Welcome to PatsFans.com

What Democrats Must Ignore or Deny

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by patsfan13, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,564
    Likes Received:
    62
    Ratings:
    +106 / 7 / -10

  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,824
    Likes Received:
    89
    Ratings:
    +150 / 3 / -19

    The author of "Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got it Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First (2003)" and "Do-Gooders: How Liberals Harm Those They Claim to Help — and the Rest of Us (2005)." Ms. Charon has an obvious agenda..

    Other than that it is the same old, tax cuts for the rich are a bad thing even though many benefit..
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,640
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +141 / 1 / -4

    When I lived in Sweden in the 1990s, the American right-wing was gloating that Swedish socialism was on the verge of collapse. As usual, their Malthusian thinking, was wrong, and it's wrong in this case too. Nations have options, the best of which is to raise taxes (though the alternative of cutting services and leaving millions in a state of desperation does have the political advantage of giving rise to xenophobia).

    Of course right wingers now point to Chile. They used to point to Ireland, but that didn't work out so well after all. Chile, which produces 1/3rd of the world's copper has the same type of advantages as do some of the smaller oil states. Right now copper prices are high, and that's good for Chile. In a few years, the conservatives probably won't be talking about Chile any longer.
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,564
    Likes Received:
    62
    Ratings:
    +106 / 7 / -10



    Of course that is why she writes OP ED. That in and of itself has nothing to do with the validity of her opinions.

    You aslo entirely miss the point, economies that tax the rich in Europe have collapsing welfare states because the model doesn't work.
  5. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,564
    Likes Received:
    62
    Ratings:
    +106 / 7 / -10



    The point about private accounts is still valid, Chile may not have the severe demographic problems of Europe, however our demographic situation is not good with respect to sustaining the current system without drastic reforms.

    The numbers don't work regardless of the intentions. As the authors point out it is ultimately worse for the people who depend on the programs if the politicians try to avoid the problems, settle for the status quo and allow the system to collapse.
  6. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,824
    Likes Received:
    89
    Ratings:
    +150 / 3 / -19

    What I miss is decent, fairly objective reporting.. if Rachel Maddow wrote a book entitled, "The Right Wingnut Religious Whacko's Are Ruining My Country" and then penned an op ed entitled, "How Republican Obstructionism is Hampering Job Growth".. the response would be similar, probably worse it would drive the right batshyt crazy.

    Remember Maureen Dowd, she wrote some inflammatory stuff in the past.. so now everything she writes now has no credibility.. get the drift???
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,640
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +141 / 1 / -4

    I think both liberals and tea partiers agree we need drastic reform. To my way of thinking, drastic reform is more progressive income and capital gains taxes, single payer health care, and a steeper death tax on large estates. I also think we need to spend far more on welfare, so it becomes workfare, and need to provide jobs for just about anyone getting government aid. We also need to invest heavily in education in order to assimilate immigrants into our language and value system. The right's resistance to the latter simply pushes the country further and further away from their ideals.

    As far as the demographic situation goes, I'm not against raising the retirement age.
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    38,805
    Likes Received:
    119
    Ratings:
    +295 / 1 / -7

    Isn't Maureen Dowd the one who was slopping and gushing all over Obama during the election and she got so worked up that she wrote "she had a dream that she took a shower with Jug Ears" it may not of been Dowd but if it wasn't it was one of those female moonbats that writes for the NY Times.
  9. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,564
    Likes Received:
    62
    Ratings:
    +106 / 7 / -10


    She isn't a reporter this is an OPINION Piece it just happens to be backed up by facts.

    IMO you attack the author because you can't respond to the thrust of the article.
  10. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,564
    Likes Received:
    62
    Ratings:
    +106 / 7 / -10



    The problem is that in raising taxes you lower growth ie more unemployment and less revenue a lose/lose situation.

    Education has been lavishly funded with little to show for it IIRC the SAT's are lower now that they were before the Dept of Ed was started, ie the Dept of ED has produced no results, get rid of it.
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,640
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +141 / 1 / -4

    PF13, I think you'll agree that education was very good when we were kids. My guess is that the main thing that's changed is the teacher or staff member to student ratio and the money to keep up with modern times. In the 1960s, Kennedy, in response to Sputnik, provided the huge economic boost to remake science curriculum in the US. It was remarkably successful. We have cut too far back on programs that are important to the future of the U.S. Further, private schools and home schooling fundamentally change the fabric of our nation by creating less of a consensus and less of a shared experience as Americans.
  12. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,564
    Likes Received:
    62
    Ratings:
    +106 / 7 / -10


    Kennedy did raise revenues with the steep drop in marginal rates I agree. I was always in classes with 35-45 per classroom (parochial schools). The issue now is that the schools are being run for the sake of the teacher unions and the administrative staffs. I saw a graph a few years ago that states that spent the lowest $$$/student also have the highest SAT's. They also have the smallest # of administrators/student.

    The other issue IMO is that schools are being used for political indoctrination rather than teaching critical thinking skill and basics are lacking particularly math and science education.

    I saw the transition from phonics to whole language and the problems that resulted, that we had to correct at home. Giving people who fail more $$$ to fail with is not helping children. Sort of like rasing the salary cap for Dan Snyder :D his team would still stink.

    Vouchers and competition would help.


    Oh yeah also vocational training rather than college for all. There was a program in our county where computer and cad/cae/cam software was donated along with some machine tools. The program provided these kids with good skills.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  13. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    12,813
    Likes Received:
    92
    Ratings:
    +143 / 2 / -1

    evidence? (other than states that teach "intelligent design" as science, that is)


    Agreed. I suppose some of it may be a valid reaction to high school diplomas meaning less than they did in the past, but far too many kids feel a need to go to college, imo.

    A high school diploma should represent attainment of fundamental skills in reading, math, science, etc. that should suffice for many jobs, every day life and a foundation for starting a career. And those careers often shouldn't require a college degree.

    It's probably a bit of a catch 22 now, but there are actually shortages of many skilled machinist type positions in the manufacturing sector now, despite all the manufacturing jobs that have been lost.
  14. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,564
    Likes Received:
    62
    Ratings:
    +106 / 7 / -10

    I would cite the so called diversity training, the slant of history books my kids were given in school and the pushing of MMGW in class when concepts basic to either biology or chemistry were not adequately covered.

    I based my opinions on the experience of my children in a school district considered one of the better ones in NJ that sent 95%+ of kids to college. I compare it to the quality of educational content I was exposed to when I was in school 50 years ago. I base it on the test scores children aren't achieving.

    What are you basing your opinions on?
  15. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,672
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    You can't defend either assertion with facts that matter. SAT's may have dropped, but there's nothing to say that it is due to the existence of the DOE. I don't know that the DOE isn't the cause, but I have my doubts and I would not make such a claim, as fashionable as it is. There have been too many societal changes and technological barriers (video games, cable TV and smahtphones) to education, IMO, to lay the blame on the DOE without sufficient evidence. Kids can't do math because they have computers doing it for them, both parents work now, etc....

    Nor can you defend the assertion that raising taxes inhibits growth. Taxes have not been raised recently, but growth has come to a halt. Our greatest period of growth occurred when the marginal limit income tax was over 70%.

    Maybe economic growth is reaching a limit and no one is willing to admit it because doing so indicates that we shouldn't have been living like gluttonous pigs like the last 30 years. That's bad news for the people importing and selling crap we don't need. Evidence the recent thread about a scram jet that can nuke Asia within an hour. Do we need that? No! Is there anything Americans need that they don't have other than health care? If you have everything you need, and have just gone through a catastrophic credit collapse (October 2008), people will be reluctant to binge on credit any time soon. Combine that with the corporate cash hording going on, you get the stagnation we have now. Going 120 mph without slowing down will do that to a society.

    Instead of targeting the elderly, kids, and the disabled for cost-cutting, maybe we should stop upgrading the Ohio-class sub fleet and testing jets that can go 12,000 mph, not to mention three mission-less wars with no end in sight.
  16. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,564
    Likes Received:
    62
    Ratings:
    +106 / 7 / -10

    While the DOE may have not contributed to the fall in test scores I can say for certain that it did nothing to improve scores (the original premise. Since indeed scores are worse.


    Revenue (ie tax rates) are not the problem, spending is the problem and certainly spending, which was too much under Bush has exploded when the dems took control of congress and since Obama has taken office.
  17. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    5,742
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Gee whiz, where's Patriotsreign when there's a thread about how some other countries do things? Isn't it his official duty to point out that the rest of the world is irrelevant?

    I hope he ain't sick.
  18. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,824
    Likes Received:
    89
    Ratings:
    +150 / 3 / -19

    The Republicans pushed NCLB when George Bush ran his shadow government and then the very partisan regulations came out under the guise of testing for all..

    I agree that the DOE is irrevelant and should be abolished, educational decisions need to be made by the states.. the two biggest spikes in educational spending followed the two major educational bills on the past 25 years, the primary one was PL 94-142 (Education of All Handicapped Children Act) during the Ford administration and the No Child Left Behind Legislation under George Bush.

    The Dept of Education's ,after No Child Left Behind, budget increased by $14B between 2002 and 2004, from $46B to $60B. Thank George Bush for that.

    But the costs associated with both is miniscule compared to the cost that the states had to incur to comply..
  19. Ilikehappyppl

    Ilikehappyppl Rookie

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Yep, don't tax the rich, tax the poor, give big tax breaks to big oil and wall street, cut SS and Medicare.

    Everything will be perfect then!!!!!!!!!!!!

    oh......wait......we already did this and it doesn't work.....

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    You need to tax the rich facks, you need to get off the big oil titty and we need to invest in our country again.....Also remember nothing happens over night, it takes time and a personal investment from every signal women man and child to become a better country.

    You can't keep giving more to the ones that have the most and expect the rest of us to survive.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  20. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,564
    Likes Received:
    62
    Ratings:
    +106 / 7 / -10




    We are >15T in debt the Unfunded liabilities are >150T $$$$ where does the money come from?

    The net worth of the US is ~ 70T. You could confiscate all income from every rich person and not balance the budget where does the money come from?

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>