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What AMERICANS want (2009, not 1977)

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Jan 2, 2010.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Bloomberg Poll: Americans Want Government Jobs and Progressive Taxation | The Brecht Forum

    They must all be "jealous." :rolleyes:
    ------------------------------------
    http://www.ipspr.sc.edu/ejournal/ej0506/scott huffmon et al final case study.pdf

    -------------------------------------------
    I know, I know, the only poll you can trust is Rasmussen, right...?

    Welp, this one is rather far afield in terms of attitudes toward taxation, because the fact that we must pay taxes to run the society does not equate to socialism in reality. In the minds of the rightist fringe (cum center), however, such an equivalency has been etched in stone.

    Rasmussen Poll Indicates American Shift Toward Socialism | CommonDreams.org

    47% of Americans not sure that Capitalism is a better system than Socialism? It appears I'm barely in the center; if this trend continues, I'm destined to be tomorrow's right-wing dinosaur, being a fan of a capitalist economy with sensible regulation and taxation...
    ---------------------------------------------
    Tax Me, Tax Me! : NPR

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    The Gallup poll cited above:
    Views of Income Taxes Among Most Positive Since 1956
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    It's interesting to see what use to be a slam-dunk complaint -- "Wahhhhh my taxes are too highhhhhh" -- has become a much dicier rhetorical ploy.

    One has to wonder what the outcome of this shift will be as dependence on this proxy issue comes to the fore. I say "proxy issue" because it is clear that those who advocate continual elimination of sources of federal revenue are also in favor of continued increases in federal spending, for their own pet causes and projects only, of course. This has resulted in the GOP borrow-and-spend playbook of the last eight years, and in the Democratic "don't tax in a recession" concession of 2009.

    Politicians will all chant the mantra once more in '10, most likely, but watch for the distinctions.

    My prediction is that Republicans will chant the old-style "All taxation is confiscatory" mantra, while Democrats will begin to promise not "no new taxes ever," but "no taxes until we're sure this recovery thing is working."

    Republicans will of course point, scream "AHA!!!" and fall all over themselves with impassioned repetition of the canard that taxes are always too high.

    We'll see how deep-rooted this shift is as the years pass. My own belief is that the shift is deep, and rooted in a variety of causes:

    1) a generational shift from me-oriented boomers and xers to more we-oriented millennials;

    2) A seminal event in autumn of 2008 that gave the lie to the idea that taxation is confiscation from the rich -- who earn it fair and square -- to give it to the poor, who are incompetent and/or lazy;

    3) This one is subtler... Being an old fart myself, and one who has run his own business during several tax cycles, I can tell you straight up that I was more irritated by the paperwork than the actual taxation -- even taxation of tens of thousands of dollars on a pretty modest income. With technological advances -- including instant electronic filing, but just as importantly electronic preparation -- much anger misplaced from preparing taxes to the amount of taxation has been eliminated. I don't think this aspect has been widely acknowledged, if in fact it was a real input to previous attitudes to taxation (and therefore a real lack of input on the anti-taxation side.)

    Looking forward to any thoughtful responses to the shifting landscape in attitudes toward taxation; please check the fairy tales at the door, if you can manage to do so, and address the attitudinal shifts in evidence, rather than your own belief in the rightness or wrongness of the fact of taxation.

    :D

    PFnV
     
  2. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actual polling data results in

    [crickets]

    God you guys are bush league. Small B.

    PFnV
     
  3. Kdo5

    Kdo5 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Well those 2/3's need a reality check. Whose fault is it for increasing the deficit in the first place? The rich or the government?

    Just 47% of Americans think capitalism is better than socialism? I have to say if the polls are legit, I am losing quite a bit of faith. Socialism has and always will be a terrible economic system.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2010
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I got curious about that first poll, especially since your link took me to the Brecht forum and apparently the New York Marxist school! Well done, PFinVA. So I went to the source of the poll and, sure enough, 2/3rds of people do prefer taxing the rich. Specifically, 65% supported the idea of paying for changes to health care policy by imposing an income surtax on individuals earning $500,000 or more a year and on couples earning $1 million or more a year.

    Americans Grow More Pessimistic on Economy, Nation?s Direction - Bloomberg.com
    (Click on poll results and methodology; then go to page 5.)
     
  5. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    53% favor Capitalism. Only 20% favor Socialism. The other 27% are too busy eating chips, watching TV then blaming insurance companies for their heart attack to have any idea.
     
  6. PatsFanInVa

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    27% actually said they're not sure, but were not further characterized as eating chips, watching TV, or assigning blame for a heart attack. These characterizations have been added by BelichickFan. Evidently the data themselves are insufficient to lead the reader to that conclusion :)

    I take it you believe that's about the usual proportion, and the usual proportion who really aren't sure whether capitalism is a good way to run the country, among Americans? I mean, historically speaking?
     
  7. patsfan13

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    Gee people want free stuff and want the other guy to pay for it what a shock.

    Too bad they didn't ask what % the"rich" should pay, that probably would have shown that that most people don't understand how much the rich already pay.


    57% want an across the board spending cut in discretionary spending that is encouraging as well as the negative numbers congress is seeing, they are even less popular than Wall St CEO's.
     
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I don't know what the historical number is. I was just pointing out there was a very high number of "don't knows" compared to normal polls. While your original statement was not inaccurate, it was a little misleading.
     
  9. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'll cop to that. It's straight outta the rightie playbook, after all. "Don't Know" is indeed 27%, but "Socialism is better" is polling at 20%.

    I'd be shocked to find that in 2006, only 53% were sure that Capitalism was the best way to run an economy, and even more shocked to find that 20% simply said "Oh, easy, that would be Socialism."
     
  10. Kdo5

    Kdo5 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    So may I ask what your stance is? I may be wrong but it appears that you are pleased to find that favor for capitalism is down, do you prefer socialism?

    Of course theres nothing wrong with picking that side. Although it is in my opinion an unfeasible system.
     
  11. PatsFanInVa

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    As I stated above, I'm a free market guy, but think a mixed economy is inevitable in the modern age. I don't believe Socialism is a better system for ordering society. By Socialism, I don't mean things like social security and having income tax, by the way. I mean a command economy in which markets have no function.

    However, I believe that unregulated Capitalism is as failed a model as a top-down command economy, as recently dramatically demonstrated. I believe markets need regulation, and that government has a necessary role in promotion of social goods. A Market doesn't want society to succeed, and neither do any of the players therein. That's where the adult supervision comes in ;)

    I think we've been experimenting with deregulation to our detriment far too recklessly and for too long, and that taxation is a no-brainer necessity. The question is always what changes to taxation will be adopted, and to whose benefit (such as the transfer of taxation burdens down the socioeconomic ladder during the Bush regime.)

    That's pretty much where I fit in, in the center between the command-economy and market-purist ideologues.

    PFnV
     
  12. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    This thread is dumb :nono: ... sorry PFnVA ... got to call it as I see it.:cool3:

    What Americans want is what they've always wanted ...

    Sex :cool3:, booze :cool3:, smokes:cool3: , gambling:cool3:, pot :cool3: ... and porn. :p:p:p
     
  13. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Most Americans experience the greatest level of liberal views in their 20's almost without exception. As we grow older and closer to our retirement, we tend to worry about having an enjoyable (and work free) retirement.

    So whatever...or WHAT-EVAH the millenials desire is sure to change as they grow older, just as it always has. if you polled baby boomers back in the late 60's, you'd have gotten similar results.

    America has never developed gov't policy for, demographically targeted or worried about what people in their 20's want. Their turn will come about a generation from now.

    INCOMING!! I am certain SOMEONE is going to bombard me with facts about how active the millenials have been and how they put Barak Obama on the map, etc., etc.....

    But that was only because the moon was in the Seventh House And Jupiter aligned with Mars ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2010
  14. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey


    I guess I went against the mold. I was hard core conservative in my teens and 20's. Moderated a bit in my 30's and moved closer to the middle in my 40's. I hope I don't cross the line ... that will be an epic system failure if it happens.
     
  15. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    As with every rule, there are exceptions. You should feel proud that you didn't join the masses icyPat!
     
  16. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

    But given your response... just ask Foggy what he'd vote for every election, and do the opposite.
     
  17. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I'm definitely a rebel ... but unfortunately ... I have no cause.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. PatsFanInVa

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    DUDE! You FAKED YOUR OWN DEATH???

    Whoda thunkit... alive and well and posting on Patsfans.com!
     

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