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What Democrats Must Ignore or Deny

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by patsfan13, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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  2. DarrylS

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    The author of "Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got it Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First (2003)" and "Do-Gooders: How Liberals Harm Those They Claim to Help — and the Rest of Us (2005)." Ms. Charon has an obvious agenda..

    Other than that it is the same old, tax cuts for the rich are a bad thing even though many benefit..
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    When I lived in Sweden in the 1990s, the American right-wing was gloating that Swedish socialism was on the verge of collapse. As usual, their Malthusian thinking, was wrong, and it's wrong in this case too. Nations have options, the best of which is to raise taxes (though the alternative of cutting services and leaving millions in a state of desperation does have the political advantage of giving rise to xenophobia).

    Of course right wingers now point to Chile. They used to point to Ireland, but that didn't work out so well after all. Chile, which produces 1/3rd of the world's copper has the same type of advantages as do some of the smaller oil states. Right now copper prices are high, and that's good for Chile. In a few years, the conservatives probably won't be talking about Chile any longer.
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course that is why she writes OP ED. That in and of itself has nothing to do with the validity of her opinions.

    You aslo entirely miss the point, economies that tax the rich in Europe have collapsing welfare states because the model doesn't work.
  5. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The point about private accounts is still valid, Chile may not have the severe demographic problems of Europe, however our demographic situation is not good with respect to sustaining the current system without drastic reforms.

    The numbers don't work regardless of the intentions. As the authors point out it is ultimately worse for the people who depend on the programs if the politicians try to avoid the problems, settle for the status quo and allow the system to collapse.
  6. DarrylS

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    What I miss is decent, fairly objective reporting.. if Rachel Maddow wrote a book entitled, "The Right Wingnut Religious Whacko's Are Ruining My Country" and then penned an op ed entitled, "How Republican Obstructionism is Hampering Job Growth".. the response would be similar, probably worse it would drive the right batshyt crazy.

    Remember Maureen Dowd, she wrote some inflammatory stuff in the past.. so now everything she writes now has no credibility.. get the drift???
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think both liberals and tea partiers agree we need drastic reform. To my way of thinking, drastic reform is more progressive income and capital gains taxes, single payer health care, and a steeper death tax on large estates. I also think we need to spend far more on welfare, so it becomes workfare, and need to provide jobs for just about anyone getting government aid. We also need to invest heavily in education in order to assimilate immigrants into our language and value system. The right's resistance to the latter simply pushes the country further and further away from their ideals.

    As far as the demographic situation goes, I'm not against raising the retirement age.
  8. Harry Boy

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    Isn't Maureen Dowd the one who was slopping and gushing all over Obama during the election and she got so worked up that she wrote "she had a dream that she took a shower with Jug Ears" it may not of been Dowd but if it wasn't it was one of those female moonbats that writes for the NY Times.
  9. patsfan13

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    She isn't a reporter this is an OPINION Piece it just happens to be backed up by facts.

    IMO you attack the author because you can't respond to the thrust of the article.
  10. patsfan13

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    The problem is that in raising taxes you lower growth ie more unemployment and less revenue a lose/lose situation.

    Education has been lavishly funded with little to show for it IIRC the SAT's are lower now that they were before the Dept of Ed was started, ie the Dept of ED has produced no results, get rid of it.
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    PF13, I think you'll agree that education was very good when we were kids. My guess is that the main thing that's changed is the teacher or staff member to student ratio and the money to keep up with modern times. In the 1960s, Kennedy, in response to Sputnik, provided the huge economic boost to remake science curriculum in the US. It was remarkably successful. We have cut too far back on programs that are important to the future of the U.S. Further, private schools and home schooling fundamentally change the fabric of our nation by creating less of a consensus and less of a shared experience as Americans.
  12. patsfan13

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    Kennedy did raise revenues with the steep drop in marginal rates I agree. I was always in classes with 35-45 per classroom (parochial schools). The issue now is that the schools are being run for the sake of the teacher unions and the administrative staffs. I saw a graph a few years ago that states that spent the lowest $$$/student also have the highest SAT's. They also have the smallest # of administrators/student.

    The other issue IMO is that schools are being used for political indoctrination rather than teaching critical thinking skill and basics are lacking particularly math and science education.

    I saw the transition from phonics to whole language and the problems that resulted, that we had to correct at home. Giving people who fail more $$$ to fail with is not helping children. Sort of like rasing the salary cap for Dan Snyder :D his team would still stink.

    Vouchers and competition would help.


    Oh yeah also vocational training rather than college for all. There was a program in our county where computer and cad/cae/cam software was donated along with some machine tools. The program provided these kids with good skills.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  13. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    evidence? (other than states that teach "intelligent design" as science, that is)


    Agreed. I suppose some of it may be a valid reaction to high school diplomas meaning less than they did in the past, but far too many kids feel a need to go to college, imo.

    A high school diploma should represent attainment of fundamental skills in reading, math, science, etc. that should suffice for many jobs, every day life and a foundation for starting a career. And those careers often shouldn't require a college degree.

    It's probably a bit of a catch 22 now, but there are actually shortages of many skilled machinist type positions in the manufacturing sector now, despite all the manufacturing jobs that have been lost.
  14. patsfan13

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    I would cite the so called diversity training, the slant of history books my kids were given in school and the pushing of MMGW in class when concepts basic to either biology or chemistry were not adequately covered.

    I based my opinions on the experience of my children in a school district considered one of the better ones in NJ that sent 95%+ of kids to college. I compare it to the quality of educational content I was exposed to when I was in school 50 years ago. I base it on the test scores children aren't achieving.

    What are you basing your opinions on?
  15. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    You can't defend either assertion with facts that matter. SAT's may have dropped, but there's nothing to say that it is due to the existence of the DOE. I don't know that the DOE isn't the cause, but I have my doubts and I would not make such a claim, as fashionable as it is. There have been too many societal changes and technological barriers (video games, cable TV and smahtphones) to education, IMO, to lay the blame on the DOE without sufficient evidence. Kids can't do math because they have computers doing it for them, both parents work now, etc....

    Nor can you defend the assertion that raising taxes inhibits growth. Taxes have not been raised recently, but growth has come to a halt. Our greatest period of growth occurred when the marginal limit income tax was over 70%.

    Maybe economic growth is reaching a limit and no one is willing to admit it because doing so indicates that we shouldn't have been living like gluttonous pigs like the last 30 years. That's bad news for the people importing and selling crap we don't need. Evidence the recent thread about a scram jet that can nuke Asia within an hour. Do we need that? No! Is there anything Americans need that they don't have other than health care? If you have everything you need, and have just gone through a catastrophic credit collapse (October 2008), people will be reluctant to binge on credit any time soon. Combine that with the corporate cash hording going on, you get the stagnation we have now. Going 120 mph without slowing down will do that to a society.

    Instead of targeting the elderly, kids, and the disabled for cost-cutting, maybe we should stop upgrading the Ohio-class sub fleet and testing jets that can go 12,000 mph, not to mention three mission-less wars with no end in sight.
  16. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    While the DOE may have not contributed to the fall in test scores I can say for certain that it did nothing to improve scores (the original premise. Since indeed scores are worse.


    Revenue (ie tax rates) are not the problem, spending is the problem and certainly spending, which was too much under Bush has exploded when the dems took control of congress and since Obama has taken office.
  17. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    Gee whiz, where's Patriotsreign when there's a thread about how some other countries do things? Isn't it his official duty to point out that the rest of the world is irrelevant?

    I hope he ain't sick.
  18. DarrylS

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    The Republicans pushed NCLB when George Bush ran his shadow government and then the very partisan regulations came out under the guise of testing for all..

    I agree that the DOE is irrevelant and should be abolished, educational decisions need to be made by the states.. the two biggest spikes in educational spending followed the two major educational bills on the past 25 years, the primary one was PL 94-142 (Education of All Handicapped Children Act) during the Ford administration and the No Child Left Behind Legislation under George Bush.

    The Dept of Education's ,after No Child Left Behind, budget increased by $14B between 2002 and 2004, from $46B to $60B. Thank George Bush for that.

    But the costs associated with both is miniscule compared to the cost that the states had to incur to comply..
  19. Ilikehappyppl

    Ilikehappyppl Rookie

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    Yep, don't tax the rich, tax the poor, give big tax breaks to big oil and wall street, cut SS and Medicare.

    Everything will be perfect then!!!!!!!!!!!!

    oh......wait......we already did this and it doesn't work.....

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    You need to tax the rich facks, you need to get off the big oil titty and we need to invest in our country again.....Also remember nothing happens over night, it takes time and a personal investment from every signal women man and child to become a better country.

    You can't keep giving more to the ones that have the most and expect the rest of us to survive.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  20. patsfan13

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    We are >15T in debt the Unfunded liabilities are >150T $$$$ where does the money come from?

    The net worth of the US is ~ 70T. You could confiscate all income from every rich person and not balance the budget where does the money come from?
  21. Ilikehappyppl

    Ilikehappyppl Rookie

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    Where does the money come from? Easy....

    Cut Defense in Half (I'd support a 40%-35% if needed, in case of war or unforeseen circumstances)

    Troop withdrawal by 2012 from all wars, with base closures all around Europe and more, we are not playing daddy to the worlds problems anymore.

    Would reform the tax code, no more deductions for charity's and other things, you don't give to receive.......

    Cut all pay for federal employees by 25%

    Cut all pay for congress and prez by 75%( I would like for it too be min wage but that would nv happen)

    Tax break to all company's that have zero outsourcing and a tax to all that do at 10%

    Raise taxes on the rich(i.e over 500k) from 36% to 39%

    Raise taxes on everyone making 250k by 10% (I could lean on this one, I could go 8% or 6%)

    Raise taxes on everyone making over 100k by 3%

    Raise taxes on everyone making 50k by 1%

    Cut all loopholes for big corporations (i.e GE and others) everyone pays TAXES!

    Cut all police and firemen's and ambulance services pay rate by 5%

    Cut all teachers wages by 5%

    Cut all NASA funding, its time for the private sector to take over

    Tax breaks to employers who hire and train workers instead of looking for college grad

    Make all colleges that collect or use federal pale grants or other student programs funded by tax payers pay a tax of 10%

    Make all colleges that use sports as their main focus, either cut all ties with there sports programs and make it a private businesslike the NFL or pay an extra tax on ticket sales and endorsements to help fund tuition for under funded students.No reason these players should use a resource if they are only staying to get drafted or play sports as a profession and on top of that stay only 1-2 years. That should be going to the next doctor or scientist not an athlete. We don't need another T.Brady we need another Albert Einstein! (Love you tommy, your still the man!)

    Cut out the Medicare fraud and the SSI fraud(no more i'm an alcoholic so I have a disability stuff) Also ask everyone on SSI or SSDI to take a 5% cut in pay. Would also incorporate that everyone on SSI or SSDI works to some extent I don't care if its an hour a week or 5, just as long as you work.

    Raise income taxes to 90% on anyone making over 10 million a year

    Reform all public schools and cut almost all of the superintendents and others that just are fat. No more unions in schools, we should have to right to fire any teacher at anytime for conduct detrimental to the school.

    Cut all foreign aid in half and ask for some in return for our countless years of service, no problem asking for help when you need it.

    Give our roads and highways into a private sector, we don't need more on our plate then we can handle.

    Reform all our jails and makes sure we stop locking up people over and over or have someone live in jail for 50 year cause he sold crack. Make the punishment fit the crime.

    Reform FEMA, if you can't get someone to insure your house, well maybe you shouldn't live there......just saying.

    Also allow Amestey for all illegals, if they pay taxes we get more revenue.We can't keep fighting a loosing battle....No matter how high you build those walls, they will still find a way in.

    Would reform Homeland Security and make cuts as needed

    Whatever we have left over will go into small business tax breaks(anyone under 1 million gross).

    Also would incorporate income tax across the board, no one should have a tax that other don't have to pay into, no matter if it was just one penny its better then nothing.

    Would make Welfare in incentive program, the more you do for yourself and your family the more help you get, the less you do we take your kids and cut your beenies. Also would make drug tests for any government program, we should not enable people addiction.

    Just to name a few, I would have to get my hand on a budget report to go more in depth, there are plenty of things to cut and plenty of things to raise as well.

    It will still take years if not decades to fix what we broke but that's the price we are going to have to pay if we want a better world.



    My Slogan! CUT-RAISE-REFORM AND PRAY ITS ENOUGH TO SAVE OUR ASS! lol
    People won't vote for you if you were to say this, but that's the real problem......the voter!!!!!!!
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  22. PatsFanInVa

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    LOL - quite a laundry list.

    Your last point's the real one: It will take years to fix what we broke. Yes, it will. It took 230 years to amass 14+ trillion in debt. Yes, the majority has been recently accumulated, more under George II than the present regime. But it's still going to take a very long time, whatever one's prescription is.

    The ugliest part of the whole recent debtomania fad is the simple-mindedness of the general public when it comes to actual solutions. The rational solution is to change course on debt, with a goal of getting debt to manageable levels over a course of years. It is not to wreck the economy some more to score big ideological points (oh yeah, and to claim that one spasmodic reaction or another is the "only way" forward.)

    As with everybody's "I can fix the debt right now!" list, there's some stuff here I like, and other stuff I hate. Nature of the beast.

    Just getting together 20% of the electorate to elect 17% of congress with one common -- and unworkable -- "debt plan" feature; threatening to primary the rest of the majority party in one house if they don't act stupid too; then having that house close ranks behind you and screwing the U.S. credit rating with a default threat... is dumb.

    Looks like that's the kind of politics we'll play with this particular issue until such time as a Republican is president, at which time greater debt becomes an "unavoidable fact of life."

    "Read my lips" and all that.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  23. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    I don't know about you -but the way I see it, a senate and congress who makes $39,000.00 a year is gonna make a whole lotta people work a second job - or be pretty vunerable to bribes. Have you ever tried to live in DC on 40K a year?

    So you want to raise taxes on the poorer of the two by twice as much? May I ask why?

    Sorry, doesn't pass the kool-aid acid test. You seem to want to raise taxes and cut benefits on everyone but yourself.
  24. Ilikehappyppl

    Ilikehappyppl Rookie

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    WOW! So you think its a bad thing to ask our leaders to live like we do? What about the people living in DC making min wage? How do they make it? is the better question! Pretty much I don't give a flying fack how they do it, we all have to make it, I think they can too. Get a roomate....

    As far as bribes, you watch there finances and if something strange comes up, get FBI on it! Oh and they take bribes now! So what's your point? Greed has no bounds.....


    Because they are not the job creators, they make plenty of money and I'm sorry I don't feel bad for you....People like that need to sacrifice! Like the rest of us....

    You can have all my money, you can tax me I don't care.....See cause money is the problem not the solution.....You can cut my beenies you can cut my pay you can raise my taxes you can just about do anything if it means we are going to have a better world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I don't care about your kool-aid test, I didn't type all that for you or for anyone for that matter, it typed it for myself;) You and others are free to talk about it argue about it but its not up for debate with me, cause I know what's right and I know what's just. Don't need you or anyone else to confirm it, I already know it.

    Also, where did you get that I didn't have any skin in the game? I would give you or anyone my last drink of water if we where strand on an island, I would build a boat so you and others could live as I would stay behind so that others could go. I don't care about money I don't care about things, what I care about it is my people and my family and that's all.


    Bottom line, everyone should have to have skin in the game, old,young,rich,poor, disabled, veteran, pretty much everyone!

    We need to inspire our people not enable them, We need them to be the true leaders, even the best person even the best congress man or Prez can't make you or others want to be better want a better life for your people, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it.

    I want to give you and other Libs and scenario: Imagine a boat! Imagine it has 300 people on it! Imagine the limit is 300 total occupancy! You and others could add more people but it would sink the boat and kill 300+! Now do you overload the boat? so you can be nice? Or do you save those 300 people and let the others build a boat for themselves?

    You know the answer......Sometimes its not easy to do what is right, sometimes its mean but sometimes its for a just cause. You can't save the world, you can save the ones that want it but the ones that don't, you have to wait for, to be ready. You can't feel bad for people that don't want better for themselves one of the worst things Christ said was self loathing and I agree 100%
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  25. Ilikehappyppl

    Ilikehappyppl Rookie

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    I respect your opinion and thank you for the reply!

    There are no easy fixes, but we have to make changes even if it means hurting growth or our economy.

    Even if we didn't have a hugh debt we still have:

    The Wars
    The Poor
    Our energy problem
    Our environment
    Washington Corruption


    Just to name a few, We have to make hard choices and not everyone is going to like it, that's the nature of the beast!

    You can't make everyone happy but you can make things better for everyone if you hold true to who you are and what you believe in. There is no golden key, there is no great plan, there is only sacrifice,pain and hardwork left, anyone tells you different is lying.

    The REAL problem is right vs left and that's what's destroying us, if you consider yourself a right or a left wingger YOUR THE PROBLEM! YOU VOTE BECAUSE OF THE (R) OR (D) AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM. We as a country need to look ourselves in the mirror, if Abe Lincoln was alive today he would never of been elected, he was a failure at everything he did in his life but he was successful at the most important thing, that's being a leader of men.....that's the problem and we are all to blame......We elect people cause they fit the part or cause they tell you want you want to hear rather then what you need to hear.

    Our country will wake up when its ready, I just hope its not too late by then.............................................................................
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  26. PatsFanInVa

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    I don't want to go after every one of the details above, but agree with the wife on the odd choice to make the poor shoulder more than three times (not twice) the increased tax burden. Your ideas are hit-and-miss. Many would not work, and others are wrong, period LOL - but I love the spirit of your reply. It is what all of us need more of: the willingness to sacrifice for a greater good.

    We have to be willing to say - if this is the way out (a tax I can afford, though maybe not comfortably, but can afford) - well, then let's do it.

    I really don't want to argue your particulars. A lot of them will break down to "more of the same" about these "job creators" who use to be called the rich. You're giving the break to the upper middle class and "mini-rich," and then you're reinstating the Eisenhower 90% on the super-rich. But you're also beating the living hell out of the poor. Like I said I don't want to argue it. I think the laundry list would likely wreak havoc with our present economy, but would make a dent in debt. It would be a miserable way to live. But that's the policy wonk stuff.

    Wonk stuff aside, what we all need is to say - "if I can afford it for my country, yes, it is patriotic to accept some personal sacrifice."

    I can do that, I would hope most of us here would do that. This is missing from the folks who say "See, you believe that the government really owns the money and just lets you keep some of it" and similar nonsense. We got stuff and didn't pay for it, and now we wonder why we're in debt. Well, we are in debt, and you can't get out by saying "I never voted for that stuff I got."

    PFnV
  27. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Nothing happens without a Constitutional Ammendment for real, fundamental campaign finance reform. No more PACS. A limit on any individual and corporate contributions. Lobbyists are strictly regulated and limited. Severe penalties for corruption by ANYONE bribing or receiving bribes in Congress.

    Nothing will change or improve until the People go over the heads of Congress and force an Ammendment. Congress will never change the status quo on their own. Too many of them believe that they are right to golf with the agro lobby and take trips with union bosses.
  28. Harry Boy

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    Harry Likes This.
  29. DarrylS

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    That will never change, because the people who would make this decision would not benefit.. in fact lose out.
  30. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Virtually no one who lives in DC makes minimum wage. Those that do, are completely subsidized - they quailify for subsidized housing, medicaid and food stamps.

    In fact, were we to pay our congressmen and Senators $40,000.00 a year they, too, would qualify for subsidized housing.

    Department of Housing and Community Development: 04 Occupancy/Rent guidelines

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