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Wes Welker: Contract talks with Pats have gotten worse


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"Might try lightening up a little, while you're at it."

My grandfather says that prune juice helps alot in this area........


Mayo adds plenty to the conversation. It's simply your unbridled arrogance that prevents you from understanding that simply because you have a divergence of views doesn't mean he's not entitled to his opinion or contributing to the discussion.

Might try lightening up a little, while you're at it.
 
I really hope as a pats fan, that one football play that gets made or not doesn't dictate contract negotiations that will effect the team for multiple years. That's not a shot at you, but a lot of people are saying this and as a person that thinks Welker should have made that catch its ridiculous everytime I hear it.

You are right here and I am sure Kraft and BB are not looking at that one blown play as a difference maker in him getting a big contract or not. How many balls did Welk catch for this team in CRITICAL situations? Tons.....he has been so damned clutch. Yes...he did not make the catch on the ball from Brady (I know it might have been slightly high but even Welker conceded it hit me in both hands....I need to make that catch) which would have all but iced the SB for them....and that one hurt alot and sticks in many fans minds. But that one play does not stick in the minds of BB and Kraft. They are looking at it I would imagine as a player who is 31 years old with a history of a ACL repair that takes a TON of hits.....and has succeeded in this system but may not get utilized correctly elsewhere. I wish they had given him a GOOD contract 2 years ago or so....Now, he just doesn't have as much leverage. I love the guy for everything he has done here and he is a legend and true PATRIOT. I hope they can work something out...but doesn't look good...
 
I would certainly agree. I doubt that Belichick would be that incredibly short-sighted to even think twice about taking the 'drop' into consideration at all.

When you play in a big game, some breaks go your way, and some don't. In this case, I do certainly believe that Welker should have made the catch, but I don't think that it's anywhere near the level of A.Samuel blowing his coverage assignment on the David Tyree play. That's a whole different story right there, and I can envision that sticking in the minds of the front office.

I agree that things are not appearing to go too well, but there's still 2 months for the parties to reach an agreement.
 
The fact that Wes could not make that catch in the Superbowl highlighted why he should not be payed like an upper echelon receiver.Wes cannot make game changing plays , and when you absolutely need a big play you cannot go to him.In addition, he does not dictate coverage in such a way that he opens up opportunities for other receivers to make plays.So Wes should stop these demands for big money and accept the deal the patriots are offering because it values him appropriately.
 
The fact that Wes could not make that catch in the Superbowl highlighted why he should not be payed like an upper echelon receiver.Wes cannot make game changing plays , and when you absolutely need a big play you cannot go to him.In addition, he does not dictate coverage in such a way that he opens up opportunities for other receivers to make plays.So Wes should stop these demands for big money and accept the deal the patriots are offering because it values him appropriately.

Well you have to think, why is Brady throwing into 3 man coverage? If welker makes the catch its amazing, and 9 x out of ten he would, but still doesn't explain why the pass was there and not to an open receiver?
Maybe its because you had no open receivers? Besides that your guys dropped 2 perfectly thrown balls to others by Brady, so what is their excuse?
It never had to come to the Welker throw. If the others did their job.
 
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PFS74---I was under the initial impression that what you are saying was true, and that stayed true all the way up until....I forced myself to watch it again.

I think when you re-watch the replay you will see that it really should've been a catch. Just take a quick second to rewatch it on youtube.

If you still feel as though it would have been a "highlight reel for decades to come catch" (barring obvious sentimental reasons for winning the SB) then I guess we will just have to respectfully disagree on this one.

The TD catch by Patten in the SB back in 01 was a similar catch to Welker's dropped ball. It was David Patten Tribute - NFL Wide Receiver - YouTube

It's the last catch of the video. It starts at 4:30.
 
look..it's life...the Welker play is an apt description...sometimes you get the bull, sometimes you get the horns....move on
 
Well you have to think, why is Brady throwing into 3 man coverage? If welker makes the catch its amazing, and 9 x out of ten he would, but still doesn't explain why the pass was there and not to an open receiver?
Maybe its because you had no open receivers? Besides that your guys dropped 2 perfectly thrown balls to others by Brady, so what is their excuse?
It never had to come to the Welker throw. If the others did their job.

With all respect Pherein (always buddy), I believe that the 2 dropped passes that you are thinking of occured on the very last drive.

IIRC, one was to Branch (who later made up for it on the big 4th down catch), and the other to Hernandez. Both were right in the WR's hands, but at that time it was likely too late anyway.

I believe that the Welker 'drop' (mishap?) occured with about 4 minutes left, and was on the drive prior to that one. On top of that, I don't remember Brady throwing it into "triple coverage" as you describe. If it was considered triple coverage, Welker was SURELY open enough to make the grab.

If you want, check it out on youtube. I am sure there are many versions of it from NYJ and NYG fans all around :eek:

It only takes a second, and you'll get a much better look at it. It appears that Brady was going to Wes from the get go, and he was plenty 'open' enough to make the grab.

As Joker stated, sometimes you make the grab, and sometimes you don't, so I won't cry over spilt milk at this point, but Welker should've had the catch--no doubt about it. It really wasn't as hard as some make it out to be, as 'silly' as that may sound coming from a fan. In other words, I don't blame Brady one bit at all.

Now if you're saying that no one else was open throughout the game due to the Gronk injury, then I will buy that on some level...although we must also remember that Tom terrific also set a new SB record for SIXTEEN consecutive completions, so someone had to be open at some point. I will agree that we could've used just one more viable target though.

At any rate, it was the 2nd SB in a row where we lost under 61 seconds, so there certainly were many other variables that went 'wrong.' It was much more than just the lack of another viable target.
 
The fact that Wes could not make that catch in the Superbowl highlighted why he should not be payed like an upper echelon receiver.Wes cannot make game changing plays , and when you absolutely need a big play you cannot go to him.In addition, he does not dictate coverage in such a way that he opens up opportunities for other receivers to make plays.So Wes should stop these demands for big money and accept the deal the patriots are offering because it values him appropriately.

I don't think this assessment is very fair at all.


There have been plenty of big grabs and big games where Welker has proven his worth...hell, he's been Brady's go-to WR for 5 yrs straight now.

Saying that he shouldn't be paid like an upper echelon WR is one thing, as I do agree on some level (although he should be paid pretty damn close); but to say that he "cannot make game changing plays" is kind of silly, no?

When the chips are down, Welker is the man that you want to go to. Don't let the recent emergence of the TE's fool you. This offense revolves around Wes Welker, and that is the #1 reason why the NEP should find a fair balance and strike a deal for him to remain here for another 3 or so yrs.

The statement that "he does not dictate coverage" in the right way is also somewhat short-sighted, as I do believe that other teams' #1 CB's have been on him from the beginning of the game and often failed. Didn't Revis cover Wes during some of the NYJ matchups recently? I know that Welker beat Revis on that long 70 yd gainer in the 1st NYJ matchup last yr....and I also thought that Champ Bailey drew the assignment in the DEN game this yr too.
 
Ian Rapoport on why the Pats "fear commitment" to Wes Welker:

Why New England Patriots fear commitment to Wes Welker | News | NFL.com

FWIW. Interesting read.

It is indeed an interesting read, MC. Thanks for posting it.

I'm not personally sure about the comparisons to Troy Brown though, even if he had a much diminished role in '04, he also was very effective in playing slot CB on defense. My guess is that IF they had chosen to make T.Brown a large part of the offense still, that he likely could've answered the call. Just my opinion though.

I also think the 'potential hits' factor that Welker takes is the #1 fear, but we've also seen him play it safely and go down a lot, avoiding contact on some level. I realize that (in BB's words) "he's going to get lit up" more often than not, but in my opinion some of those hits have been lessened to some degree. A football player is always going to take hits, and 83 will take many more than most, but I don't know if that's a good enough reason NOT to offer him a 'fair' 2 year (at least, if not 3) deal.

When someone is coming off a 125 catch/1600 yd performance, and was 30 yrs old a couple weeks ago, a 2 year deal for something slightly raised over the inital 16 million would seem to be the 'fair' thing to do.

Even if it's 'only' 17--17.5 over 2 yrs, that would still amount to between 8.5 and 9 million per. I would have a feeling that the NEP could sweat it out for 2 more yrs, especially considering that they are perfectly fine with doing it this year.

What's one more yr? That would lock him up over the 2012 and 2013 seasons. If he is still showing enough, then they can go from there. If they already offered him 16, I wouldn't see why 17 or 17.5 couldn't get the deal done. It would show good faith and fairness from the team itself, coming up from their offer to a 'fair' market value for a guy like Welker. More importantly, it would keep him here for 2 more yrs.

It seems so damn easy, although I realize common sense would say that it isn't.
 
I think what you are all missing is that the Pats are not going to pay Welker on what he has done, but what they think he will do in the future. Age and wear are a huge factor in that equation. Lots of folks want the Pats to pay him for what he has done and that is never going to happen. That's history that is almost guaranteed never going to repeat itself and the Pats are not going to put themselves in a position where they are paying top money to a declining player if they can avoid it. I'm not saying Wes is declining but the odds are not on his side for future longevity playing this brutal sport. The other part of this is that his payday somewhere else is never going to exceed what the Pats have offered him unless it's typical contract funny money. He should go to the mat with the Pats for as much guaranteed money as he can get and take it, IMHO (which is what I think he is doing). Comparing Wes to young top level receiver talent to set his contract worth is just a lot of BS put out there by the media dolts and fans.
 
I think what you are all missing is that the Pats are not going to pay Welker on what he has done, but what they think he will do in the future.

You might want to read what's been already written in this thread before making such a statement:

The Patriots organization isn't in the habit of giving "Thanks for the Memories" contracts.
(post #38)

You are clearly in the camp that believe Welker should be paid for his PAST production. And if I believed in this philosophy, I'd be hammering the Pats too. But I believe in creating contracts that pay for expected FUTURE production.
(post #78)

You keep making the claim that people want Welker paid for past performance when people are saying precisely the opposite, except to note that past performance is always part of salary.
(post #92)
 
PFS74---I was under the initial impression that what you are saying was true, and that stayed true all the way up until....I forced myself to watch it again.

I think when you re-watch the replay you will see that it really should've been a catch. Just take a quick second to rewatch it on youtube.

If you still feel as though it would have been a "highlight reel for decades to come catch" (barring obvious sentimental reasons for winning the SB) then I guess we will just have to respectfully disagree on this one.

OK. I'll gather the courage to re-watch it. It's not as bad as SB XLII, which I still haven't been able to rewatch, but I thought I needed another couple of months.
 
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Welker should have made that catch, no question about it.

OK. That's two people in a row whose opinion I usually respect who disagree with me...so, I'll rewatch on Youtube later in the day and let ya know what i think.
 
If brady throws 3 picks in the SB and we lose is Brady on the block? Is this Brady's last contract due to one bad performance? Will it affect negotiations at the end of his deal eventually? The answer is unequivocally, no.

It's a tough play, but it's still one play.

Classic case of arguing against what I didn't say. I said making the catch would have had a positive impact; i didn't way that not making it should have a negative impact. Those are two completely different statements. If you don't see the difference, go back over the notes of your Logic course at school.
 
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It sure would suck if we ditched Welker because Wayne Chrebet got too many concussions.
 
If you're truly looking at the contracts in that way then yes it doesn't make sense, but that's more because looking only at the new years of one and the total years of the other doesn't make sense. Mayo's contract: signed him through his prime years, allowed the Pats to finagle cap hits, and payed him fair value. There's really nothing about it that makes it an outlier.

IMO the problem with the WW situation is that there isn't a lot of room between the franchise money/years and fair money/years.

If you look back at all the other early deals they did (Light, Koppen, Warren, Brady) it is an outlier because none of them ever approached top of the market new money in early extensions - although Koppen's was top 5 before factoring in the remaining rookie year. That used to be the rule for landing one here, you didn't land in the top 3 let alone set a new bar. Seymour did, but then he only got 3 years at that money and after factoring in his remaining rookie year he didn't as that lowered his average by $2M. And with the exception of Brady's second extension and Warren's, they were in in their final season, often a month or more into it.

Brady's second deal in the spring of his final year on his rookie deal after he'd been the SB MVP was for $6M per in new money. Rookie #1 draft QB Alex Smith's contract AAV that year was $8M. In 2005 after the third championship when Brady got $10M per in new money that then put him in Eli Manning's range, but $3M per behind Eli's older brothers 2004 deal...

When Branch left it was over being offered $4M times 5 in new money less having to play out the final rookie deal year. Seattle gave him $7M times 6 after the trade.

They fought with Mankins when he wanted top of the market $7M+ in new money. They made him wait til his rookie deal was up and then RFA'd him and offered $7M per in new money plus one year at $3M that would lower the AAV to $6.5. That's why he held out. And for him it worked since he ended up a year later getting top of the market $8.5M per in new money...thru age 33. Ordway kept pointing to his holding out yesterday as a smart strategy but claiming he never made back the lost money from that holdout season. Wrong. He got $2M more over the next 6 so he's made it back and more. Whether he makes it through the whole 6 years or not he made out, too, since he got $30M guaranteed and they were only offering $25M on the earlier deal.

Brady finally topped the market, briefly before Peyton matched him, in his last deal. But only in new money because again there was that one year remaining on the old deal.

There just isn't a lot of rhyme or reason to it anymore. I know they don't have a lot of room between what Welker wants and the tag, but remember - the tag isn't what it used to be. The average of the top 5 WR's in 2011 was $11.5M. Only the tag formula just changed to the point it isn't top 5 money anymore - it's $2M less. It probably isn't even top 10. And back in the day they were always up against the cap, not the case now as with Welker under the tag they are $14M (more than 10%) under. Why they restructured Brady is anyone's guess because that money will either go to an extensions later this year or have to be rolled over into 2013 when we are already again well under even a flat cap.

And again, it's not like Welker is 33, he's 31 so he has three seasons to even get there. They could easily structure a 4 year deal at $8M per that would be cap friendly now and in the future by frontloading all of the guaranteed money in year 1 and 2 salary requiring only a modest signing bonus giving them flexibility on the backend including to cut him or his salary with little dead cap consequence in the final season or even sooner.

My new theory is maybe Rap is on to something and they are afraid of him becoming another Wayne Chrebet. But Chrebet, who never remotely approached Welker's production, had a long history of concussions ignored which led to him hitting the wall early. So unless there is something going on with Welker that we've never been apprised of via injury report... I just don't get it.

The Troy Brown comp is ridiculous IMO. Troy was never the same after he injured his knee, and it wasn't even an ACL - which Wes already rebounded from. Browns was more cumulative wear and tear that forced surgery 11 seasons into his career at age 32 from which he never fully rebounded. He lost his remarkable first step entirely at 33, and that first step was the centerpiece of his game. Wes won't even be 33 for 3 more seasons...and he's only got 8 seasons on his knees at this point. I've seen a few pundits raise the issue of the ACL history, but nowadays a repaired ACL once rehabbed successfully is stronger than a non repaired one. A receiver like Colston with multiple micro fractures on both knees, that's a different equation. And he just got a 5 year $40M extension with $19M guaranteed...at 29.
 
Comparing Wes to young top level receiver talent to set his contract worth is just a lot of BS put out there by the media dolts and fans.

Your last sentence is the least informed statement ever posted on patsfan.com, and that, my friend, is saying a lot. There is no receiver in the league that compares with Wes Welker.

Only Gale Sayers had more all-purpose yards in his first three NFL seasons than Wes Welker did with the Dolphins; Welker holds the Dolphins' all-time records for total kickoff returns, kickoff return yardage, total punt returns, and return touchdowns.

As a Patriot, Wes Welker led the league in receptions in 2007, 2009 and 2011. Welker holds the four highest single-season reception totals in Patriots history, as well as four of the top ten receiving yardage totals, including the franchise record. He also holds the franchise records for most receptions in a single game, most receiving yards in a single game, and longest reception.

Wes Welker, who had three consecutive 110-reception seasons, is the only receiver in NFL history with at least 110 receptions in any three seasons. He has also been selected to the Pro Bowl, the All-Pro Team, or both, in every season of his Patriots career.

We are watching the 21st Century version of Johnny Unitas to Raymond Berry in Brady to Welker.
 
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