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Wes Welker: Contract talks with Pats have gotten worse


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If his age is such an issue they should've given him the money a couple years ago.
A couple years ago, Welker was rehabbing a torn ACL and we didn't know if he'd ever be the same. A year ago, he was coming off a 848 yard season. There was no incentive for the Welker camp to talk contract details either of the last two offseasons, because they would've gotten screwed over in the long run.
 
there's also something to be said for abusing his loyalty to the team. Clearly [insert name here] likes it here, loves playing with Brady and co. and wants to be a Patriot. The Pats using that fact to squeeze every last dime from [insert name here] is pretty ugly business, along with the poor message it sends to other players that loyalty is 100% a one way street. Especially when using [insert name here] show of loyalty in not protracting this thing as an opportunity to drop the offer on [insert name here]. That's just slimeball stuff. If I'm a player coming onto the Pats I'm asking myself if that loyalty is something I want to bother with at all.

I swear I've heard this argument for the past eight years or so. I like Welker and hope he gets signed now that the Pats have done alot to bolster the defense and still afford him. But if these negotiations sour more and he demands a trade, and they honor it, "In Bill We Trust."
 
I would be very upset with the organization if Wes isn't retained long term, and their best offer truly was for 2 years 16 million.
 
I swear I've heard this argument for the past eight years or so. I like Welker and hope he gets signed now that the Pats have done alot to bolster the defense and still afford him. But if these negotiations sour more and he demands a trade, and they honor it, "In Bill We Trust."

Ok then, insert a name that signed the tag early and then saw the Pats drop their offer.

Like others have said, this has hurt the Pats before. It's not as if we've worked some magic that other teams haven't. We've kept a lot of our good players and seen others go even when the cap space was there. Some at the expense of a Superbowl win.
 
Ok then, insert a name that signed the tag early and then saw the Pats drop their offer.

Like others have said, this has hurt the Pats before. It's not as if we've worked some magic that other teams haven't. We've kept a lot of our good players and seen others go even when the cap space was there. Some at the expense of a Superbowl win.

Obviously, I'm not privy to the details of their negotiations, but I'd be willing to bet it's happened before.
 
Having given up his contractual leverage, he may feel that his remaining leverage is to make a PR stink.

Also, Welker is not famous for his ability to keep his mouth shut.
 
enjoy his last season here..becasue after this year he is gone
 
Why?

No seriously. I know that is the common perception of players and fans, but let's look at the scenario as he sees it.

He does 2 years at 8 mil a year and does awesome. He then negotiates another big time contract. Instead of four years with one signing bonus he gets two two year deals with two signing bonuses.

Now let's look at the worst case scenario.

In year one he does OK, but not 8 million. In year two he is obviously in decline and everyone is saying "8 mil?" With a four year contract he is cut instead of getting paid his 8 mil. With a two year he negotiates based on his new lower production or retires.

Why would any player want longer years in a sport where the team can cut you and limit the length of the deal anyway has always been a mystery to me. Perhaps all their agents are secretly working for the owners.

Because Welker could earn more over a 4 year contract.

For example 4 years @ 25 Mil w/16 Mil signing bonus. Welker still gets 16 Mil guaranteed, but is able to earn more in salary and incentives the first few years. If hes lost it at the back end of the contract, I think hes well aware of the outcome.
 
Reiss on the Welker situation:

1. Clarity on state of negotiations. Welker's remarks make it clear that he didn't sign the franchise tag because momentum had built in contract talks. At first, one might have read it as the negotiations taking a downward turn after Welker signed the franchise tag, which would have really stung Welker. But this seemed to be a general comment about the state of negotiations since the 2011 season. Some important context there from a timing standpoint.

The Pats put a value on every player in the organization. Sometimes that valuation is at odds with the player's perception and/or with what the market will pay. The Pats tend to be fairly inflexible, for better or worse. One can argue that this caused the team to lose Asante Samuel and Deion Branch, and possibly cost as a SB or two. One can also argue that those players got overpaid by other teams and under-produced for those teams. Both were traded for relatively little before their contracts expired.

The Pats' valuation of Welker was certainly based on a number of considerations, including the market, his age, his fit in the system, his rapport with Brady, his loyalty and personality, the potential replacements if he were to leave, and how a long term deal for him would impact retaining other players. Personally I doubt the missed reception in the SB had anything to do with it. The Pats aren't that nearsighted. But I do suspect that the Pats' valuation wasn't affected that much by the fact that the FA WR market went crazy. Just because other teams chose to overspend ridiculously on WRs doesn't mean that the Pats should do so.

I also think that the Pats love Welker, and would love to keep him. He's a perfect Patriot. It's not personal. But they are going to value their salary structure and the cap above individual "loyalty" to a player, and they will never pay based on past performance. One can argue that Welker was a bargain for 5 years at $17M. However, at the time people thought the Pats were overpaying terribly for a diminutive slot receiver without great speed.

2. Welker's public approach. The Patriots generally prefer to keep negotiations private. Welker has taken a different approach. This isn't likely to help him at the negotiating table.

I've addressed this before. Going public with dissatisfaction won't get Welker anywhere. He's doing it much more diplomatically than Logan Mankins did, but the Pats don't respond to strong arm tactics in any form.

3. Projecting team's point of view. In attempting to think from a team perspective, a few factors that could be driving the decision-making process are the NFL's projected flat salary cap over the next few years, coupled with star tight ends Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez having contracts that expire after the 2013 season. Safety Patrick Chung and offensive lineman Sebastian Vollmer, two other higher-end players, have deals that expire after 2012. The Patriots seem willing to extend a bit for the 31-year-old Welker, but it appears clear they have an end point and aren't budging far from it because of these factors.

I've also addressed this before. Unlike several posters on this board, it seems that Reiss DOES believe that a long term deal for Welker could have contract implications for Gronkowski and Hernandez. Particularly Hernandez, IMHO. Jermichael Finley tried to argue that he should be compensated as a WR because Green Bay often used him split out as a WR. Hernandez could make a similar argument. A long term deal for Welker (> 2 years) could cut in to the money that the Pats have allocated to the TE and WR positions and into their willingness to pony up for Gronk and AHern.

4. Welker's final year in New England? If the Patriots placed the franchise tag on Welker next year, it would be at $11.4 million. That is a 20 percent increase from this year's tag figure of $9.5 million. Considering that Tom Brady's cap number next year will be around $22 million, the Patriots would have about 28 percent of their cap tied up in two players, which makes one think a '13 tag for Welker is unlikely and he will hit the open market (unless Brady's deal is tweaked, which is always a possibility). That makes it a stronger possibility that this could be Welker's final season in New England.

The Pats aren't "disloyal" to their high end players. As I've argued earlier, they generally pay their core players well. But they aren't going to break the bank for anyone, and they pay more attention to the salary structure of the back end of the roster than most teams. No player helps your team much if they are injured, and injuries are a fact of life in the NFL. It's poor business strategy under the salary cap to squander a disproportionate amount of your cap space on a few top players.

5. Negotiations can be harsh. A $9.5 million payday is significant, so Welker won't get sympathy from many. At the same time, his comments expose the hard edge that can be part of negotiations. Welker has done a lot for the Patriots over the last five years, and in many ways, has been the heart and soul of the team. There is a part of this that could make one say, "Welker deserves better." But business is business and the Patriots have had past success with their approach. Even quarterback Tom Brady's negotiation with the team wasn't easy. Neither were Vince Wilfork's and Logan Mankins' negotiations.

If he plays out the 2012 season under his franchise tag, Welker will have made $26.5M over the past 6 years with the Pats. He shouldn't qualify for food stamps any time soon. He may not have hit the jackpot the way some players have who deserved it much less, but he hasn't exactly suffered.

Sharing some Welker thoughts - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Does Welker "deserve" to be paid more than $8M/year? Based on past performance, and based on what other lesser receivers have gotten in free agency, of course he does. It's ridiculous that Pierre Garcon should get paid more than Welker. But from the perspective of the salary cap, his role with the team, market compensation for a 31 year old slot receiver, and how a long term deal might affect other players, it's not so obvious that that is the best move for the team.

You can view the Pats' stance as a "slap in the face" and an insult to a loyal and deserving player. You can view it is being penny poor and pound foolish. Or you can view it is prudent and disciplined management under the salary cap that is unrelated to how members of the organization personally feel about Welker. It's not clear right now what the "right" answer is.
 
I love Wes but he needs to shut up about the contract negotiations. Seriously. There is one thing that the Pats have shown in the past is that discussing the ongoing negotiations in the press gets you no where with them.
 
I think you hit the nail right on the head. The Pats weren't willing to offer more than 2 years guaranteed because they have to pay Gronk and Hernandez once their deals expire.

What if the Pats offered Welker a backloaded deal to diminish the dead money hit, and they could cut him after say year 4 without too much salary cap impact?

12 mill guaranteed (1.7m per year bonus), 4m roster bonus in year 3, 4m roster bonus in year 4
7 years
Base salary 6m 7m 1m 2m 8m 9m 10m

That equals
63m/7 years

I know year 5/6/7 are funny money but it lets the agent say he got his client a 9m per year long term deal.
 
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I love Wes Welker as a player, but he is not an elite wide receiver. I never look at him and think he can take it to the house on any play, especially when far away from the endzone. Elite wide receivers should be able to generate that threat. That is where elite pay comes into play. The real threat of scoring long yardage touchdowns is what elite wide receivers need to bring to the table. Welker has never scored over 9 touchdowns in a season.

Do yourself a favor and look up what the average number of TDs for #1 WRs is in the league..

With all the receivers in play (especially Lloyd and Gaffney) whop can line up on the perimeter and take it deep being paired with the two young tight ends I really think the Patriots would not miss a beat and be even harder to defend without him.

Sorry, but you are talking out your arse if you think that any of the WRs currently on the roster would make the fans "forget" about Welker or that the Pats would not miss a beat without him. What you fail to grasp is that Gronk and Hernandez have been successful because of Welker being on the field, not despite Welker being on the field.

Where this all gets tricky is that I believe people are mixing a great emotional story with reality. Welker is the quintessential little engine that could. He is the good soldier. He is the Hollywood story of the hero who did everything right and wins in the end. This is not hollywood.

There was a fullback in the 90's named Larry Centers who had production close to a wide receiver. Wes reminds me more of him than a Randy Moss or Calvin Johnson.

*ROFLMAO* Larry Centers production was that of a WR because the Cardinals had no one else to get the ball too. If you look at Centers stats, He only had more than 80 receptions 3 times during his career. And he only had 7 TDs once. The rest of the time, he had between 1 and 3. And centers best YPC was only 9.5.

Larry Centers NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Compare that to Welker who has had 4 years with more than 100 receptions. He's had 3 years where he's had 7TDs or more. And he's averaged OVER 10 YPC every year with the Pats except one. And that was the year he was returning from ACL surgery.
Wes Welker NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

OH, and Welker has more receiving TDs (32) during his 5 years with the Pats than Centers had over his entire 14 year career (28).

Your comparison fails on so many levels. There are different types of "ELITE" wide receivers. You say that Wes can't burn defenses, yet Wes had the record for the longest TD reception in Patriots history at 99 yards. Wes was running more routes OUTSIDE last year than he had in previously and it showed by the significant increase in his YPC.

Welker had nearly 1600 yards receiving last year. And that is with Gronk and Hernandez in their second year of the offense. That's pretty damn amazing. It's not likely that Welker will repeat that, but I see no reason why he can't grab 100 receptions again for over 1000 yards and 7-9 TDs. Even with Lloyd on the team. The addition of Lloyd opens things up for Welker, Gronkowski and Hernandez. However, you take away Welker and you lose the best intermediate route runner the Pats have. Yes, he's better than Gaffney. And Gaffney can't make up 100 catches and It's unlikely that Gaffney and Lloyd could make up the 173 receptions that Branch and Welker had last year. And that is what you'd be asking them to do.
 
I think you hit the nail right on the head. The Pats weren't willing to offer more than 2 years guaranteed because they have to pay Gronk and Hernandez once their deals expire.

What if the Pats offered Welker a backloaded deal to diminish the dead money hit, and they could cut him after say year 4 without too much salary cap impact?

12 mill guaranteed (1.7m per year bonus), 4m roster bonus in year 3, 4m roster bonus in year 4
7 years
Base salary 6m 7m 1m 2m 8m 9m 10m

That equals
63m/7 years

I know year 5/6/7 are funny money but it lets the agent say he got his client a 9m per year long term deal.

You are ignoring the 30% rule that prevents what you are mentioning from happening.

Also, the Pats have more than enough money to extend Gronk and Hernandez right NOW with leaving Welker where he's at.. Having the money available 2 years down the line isn't the issue. The issue is that the Pats see Welker as being worth 2 years and 16 million. That sort of deal protects them. I could see them adding a 3rd year at 9 million and not guaranteeing it.
 
I think you hit the nail right on the head. The Pats weren't willing to offer more than 2 years guaranteed because they have to pay Gronk and Hernandez once their deals expire.

What if the Pats offered Welker a backloaded deal to diminish the dead money hit, and they could cut him after say year 4 without too much salary cap impact?

12 mill guaranteed (1.7m per year bonus), 4m roster bonus in year 3, 4m roster bonus in year 4
7 years
Base salary 6m 7m 1m 2m 8m 9m 10m

That equals
63m/7 years

I know year 5/6/7 are funny money but it lets the agent say he got his client a 9m per year long term deal.

I think you have the right idea, but I also think that it wouldn't take quite what you're suggesting either.

I think the idea is great, but I don't think it would take anything close to the money/number of yrs to get this deal done. Of course I could be way off, but that's just my personal opinion.

I tend to feel that 4 yrs with about 30-35 million could get it done, which is still way off from what the team is supposedly currently offering.

EDIT: As DaBruinz points out, the 5-6-7 yrs would not be in line w/ the 30% rule, and I didn't look at it long enough or catch that. Regardless, I think there needs to be a dummy yr in there somewhere, but it shouldn't have to be past the 3rd or 4th yr.
 
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I love Wes but he needs to shut up about the contract negotiations. Seriously. There is one thing that the Pats have shown in the past is that discussing the ongoing negotiations in the press gets you no where with them.

Yup. And I think he deserves evey penny of his $9.5 million and whatever he gets next year as a franchise player or a free agent and then some. In fact in the end I expect he will wind up with more guaranteed over these two years than if he'd have gotten a long term contract last year or this (assuming he stays healthy and productive... Always a big "if".)

But now, one year later, one year older, having just agreed to a one year contract and thus having no immediate leverage, I don't know why anyone would be expecting an offer of the same amount or more.

It just defies logic from a football business sense. I know Wes runs the risk of injury now, but he really can't be expecting he Patriots to assume that risk and guarantee more money without getting a discount in return at this point.
 
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I could see them adding a 3rd year at 9 million and not guaranteeing it.

I think this would be key, whether it's in the 3rd yr or the 4th yr.

As things go right now, it would likely be in the 3rd yr.
 
I think that the Patriots have a negotiating system that has a lot of good points, but also has a couple of major problems in terms of how it impacts the players at the top. I think they know about the problems and don't really care that those problems are there, because they largely view loyalty as a one way street.

I have a hard time understanding this. Brady was the highest paid player in the NFL when he signed his deal. Wilfork, Mankins and Mayo were all among the top-5 paid players at their respective positions when they signed their deals. I'm not sure how that is a problem in terms of how the players at the top are compensated. It seems pretty equitable to me.

The Pats tend to value depth and the middle-to-bottom part of the roster more than most teams, so they are perhaps less prone to throw huge contracts at players who haven't earned them only to find that they underperform their contracts. They learned that mistake the hard way with Adalius Thomas. And no player is immune to injury, or good enough to help the team when injured. The Pats value quality depth perhaps more than they value "elite" starters, and given the salary cap, that creates some strain. Given their track record of success over the past decade, it is hard to argue with their philosophy.

You say that the Pats view loyalty as a "one way street". I don't think so. I think they generously reward players who have proven themselves and who have present and future value. But they are a business, and they manage to keep their personal feelings for players separate from their business dealings. I'm sure many people in the organization revere Wes Welker more than anyone on this board. But that won't cause the FO to give him a deal that outweighs his perceived present and future value. That may seem callous and "disloyal", but it's also prudent business practice.

Of course, it's a subjective calculation what a player's actual "value" is. The FO's perception may not be the same as yours, mine, or the market's. You can argue that the Pats under-valued Asante Samuel and foolishly lost him when they could have locked him up long term. You can also argue that the market over-valued Samuel and that the Eagles paid him way too much. The same goes for guys the Pats have signed. The Ravens decided in 2007 that Adalius Thomas was a product of their system, that Jarrett Johnson was a capable replacement, and that his value on the open market exceeded his worth to the organization. History has proven them correct, and the Pats were the ones who over-valued and over-compensated Thomas.
 
I think that opening with 2/$16m was an insult to someone who would obviously be able to make more than that on the open market and would be able to get just under $21 million in 2 years under the franchise tag. I think that the Patriots now offering less, if true, is a disgrace and a bad negotiating tactic because of the message it sends to other players. Then again, I also think Welker was an idiot for signing his tender.

As for overpaying Welker, I'll go back to what I've been maintaining on this. Given how woefully underpaid Welker was in his last contract, I've got no sympathy for the "don't want to overpay" argument. If the Patriots had gone to Welker and worked out an extension last year, they could have probably gotten Welker into the fold long term, paid Welker more along the lines of what he was worth last year, and gotten the extra years for less than he'll likely cost after this year's WR salary bonanza.

Deus - The 2years/16million was an extension offer that the team made during the 2011 season according to the article.

I do agree that asking Welker to take a 23% discount off the franchise tag is not good business. However, that could have also been the Pats initial offer and they might have expected Welker to counter. However, I can remember that Welker said, specifically, that he wasn't going to worry about a contract during the season last year. So, if that is the case and he chose not to send a counter offer, who's fault is it, really?
 
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On a different note. Where do you come up with 21.5 million for the franchise amount for 2 years? This year's was 9.5 million. The tag isn't going to jump 3 million for next season.

The rule is that if you use the franchise tag on a player for a consecutive year then you must pay him 120% of the tag value from the previous year. Since Welker's tag is $9.5M this year, tagging him in 2013 would cost $11.4M. The cost of the combined 2 years would be $20.9M, or almost $21M.
 
Here are Larry Fitzgerald's and Wes Welker's stats from 2007-2011. I also included stats from Mike Wallace 2009-2011.

Pay attention to the bold. That is what makes elite receivers. Do you think Welker is a threat to score from anywhere on the field.

Wes Welker-2007-2011 avg
554 total receptions 110.8 receptions per year avg.
6105 total receiving yards 1221 yearly receiving yards avg.
31 total touchdowns 6.2 per year avg.
11.01 yard per catch avg.
Every 17.87 receptions is a touchdown.
197 yards to get a touchdown


Larry Fitzgerald-2007-2011 avg
463 total receptions 92.6 receptions per year avg.
6480 total receiving yards 1296 yearly receiving yards avg.
14 yard per catch avg.
49 touchdowns 9.8 per year avg.
Every 9.45 catches is a touchdown
132 yards to get a touchdown



Mike Wallace 2009-2011
171 total receptions 57 receptions per year avg.
3206 total receiving yards 1068. 66 yearly receiving yards avg.
24 total touchdowns 8 per year avg.
18.7 yard per catch avg.
Every 7.13 receptions is a touchdown.
134 yards to get a touchdown
 
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