 2007 season when Moss arrived. I'm a big Moss fan. I am not going to let people make ridiculous, embarrassing posts without making them realize how silly and biased they really are. As for Favre and the Vikings....this has been ain incredible year already. I expect for them to beat the Cowboys, but I am not anointing them the SB champs and never did even when he first came to Minnesota. I knew what Favre brought to the table. I knew he would make them contenders. I could see any of the 4 NFC teams making the SB at this point. I am not an unrealistic homer like most here.

 

[NEfan32]

I read the WEEI article and it was so stupid.

The way I look at. With Moss and Welker the offense is better than it was in 01-04. It is, no questions asked. The difference? THE DEFENSE! Everyone is getting their panties in a twist over Moss and the offense, when if we had the SAME defense we had in 04 that we did in 07, we would have won that SB. This offense is a good offense, the issue with the team is the defense.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

He's just trying to explain that Randy wasn't the problem Sunday, it was the entire team. The O-line, Brady, and other receivers are far more to blame than Randy. How in the world is he supposed to have a huge game when they have 3 people on him deep, keeping him in front of them and Brady has no time to throw? He had no chance to succeed.

Randy is never the problem is what his most ardent supporters contend. Far more likely that Brady clown is, after all look at the history...

Moss is the root of the problem, although that wasn't necessarily of his doing. This team isn't built at the LOS to allow for Moss to be what he always was by design and at this stage in his career can really only be, a deep threat. Would another deep threat opposite him help? Possibly, if they locate and/or develop one who functions at a higher than average level. Easier said than done. Although even that that leaves Brady either taking blind shots downfield or checking down to avoid getting killed. This OL can't pass block long enough or consistently enough particularly when facing pressure up the middle which is far more difficult to compensate by merely tying up TE's and RB's as extra blockers.

This offense has no rhythm because it spends all day trying to involve Moss in the offense and then has to settle on one of two Mr. Reliables. Everyone else plays like what they have become, afterthoughts.

They need to upgrade the OL at either rate. Teams now know what works. The upgrades can be more gradual if the scheme changes and Brady has more short and intermediate weapons that are routinely accessible. I don't think they can rebuild an OL that can block for Brady to Moss consistently, let alone this version of Moss. That it worked out of the gate in 2007 was the true anomoly. Yes, he will still get his yards and his TD's, but it's through sheer force of will, and not necessarily his will. And it drains the will out of the rest of the team to be part of a team effort with the team has become two dimentional, Welker and Moss.

One of the biggest differences I noticed between Brady and the guys playing Sunday evening was those guys each had multiple weapons who could go deep or across the middle and for all appearances didn't seem to be facing defenses who could stop them as a result. Brady had the shell of Randy Moss, some kid who played QB in college subbing for the best slot receiver in the league and two ST'ers. All the other team had was an aging but motivated defense and a running back, but that was all it took.

Some want to blame the playcaller. That won't fly because he is limited by personnel and scheme. You can't change either on the fly. They started the year believing they were one thing, and it turned out they were same team that slouched off the field as the confetti rained down in SB 42, only minus a few veteran weapons on offense and defense that the coordinator's that day couldn't compensate for either. There were indications that would be the case dating back to 2008, but those were discounted because of what happened to the QB position in week 1.

At the end of the day the buck stops with Belichick. Maybe Moss deserves to be held accountable for his performance too, as does the OL and to a lesser extent the QB who is dependent on them to do his best work. None of that criticism is born of hate. It just is what it is. Bill had a great idea and it worked for a time until the league and maybe history caught up a lot faster and easier than he likely ever anticipated. If he had a better equipped OL maybe they don't perfect the blueprint. If Asante or Richard makes a play or two, maybe teams give up even trying...

This offense and defense used to be predicated on rewarding guys who did their job. Lately it is predicated on the seemingly endless effort to get them to cover for the reality that too many of them aren't either sufficiently equipped or driven to. The season we just entered, the off season, is the time to deal with that and hopefully rectify it.

 

[pats1]

Randy is never the problem is what his most ardent supporters contend. Far more likely that Brady clown is, after all look at the history...

Moss is the root of the problem, although that wasn't necessarily of his doing. This team isn't built at the LOS to allow for Moss to be what he always was by design and at this stage in his career can really only be, a deep threat. Would another deep threat opposite him help? Possibly, if they locate and/or develop one who functions at a higher than average level. Easier said than done. Although even that that leaves Brady either taking blind shots downfield or checking down to avoid getting killed. This OL can't pass block long enough or consistently enough particularly when facing pressure up the middle which is far more difficult to compensate by merely tying up TE's and RB's as extra blockers.

This offense has no rhythm because it spends all day trying to involve Moss in the offense and then has to settle on one of two Mr. Reliables. Everyone else plays like what they have become, afterthoughts.

They need to upgrade the OL at either rate. Teams now know what works. The upgrades can be more gradual if the scheme changes and Brady has more short and intermediate weapons that are routinely accessible. I don't think they can rebuild an OL that can block for Brady to Moss consistently, let alone this version of Moss. That it worked out of the gate in 2007 was the true anomoly. Yes, he will still get his yards and his TD's, but it's through sheer force of will, and not necessarily his will. And it drains the will out of the rest of the team to be part of a team effort with the team has become two dimentional, Welker and Moss.

One of the biggest differences I noticed between Brady and the guys playing Sunday evening was those guys each had multiple weapons who could go deep or across the middle and for all appearances didn't seem to be facing defenses who could stop them as a result. Brady had the shell of Randy Moss, some kid who played QB in college subbing for the best slot receiver in the league and two ST'ers. All the other team had was an aging but motivated defense and a running back, but that was all it took.

Some want to blame the playcaller. That won't fly because he is limited by personnel and scheme. You can't change either on the fly. They started the year believing they were one thing, and it turned out they were same team that slouched off the field as the confetti rained down in SB 42, only minus a few veteran weapons on offense and defense that the coordinator's that day couldn't compensate for either. There were indications that would be the case dating back to 2008, but those were discounted because of what happened to the QB position in week 1.

At the end of the day the buck stops with Belichick. Maybe Moss deserves to be held accountable for his performance too, as does the OL and to a lesser extent the QB who is dependent on them to do his best work. None of that criticism is born of hate. It just is what it is. Bill had a great idea and it worked for a time until the league and maybe history caught up a lot faster and easier than he likely ever anticipated. If he had a better equipped OL maybe they don't perfect the blueprint. If Asante or Richard makes a play or two, maybe teams give up even trying...

This offense and defense used to be predicated on rewarding guys who did their job. Lately it is predicated on the seemingly endless effort to get them to cover for the reality that too many of them aren't either sufficiently equipped or driven to. The season we just entered, the off season, is the time to deal with that and hopefully rectify it.

They're not going to build their offense around a guy who's in his final season with the team.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Moss may be HOF material but he may be one of the worst playoff WR busts in NFL history when you consider his high status on this team and in the history of top NFL receivers - when the going gets tough,Moss gets going elsewhere...seriously has he ever been more than a decoy in big games?

Of course Homers with thick glasses will find everything but the kitchen sink for excuses on how a #1 receiver on a team becomes invisible...bottom line is HOF receivers FIND ways to make plays in big games no matter what..Jerry Rice almost always did and he was double teamed often.

Moss is a handful at times to handle and at times he is nowhere to be found...How anyone can say otherwise,the stats in the playoffs dont lie.

With that being said he is still a top ten WR in the league but if you are going to trust him in the playoffs I would not bet my last dollar on it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

They're not going to build their offense around a guy who's in his final season with the team.

I sure hope they don't. But then you have the Zolak/Tanguay contingent out their wailing lockout coming, gotta get it in 2010, all we need is the pass rusher, and what Zolak is terming the modern day Donte Stallworth... Did we win it all with Stallworth when we supposedly had passrushers and I missed it?? I think a 2011 draft pick from the Raiders says they don't take the short view and are committed to contending long term as opposed to pulling out all the stops to just win another one RIGHT NOW!!!

Of course Zo also thinks you just replace the OC and screw the system because players are supposed to be able to change, have to every time they move, and we all know how much it helped when we changed systems with Drew...

The foundation, the system and the QB and the HC, remain in tact. What is missing are some key pieces on the field and frankly in the locker room. It may actually prove to be more difficult to replicate the locker room pieces than the on field stuff. The leadership was born of years of losing or being under appreciated developing the kind of chips that $$$ just can't buy. It was solidified during years of winning when no one ever thought they could sustain anything approaching it.

I just think you get to a certain point and you move on. Hopefully you don't face a rebuild, but you undertake a retool. That's what they tried to do this season and they felt they could still compete because the offense would carry the day. It didn't. Might it for one more season with a few tweeks? I don't want to roll those dice because stuff happens that can derail the best intentioned plans. I say start the retool on offense in conjunction with the defense and hope that by 2010 or even 2012 you're looking to perform like the 2001-2004 teams one more time in Brady's prime. I do think he will play until 38-39 as long as he has a shot at adding to the legacy.

I have to go change the radio channel before my head explodes. Zo is calling for Martz or Marriucci as OC...

 

[emoney_33]

I don't think they can rebuild an OL that can block for Brady to Moss consistently, let alone this version of Moss. That it worked out of the gate in 2007 was the true anomoly. Yes, he will still get his yards and his TD's, but it's through sheer force of will, and not necessarily his will. And it drains the will out of the rest of the team to be part of a team effort with the team has become two dimentional, Welker and Moss.

What on God's green earth are you talking about. It was 2-dimensional (Moss/Welker) for ONE simple reason... everyone else sucked. Aiken CANNOT get open, at all, even with Moss taking double teams. There is no forcing it to Moss just to get it to him. There is a calculated risk/reward for throwing it deep (even in double coverage). They've forced it deep to AIKEN even while he has been covered, and it's not to baby Aiken's fragile ego. It's because they know that you HAVE to do that to succeed. You simply must keep the defense honest and spread the field, otherwise you aren't going to have much success. Moss' ability to go deep and draw 2-3 defenders on every play helps the offense, no matter how much you want to pretend it doesn't.

One of the biggest differences I noticed between Brady and the guys playing Sunday evening was those guys each had multiple weapons who could go deep or across the middle and for all appearances didn't seem to be facing defenses who could stop them as a result. Brady had the shell of Randy Moss, some kid who played QB in college subbing for the best slot receiver in the league and two ST'ers. All the other team had was an aging but motivated defense and a running back, but that was all it took.

You continue to disrespect Moss by calling him a "shell", yet you note that each team had MULTIPLE weapons that could go deep. You replace Moss with any single receiver past or present, and the result is the same. That's the cold hard reality, we had ONE receiver on Sunday and no matter who that receiver is it won't do you any good. Especially when you can't run because it's 24-0 in the 1st quarter.

Some want to blame the playcaller. That won't fly because he is limited by personnel and scheme. You can't change either on the fly. They started the year believing they were one thing, and it turned out they were same team that slouched off the field as the confetti rained down in SB 42, only minus a few veteran weapons on offense and defense that the coordinator's that day couldn't compensate for either. There were indications that would be the case dating back to 2008, but those were discounted because of what happened to the QB position in week 1.

We led the league in TOP, 3rd in yards, 6th in points and scored more points than we did in '01 and '03 (10 less than '04). And we did this while facing the most difficult pass defense schedule of the last ~2 decades, and without anything close to the '04 Dillon. You can pretend that this offense is worse and continue to scapegoat Moss all you want, but you are simply wrong. Now whether he'll be worth what he demands in 2 years is another debate entirely, but your existing debate of Moss being on the team as a detriment is just absurd.

At the end of the day the buck stops with Belichick. Maybe Moss deserves to be held accountable for his performance too, as does the OL and to a lesser extent the QB who is dependent on them to do his best work. None of that criticism is born of hate. It just is what it is. Bill had a great idea and it worked for a time until the league and maybe history caught up a lot faster and easier than he likely ever anticipated. If he had a better equipped OL maybe they don't perfect the blueprint. If Asante or Richard makes a play or two, maybe teams give up even trying...

Blueprint? What blueprint? The blueprint that gives up 427 points? Or is it the blueprint that only works in the 2nd half? Or wait is it the blueprint that works when Moss is the ONLY receiver you have?

This offense and defense used to be predicated on rewarding guys who did their job. Lately it is predicated on the seemingly endless effort to get them to cover for the reality that too many of them aren't either sufficiently equipped or driven to. The season we just entered, the off season, is the time to deal with that and hopefully rectify it.

This offense, defense and special teams is still about doing your job. We just haven't been able to find enough of the middle-pack guys that are capable of doing their jobs. Galloway, Lewis, Aiken, Stanback, Tate. If any of those guys did their job, or were capable of doing their job then it changes the entire dynamic.

This team struggled for many reasons, but you are trying to make it seem like Moss is THE reason why we didn't win a superbowl. That simply is false.

Now there's one other point I want to make with regards to you blaming Moss for the offensive "style". For you to claim that Brady forces it to Moss, and then blame that on Moss is very irresponsible. You must hold Brady accountable and he must have personal responsibility to make decisions for himself. If Brady and/or BB were ever to hurt this team by trying to stroke ONE person's ego, then that is terribly irresponsible of them and directly their fault. Of course they are not doing this but you refuse to believe anything that doesn't support your premeditated conclusion.

 

[emoney_33]

Moss may be HOF material but he may be one of the worst playoff WR busts in NFL history when you consider his high status on this team and in the history of top NFL receivers - when the going gets tough,Moss gets going elsewhere...seriously has he ever been more than a decoy in big games?

Of course Homers with thick glasses will find everything but the kitchen sink for excuses on how a #1 receiver on a team becomes invisible...bottom line is HOF receivers FIND ways to make plays in big games no matter what..Jerry Rice almost always did and he was double teamed often.

Moss is a handful at times to handle and at times he is nowhere to be found...How anyone can say otherwise,the stats in the playoffs dont lie.

With that being said he is still a top ten WR in the league but if you are going to trust him in the playoffs I would not bet my last dollar on it.

Jerry Rice in his prime wouldn't have caught many passes on Sunday. The receiver position cannot succeed with only one talent, along with shaky OL and no run game due to early 24-0 deficit.

 

[emoney_33]

I say start the retool on offense in conjunction with the defense and hope that by 2010 or even 2012 you're looking to perform like the 2001-2004 teams one more time in Brady's prime.

So, in Brady's prime, you want him to go back to having the crappy offenses of 01-04 that relied on huge defensive moments to succeed? The 04 offense had the super season of Corey Dillon. If you are calling for a focus on a punishing running game, I'm all for it. But this statement just wreaks of revisionist history. We didn't win in 01 because of the offense, we didn't win in 03 because of the offense, and we didn't win in 04 because of the offense. A lot more goes into winning a superbowl in the NFL than having some specific style of offense or defense.