Wes Welker - A Deion Branch clone?

[chrisjnelson]

I'm really not trying to be confrontational. I have great respect for the Patriots. The only thing I hate about them is that they are really good and well-run, haha.

I just don't know what you're expecting out of Welker. If you're expecting 40 catches and a decent returner, then fine. I just don't think any production you get out of him will warrant the price you paid in trade. It's not that Welker can't help a team, it's that those picks (especially the second) could feasibly help a lot more.

 

[DaBruinz]

Rodney Harrison wouldn't say anything bad about the trade. Everyone is always optimistic when it comes to thinks like that. You can't take the word of a current player because there's only ONE stance he will take, and it'll be full of cliches.

I know what Welker is, more than any Pats fan here because I've seen him a lot more. I believe I actually have an admin who is a Pats fan here (though that could be another Pats forum) and he knows I know my stuff, especially when it comes to the Dolphins. (EDIT: It is this forum, his name is pats1.)

I'm sorry it bothers you, but Welker is average at best, and a second-round pick alone is worth more than something average. He may help your team, but I think that second would have helped you more, and it certainly will help Miami more. Welker is very replaceable, and some of you guys are just giving him too much credit because you can't help but be optimistic.

First of all, You just got caught making an assumption. And it was pretty stupid of you to make the assumption you did. I didn't say that Rodney was talking up the trade. The fact is that Rodney revealed the Pats game plan against the Phins receivers. That the Pats had to put Welker in DOUBLE COVERAGE just to slow him down. THAT says a LOT more than some guy claiming to know football.

Secondly, Welker is better than average. You can sit there and claim he is average all you want, but you are fooling yourself. As for you having watched Welker more than myself, You might have me by a few games, but Welker has been one of my favorite players for the past couple of years and I was touting that I wanted the Pats to sign him this off-season long before they traded for him.

Third, you clearly don't understand the value of a GOOD slot receiver like Welker. Particularly when you have good receivers like Moss and Stallworth outside and a dman good QB like Brady who can get them the ball.

Lastly, you can name drop all you want, but that doesn't mean you know jack about football. You ignored the points I mentioned and basically sat there with your fingers in your ears saying "I'm not listening to you. Welker isn't good. You don't know what you are talking about." instead of dealing with the FACTS that were presented to you.

Your opinion is worthless so far. You come across as someone who is a bad egg and just wants to say garbage about a former player. You ignore facts and you haven't talked football worth a damn.

 

[DaBruinz]

I'm really not trying to be confrontational. I have great respect for the Patriots. The only thing I hate about them is that they are really good and well-run, haha.

I just don't know what you're expecting out of Welker. If you're expecting 40 catches and a decent returner, then fine. I just don't think any production you get out of him will warrant the price you paid in trade. It's not that Welker can't help a team, it's that those picks (especially the second) could feasibly help a lot more.

What I am expecting out of Welker is for him to be a productive player who adds a dynamic weapon to the Patriots game plans. A player who will put up between 40-80 receptions (depending on the Pats gameplan) and someone who will be a much better returner on the Pats than he was on a lousy Miami team just by virtue of the better special teams blocking the Pats offer.

 

[chrisjnelson]

I have nothing against Wes Welker, and I'm not trying to "trash" him. But not everyone is great, so is telling the truth about one of the players that isn't great "trashing?" Welker's a likable guy and he was fun to watch, but physically he has a ceiling and I believe he has already reached it.

I guess time will tell. Sorry to have angered you so. Good luck in 2007.

 

[DaBruinz]

I have nothing against Wes Welker, and I'm not trying to "trash" him. But not everyone is great, so is telling the truth about one of the players that isn't great "trashing?" Welker's a likable guy and he was fun to watch, but physically he has a ceiling and I believe he has already reached it.

I guess time will tell. Sorry to have angered you so. Good luck in 2007.

You've hardly angered me. All you have done is ignore facts when you claim to want to talk football.

By your lack of response regarding Chrebet and Brown, I am going to presume you've only been watching football for 3-4 years and never got to see them play when they were in their prime. They are proof that a GOOD slot receiver and returner is just as much of a weapon as a Randy Moss or Donte Stallworth. In fact, a GOOD slot receiver can be a terror against opposing teams, helping open up the field for the TE and outside receivers as well as the running game. And that is what I predict Welker will be for the Pats.

 

[spacecrime]

I can tell you with 100% certainty that the Patriots significantly overpaid for Welker, and that trade will prove to help the Dolphins more than it will New England I think. If any of you see Scott Pioli around town, tell him Dolphins fans say thank you for trying to improve our club and shorten the gap between the Dolphins and Patriots.

1. You can give your opinion, but you cannot say anything with absoluyte certainty.
Don't be ridiculous.

2. When I balance the track record of Patriots personnel movers vs. Dolphin personnel moves over the last few years, I have to go with the Pats. You should know that Dolphins fans such as yourself said with absolute certainty that all the Dolphins moves would bring them deep into the playoffs: Ricky Williams, AJ Feely, Dante Culpepper, and now letting Welker go and acquiring Ginn. The more things change, the more they stay the same. People talk about Pats fans drinking the Kool-Aid, but my God! at least we have justification. You guys drinking the Fins Kool-Aid have zero justification to believe ANYTHING will turn out right for your team. You have had a terrific defense for years and totally wasted it with stupid offense moves. Even if you finally do figure it out, by then you D will have turned over totally and you will still be a mediocre team overall. We used to be rivals. Now the best ou can do is say, "Yeah, you beat us two gains again this year, but at least we play you tough every time" like AquaVelvaBoy4Ever keeps saying.

If you think the Dolphins were improved by losing Welker, it merely shows that you are perfectly in tune with the Dolphins Front Office. At what point do you say, "Gee, why are we getting worse and the Pats and Jets getting better? Maybe they are making better personnel moves than we are."

 

[spacecrime]

By your lack of response regarding Chrebet and Brown, I am going to presume you've only been watching football for 3-4 years and never got to see them play when they were in their prime. They are proof that a GOOD slot receiver and returner is just as much of a weapon as a Randy Moss or Donte Stallworth. In fact, a GOOD slot receiver can be a terror against opposing teams, helping open up the field for the TE and outside receivers as well as the running game. And that is what I predict Welker will be for the Pats.

Not only that, but look at what type reciever the Dolphins and Colts each selected in the first round. While I think the Colts should have gone defense, their choice of a slot receiver as the best weapon for Manning speaks volumes. Dolphins went for flash, the Colts for substance.

 

[patchick]

One, I will take the word of Rodney Harrison over some unknown board poster like yourself.

FWIW, the one thing that worries me about Welker is that he DID give the Patriots fits -- more than other teams. So it's possible that they overvalued him; it's a classic availability bias.

That being said, most observers are also overvaluing the 2nd-round pick. Remember that the Pats also traded away the picks before and after it, showing an overall disdain for the 2007 draft class.

 

[Remix 6]

na. hes not as fast or quick as Deion

 

[Aqua4Ever04]

Living in Miami I saw a lot of Wes Welker and HE is the one player NO ONE wanted to see go! Miami wouldn't paaaaaaahhht with the $$$ to keep him so wait till he plays against the Fins! On Special Teams he is superb and he will give it everything he has to make a play. New England fans will appreciate his talent. Look for many kids and fans to be wearing Welker jerseys this season... He is a great acquisition. Remember Larry Izzo when he came from the Dolphins... He kinda worked out well?

Well prior to his move to NE, I thought he was expandable. He had no explosion on returns and disapears in the red zone. Yeah he can move the chains and is a good check down, but that's it. He's nothing more than an average player and I'm glad we were able to get our potential anchor at center for the next 10 years for him.

 

[g-fresh]

Agree 100%. Both run good routes, but Deion Branch was fragile and Welker is tough. Deion was faster, but went down immediately at contact (that was a good thing, see fragile above). Welker is slower, but can break tackles and is tougher to tackle.

Which one is better? Neither and both. The whole concept of the discussion is flawed because they are totally different receivers.

BTW, he was #3 and started almost no games to Booker's 16 starts, yet still caught more passes and had nearly as much yardage. Welker was the best overall receiver the Doofins had last year.

They are not that different, while they are obviously not identical they are both smaller guys who rely on their quickness and ability to find holes in coverage. Branch is faster while Welker is a bit more physical and looks for YAC. Didn't Branch play in the slot for the Seahawks this year? I could be totally wrong about that but I think he did. Anyway it seems that the tools that Branch used to be successful here are things that Welker does well. While he will obviously not have the telepathic connection to Brady that Branch did after they played together for a couple seasons I expect Welker to do very well.

I fully expect Welker to be in the 25-27 YPR range on kicks and in the 11-12 YPR range on punts. He may not take it to the house, but he will give the Pats plenty of short fields to work with. And, to me, having a short field when your down by 3 and less than 2 minutes to play is as much of a game changing item as him taking it to the house. Especially with this offense.

I think Hobbs is the main kick return guy this year, but I agree with you on punt returns. With the blocking he'll have here he could be a big addition to special teams.

Hi guys. I registered because I stumped upon this topic and felt the need to post. First off, let me say that I am a Dolphins fan, however I am objective and I have tremendous respect for the Patriots organization and their recent dynasty.

I am VERY knowledgeable when it comes to football, and I watch every snap the Dolphins play every year, as I have for years.

First, its really nice to see a fan of another team come in here and make level headed, thought out posts. That being said, don't you know that everyone who posts on football message boards is an expert who could step in and be a head coach tomorrow if needed?

He is tough... However as a player, he is average at best. He's average as a returner and doesn't possess great speed, he's not a home run threat, so to speak. As a receiver, he racked up catches last year because he ran short underneath routes and that was all Joey Harrington was actually able to connect on. He will never be more than a slot receiver, and can easily be upgraded.

He did pretty well last year with no one at QB and was the teams leading receiver out of the slot. He will be catching balls from Tom Brady and will only be asked to play the slot. Teams will have to choose to either cover Stallworth and Moss on the outside or worry about Welker and Watson on the inside. This is worlds away from his situation on the Dolphins, I don't think its unreasonable to expect him to do very well in his role for us. That's why we are getting excited, Welker doesn't have to be a world beater for us, he has proven to be a very good slot receiver who excels at getting open, he should be a perfect fit in the Pats offense.

I understand that the majority of fans for every team are probably biased, and you want to look on the bright side and see the most optimistic outcome. However, I can tell you with 100% certainty that the Patriots significantly overpaid for Welker, and that trade will prove to help the Dolphins more than it will New England I think. If any of you see Scott Pioli around town, tell him Dolphins fans say thank you for trying to improve our club and shorten the gap between the Dolphins and Patriots.

Who would we have selected in the second who would be more beneficial? I think BB and SP knew they did not like this draft class and decided to go with a proven commodity who they clearly like a lot in Welker. A second round pick in a weak draft means more to a rebuilding team like the Dolphins than it does to the Pats. We got what we wanted, you guys got something you wanted, seems like a win win situation to me.

 

[spacecrime]

Well prior to his move to NE, I thought he was expandable. He had no explosion on returns and disapears in the red zone. Yeah he can move the chains and is a good check down, but that's it. He's nothing more than an average player and I'm glad we were able to get our potential anchor at center for the next 10 years for him.

You are incredible. Center for the next ten years? Is this like Ricky is the running back for the next ten years? Dante is the Qb that will lead you to the SB?

This center has done nothing yet. He may or may not.

Why are you in such denial about Welker? You never said a single bad thing about him until the Pats got him. In fact, here is your first post on Patsfans:

Hey all, I've been on you're guys' site before and I thought I would make a return.

Well anyway, my question is, how do you guys feel about the upcomming '06 season so far? I mean we have much improved and you guys have only gotten worse. How do you guys feel about next season? Do you still think you will own the East or have you realized your reign is over?

Well just trying to get a feel for how Pats fans are reacting to this offseaon, and let's just face it guys, the AFC East, now belongs to the Fins! GO FINS BABY!

Culpepper, Brown, Williams, Chambers, McMichael, Booker, Welker... man you guys should be worried because that is murders row on offense!

Nice to see you so high on Welker. And this was prior to 2006 season, Welker's best!!

 

[DaBruinz]

Well prior to his move to NE, I thought he was expandable. He had no explosion on returns and disapears in the red zone. Yeah he can move the chains and is a good check down, but that's it. He's nothing more than an average player and I'm glad we were able to get our potential anchor at center for the next 10 years for him.

He had no "explosion" on returns because the Miami return blocking (on kick-offs and on punts) was pathetic. Its kind of hard to EXPLODE on a return when the opposing team is down on you as the ball is getting there. Its amazing how you totally ignore the fact that Miami LED THE LEAGUE in fair catches for that reason.

He "disappeared" in the Red Zone because Miami didn't use him there. They took him off the field because they went with their taller receivers in Chambers, Booker, McMichael, Etc in the red zone. The way MOST teams go unless they don't have a lot of TALL receivers. Heck, even the Pats would go with a 3 TE set that included Vrabel at times because they needed taller bodies down there. It doesn't mean that Troy Brown was bad in that area. Just they wanted the HEIGHT.

 

[Aqua4Ever04]

You are incredible. Center for the next ten years? Is this like Ricky is the running back for the next ten years? Dante is the Qb that will lead you to the SB?

This center has done nothing yet. He may or may not.

Why are you in such denial about Welker? You never said a single bad thing about him until the Pats got him. In fact, here is your first post on Patsfans:

Nice to see you so high on Welker. And this was prior to 2006 season, Welker's best!!

Yeah, Satele is a good player and could be a very good lineman, big deal that I think that. He has nothing to do with Ricky, again, stay on topic.

I'm not in denial, Welker is a good player, but you guys think he's amazing but he's just an average maybe slightly above average player.

You bring up that thread but look at the responses. I recall some mentioning that me bringing up Welker is hilarious.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

He has similarities and will be a KR threat.
We're in for apleasant suprise.
He'll do well at his role and surely fit w/ TB

 

[DaBruinz]

Yeah, Satele is a good player and could be a very good lineman, big deal that I think that. He has nothing to do with Ricky, again, stay on topic.

I'm not in denial, Welker is a good player, but you guys think he's amazing but he's just an average maybe slightly above average player.

You bring up that thread but look at the responses. I recall some mentioning that me bringing up Welker is hilarious.

In one breath, you say hes a good player and in the same breath you say he's average. Talk about a blockhead.:bricks:


Aqua, you should just not comment at times.

 

[Remix 6]

Yeah, Satele is a good player and could be a very good lineman, big deal that I think that. He has nothing to do with Ricky, again, stay on topic.

I'm not in denial, Welker is a good player, but you guys think he's amazing but he's just an average maybe slightly above average player.

You bring up that thread but look at the responses. I recall some mentioning that me bringing up Welker is hilarious.

i agree..hes not that good. Nothing stands out about him really besides good hands.
Size? Below Average
Speed: Average..not very fast
Agility? Average..he cant dance
Vision: Slightly above average..he gets open and find room
Hands? Above average

hes not a very good KR or PR..just get over it. i dont care about blocking. Unless we block perfectly 11men and maintaing..he aint breaking 1

As a WR..hes a slot guy..not much speed..not a lot of quicks..small kid

 

[DaBruinz]

i agree..hes not that good. Nothing stands out about him really besides good hands.
Size? Below Average
Speed: Average..not very fast
Agility? Average..he cant dance
Vision: Slightly above average..he gets open and find room
Hands? Above average

hes not a very good KR or PR..just get over it. i dont care about blocking. Unless we block perfectly 11men and maintaing..he aint breaking 1

As a WR..hes a slot guy..not much speed..not a lot of quicks..small kid

He has average agility? Damn that is so far off its amazing. How the hell do you explain the 4.6 YAC he averaged last season? LUCK? Give me a break. Welker is extremely quick and very good on punt returns and kick returns when he actually has some blocking. Something he hasn't had in Miami.

Your BS claims regarding his kick return and punt return abilities show you to not have a clue on this subject. The Phins blocking schemes on special teams were atrocious. But just ignore that why don't you. Shows how truly smart you are.

As for Welker's size, how do you figure its below average? He's 5'9 and 195 lbs. BTW, Welker ran a 4.65 40 at his Pro-Day and a 4.01 in the 20 yard shuttle. So, while Welker isn't Hobbs fast, he's actually slightly quicker than Hobbs who ran a 4.08 in the 20 yard shuttle.

 

[Remix 6]

He has average agility? Damn that is so far off its amazing. How the hell do you explain the 4.6 YAC he averaged last season? LUCK? Give me a break. Welker is extremely quick and very good on punt returns and kick returns when he actually has some blocking. Something he hasn't had in Miami.

Your BS claims regarding his kick return and punt return abilities show you to not have a clue on this subject. The Phins blocking schemes on special teams were atrocious. But just ignore that why don't you. Shows how truly smart you are.

As for Welker's size, how do you figure its below average? He's 5'9 and 195 lbs. BTW, Welker ran a 4.65 40 at his Pro-Day and a 4.01 in the 20 yard shuttle. So, while Welker isn't Hobbs fast, he's actually slightly quicker than Hobbs who ran a 4.08 in the 20 yard shuttle.

hes very quick? Hes like Dante Hall? I've never seen Welker juke much really. 4.6..did u watch his games? I didnt but it can be from being open and running free. It can be from a lot of factors. Like i said..anyone can really return with some vision and great blocking

look at his 3 cone: 7.10..compare that to Given's 6.82. a 30 inch verticle isnt very good. 3 cone is a very good tool for quickness/agility

5"9 is undersized. am i wrong? Why was Branch considered undersized? Why are Steve Smith and others undersized if they are under 5"10?

but whatever..you overrate our players . u think Cassell is worth a 1st or 2nd. even a 3rd is something to laugh @

 

[DaBruinz]

hes very quick? Hes like Dante Hall? I've never seen Welker juke much really. 4.6..did u watch his games? I didnt but it can be from being open and running free. It can be from a lot of factors. Like i said..anyone can really return with some vision and great blocking

look at his 3 cone: 7.10..compare that to Given's 6.82. a 30 inch verticle isnt very good. 3 cone is a very good tool for quickness/agility

5"9 is undersized. am i wrong? Why was Branch considered undersized? Why are Steve Smith and others undersized if they are under 5"10?

but whatever..you overrate our players . u think Cassell is worth a 1st or 2nd. even a 3rd is something to laugh @

Let's see. I over-rate players because I feel that Cassel is as good as Schaub and feel the Pats might be able to get a 1st or 2nd round pick? I over-rate players because I look at all the factors that go into kick returns and punt returns, particularly facts you choose to ignore?

Yes, I have watched Welker play. Numerous times. Its why I wanted him for the Pats and started talking about him long before the season ended and before free agency started.

Agility is the lateral movement. Welker is very good at stopping and changing directions. While a 30" vertical isn't great, we're not talking his vertical. We're talking about a guy who was getting 4.6 YAC on average after each pass. In an offense where they averaged just over 6 yards per attempt.

5'9 and 195 lbs is undersized if you look at it just from his height. It may not be tall, but he's built. And that helps him go over the middle.

OH, one last thing. I don't know if ANYONE is Dante Hall quick. Hall ran a 3.86 20 yard shuttle and a 6.82 3 cone.