What do we do regarding Hoyer?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PatsWickedPissah, Mar 11, 2012.

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  1. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    My bias as where I'm coming from. I regard Hoyer as someone with the talent at the very least to be an excellent NFL backup. I also feel that he's better than that, a player who would be a better starter than several of the teams' QBs currently fielded.

    Last year we carried 3 QBs. Although some wanted Hoyer traded, i was strongly against that in 2011 with Mallett an unknown who had an abbreviated camp prep year. This year's situation is different. The Pats could tender Hoyer at a 2nd round pick level and see what happens or sign him to that contract. Keeping him means 3 QBs again. I'm one of those fools who likes our 53rd player and worries about young potential talent we cut destined for the PS where they can be snatched away.

    Were we to sign Hoyer to a new contract and Mallet has a great camp should we and could we trade Hoyer and his cap hit expecting that summer attrition likely leaves at least one team of 31 eager to fill a void? Even for a 7th?
  2. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Its impossible to answer because you don't know what would come back in trade, or what it would take to lock him up.
    Tender him, and let him shop himself. If someone offers him a long term deal you keep him if the money is low (because you know there is a market to trade him during the deal too) and if its high, you take the 2nd.
    If he gets no interest sign him to a small money 3 year deal.
  3. MP-Logick

    MP-Logick Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    First round tender. Can't lose him until Mallett is a viable backup.
  4. AƟƟynormal

    AƟƟynormal PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    I don't have a sense of how far Mallett has progressed. Some of that may come out in Hoyer's tendering, meaning if he's tendered at a first round level than that seems to say we need to keep him. OTOH, it could just be negotiation stance by BB. Now, if they are happy with Mallett then I'd move Hoyer at a second round level (or less compensation if he leaves the conference). I don't want him in Miami and would look to say Seattle to trade at a reduced rate (he signs the tender, we trade him, then he signs a clean contract with a new team).

    My opinion, absent information on Mallett, is that we tender him at a first round level, have him sign and come to camp. Then, once comfortable with Mallet, we trade him for at least a third. The exception would be if we needed cap space due to events from training camp (such as multiple injuries requiring additional free agents), then we could take less than a third.

    I would sign Pennington to the roster and put him on the PUP should we lose Hoyer. We've done this before with Testeverde and another (former Bears QB). That would mean the 53rd player could be development through October.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  5. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It depends on where Mallett is. If Mallett's ready to be the backup, you tender Hoyer and hope that someone is willing to give you something in trade for him, or willing to sign him even though he's tendered. If Mallett's still a glorified waterboy, tender Hoyer and match any offers he might get.
  6. serifyn

    serifyn Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    2nd round tender, look, Hoyer is the best backup for this team right now, and could very well be the future quarterback of this team going forward. but we have no idea where Mallett is.

    The Patriots have to bring all 3 guys into camp and see where they are, if they cant determine who is better after camp they simply have to carry a 3rd QB again.

    Right now the patriots are in Great position with their quarterbacks, they are still learning behind brady who is still preforming at a high level. i said in a post about a month ago that if the Patriots believe Hoyer could be close to as good as Brady is now they should consider trading Brady and signing Hoyer long-term, i still believe this, but if they dont know, it is better to be safe than sorry.
  7. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    They aren't going to know if Mallett is viable before the middle of August. Don't be surprised to see another UDFA (not late rounder since we have none) in camp as develomental insurance in case he isn't. So you tender him, 2nd round will probably do it but you never know because anyone who did sign him to an offer sheet would be willing to pay way more than we would. You can take a chance after the RFA deadline - provided he hasn't signed his tender, but he will - because he knows you can cut it in half like you did to Mankins. But he does want to start and he's not going to sign an extension here for that reason - teams see players who will as insufficiently motivated, like Jim Sorgi... Probably not going to behave like an ******* about being tendered either because he knows having this team in his corner will only help him potentially get a shot at starting somewhere. As it did for Cassel.

    No matter how many times we go through this people here continue to struggle with who and what any of these guys are since Brady landed. And believe me, if someone offered Bill a 2nd today for Mallett he'd be flipped in a heartbeat because Bill could turn that pick into a first in the future...when he couldn't turn the original late 3rd into anything else of value to him at the time.
  8. BradyBranch39

    BradyBranch39 In the Starting Line-Up

    without knowing off hand the $$ difference between the 1 and 2 tender, I'd go with the 1 because I'd be terrified of some team taking him for a 2.
  9. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    The dynamics change as Brady ages.

    We have also gone into a season with a backup we know less about than we do about Mallett right now.
  10. resdubwhite

    resdubwhite In the Starting Line-Up

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    I can't imagine anyone would pay a second for him.

    THeres no body of work to take that sort of risk and the raiders don't have a 2nd rounder.
  11. letekro

    letekro In the Starting Line-Up

    Why should I believe this? Because you have inside info? If not, then I see no reason to believe you, because it really depends on how they view Hoyer and Mallett, both in relation to each other and in absolute terms, and we don't have that information. If the Pats view Mallett as a potential Brady successor, with more potential than Hoyer, giving him away for a 2nd would be idiotic. If they view him as a player with limited potential and view Hoyer as the future, flipping him makes tons of sense. Although you may pretend to know how they view Mallett, you don't, and thus your opinion on this point is not persuasive.
  12. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Have we? When? They'd been following Hoyer since HS, in Ohio. And had him in a full offseason and camp and pre season before making that decision. He also looked a lot better in pre season than Mallett did, and that was the last time "we" saw him before they cut KOC and Gutz. Mallett made the 53 because after investing a 3rd in him he wouldn't have made it through waivers. They've had a season of practice squad reps to watch, although Hoyer still handled a lot of those, too. Mallett was active once all season, and it was because there were no other healthy bodies to take that 46th spot. He was practice player of the week once too, the first Sanchez week...:eek:

    The dynamics really do change as Brady ages. Which is why they won't trade Hoyer unless someone blows them out of the water - and maybe not even then. There is value in having a solid, well developed albeit lightly experienced backup QB on the roster. Just ask Bill Polian. Or the other Bill for that matter.
  13. patfanken

    patfanken Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    There is a big gap between what we know and what we can only speculate.

    1. We KNOW that the Pats liked Hoyer enough to let him be the ONLY back up in his rookie year.

    2, We KNOW that the Pats like Mallet enough to use a 3rd round pick on him despite knowing that it would be unlikely that he'd see the field in a meaningful manner for at LEAST his first 2 seasons.

    3. We KNOW that Hoyer's lack of playing time (3/4's of a meaningless season ender against the Bills a couple of years ago), and a very deep FA QB market) make it very unlikely that any team would give the Pats anything in trade for his services. There are just too many QBs out there with a lot more film on them, to go after.

    4. I would SPECULATE that giving Hoyer a 2nd round tender wouldn't cost the Pats that much more than they would already be willing to pay for his 4th year in the league. Right now Hoyer is probably more valuable to the Pats than any other team.

    I could even see them not tagging him at all, and would be OK with that. (can you tag someone with a 3rd or 4th round tag?????) So in the end I think Hoyer get resigned by the Pats and will be in camp. That being said, I can also see a situation where BB needs the roster spot and we go back to keeping only 2 QBs on the roster and finding the next Brian Hoyer and having a UDFA QB on the PS as the team's 3rd arm. Maybe someone like the McElroy kid who the Jets are likely to let go.

    We would only do this if the team thinks that Mallet has passed Hoyer as a QB.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  14. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    We have gone into seasons with Cassell, Guetirrez, Occonell, Davey, and Hoyer as #2s with them never having played. BB knows as much about Mallett as he did about them before they played, anectodal stories about 'watching a guy since HS' notwithstanding.

    The point about the dynamics changing was exactly intended to imply we will keep both.
  15. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    My guess: a second round tender for Hoyer. He is then traded for a 2013 2nd round pick or a 2012 3rd.

    As mentioned previously though, that's all predicated on Mallett's progression over the past season. Since practices are closed to the public and media, that's impossible for any of us to know and is simply pure speculation on my part.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  16. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    I cant imagine anyone is going to give that up to get Brian Hoyer. I know most Patsfans are high on his come out of nowhere to look good in preseason persona, but he hasn't really done anything convincing since going undrafted, other than gain his coaches confidence. No one has seen real evidence on the field to judge him one way or the other.

    I can't imagine any team will feel its worth a 2nd or 3rd to have to have him today as their backup (surely no one will hand him a starting job) when waiting a year means they can get him for free.

    I'd like to think he has been well trained, but we really are just guessing.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2012
  17. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    As I said, it's just a guess. That being said many head coaches and general managers that are in a 'must improve now' hot seat mentality, so they may not be too concerned about a 2013 2nd round draft pick. If you compare to players that might project to that area in this upcoming draft (e.g., Kirk Cousins, Brock Osweiler, Nick Foles), is it really that much of a reach that some team may consider a player that has had two years of understudy work in a quality program in the NFL to be a preferable alternative?

    I'm guessing at this point Hoyer would be more prepared than those draftees to step in right away if necessary. With the number of starting quarterbacks who don't make it through a season whether it be due to injury or ineffectiveness, a capable Plan B is the difference between keeping your job and being fired for many NFL head coaches. There are also a lot of teams that would like to bring in a quarterback to push an average to below average incumbent for training camp competition.

    There will be a lot of teams in need of a quarterback that don't end up with Manning, Luck or Griffin. There also a lot of teams that saw what happened when the starter went down, from the Colts on one extreme to the Texans on the other, that could have benefitted from a better alternative at backup.

    If a 2012 3rd or 2013 2nd is indeed too steep for Hoyer, what is the right price? A 2012 4th or 2013 3rd? If so and we assume Mallett has sufficiently progressed, should the Pats pull the trigger on such an offer?
  18. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are currently four levels of tender:

    • First-round tender
    • Second-round tender
    • Original round tender
    • Right of first refusal tender

    The first and third tender in the old CBA is gone. For UDFAs, the only tenders that get you draft picks in return are (1) and (2).
  19. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am under the opinion that even this would be a fantastical thought right now regarding Brian Hoyer.

    Like several who mentioned this before me, there just doesn't seem to be enough to go by, at least not at this current point in time anyway.

    That said, I think that you have some decently sound reasoning when bringing up the fact that some NFL teams would look to someone like Hoyer as opposed to some of the low-level 'project' QB's. That does make sense, but I don't see it being for the compensation that you describe.

    Then again, it's all speculation and guessing for all of us right now anyway, so it's not like any person's opinion is right or wrong at this point. I am thinking that we should be prepared to view this in a cautious or more realistic manner though, considering that most NFL teams will not want to give up too much for a backup QB--after all, there are a ton of them around, many with proven game reps and greater NFL experience.

    I would tend to view the trade compensation at the other end of the spectrum, where it's closer to a 5th or 6th.

    Personally, I think that the Pats want him here for another couple of yrs as a backup. I suppose that we'll find out soon enough how they feel.
  20. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I would give him the 2nd round tender and see where that goes. Then I would try to sign him to a 3 year deal and then trade him if nobody has signed him yet not wanting to part with the 2nd. A good year after being traded and he'll want more money. Someone who takes him with the 3 year deal will be getting excellent value if he plays great for them.
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