We're leading in the division

[Deus Irae]

I know, I'm just giving you trouble. It's all good.

I hear you. It's just so difficult to respond without it getting even more political. I think I edited that post 3-4 times, just for one sentence.

 

[Zeus]

A full quarter of the regular season remains. The team has been competitive in 11 of 12 games and lost four close ones. The record is disappointing, but, in reality, the team is not that far off.

Belichick's teams have usually improved as the season has gone on (the good ones, anyway). That's the challenge for ths team - to improve enough to start winning the close ones.

It's pointless to continue to bemoan the departures of Seymour, Hobbs, Vrabel etc. and to endlessly second guess the 2009 draft. There have been defensive shortcomings over the past several seasons. Belichick decided that the defense was in need of a serious overhaul. We're in the early stages of that process.

There a plenty of examples of teams that struggled during the regular season but caught fire in December and January. The question is - does this team have the talent, depth, leadership, focus and determination to improve over the coming weeks?

For those who take delight in the demise of the 2009 New England Patriots, you might be right - or your celebration could be premature. Time will tell. But I'd imagine that there are a number of teams that don't exactly relish the prospect of facing New England in the playoffs (the Colts being Exhibit A).

I had hoped for better, but there's still plenty of football to be played (and for that, I am grateful). For now, it's time to focus on taking care of business in the AFC East. Once you make the tournament, there's always a chance ...

 

[everlong]

I would have kept Vrabel as a backup even if his greatest value was veteran leadership for the locker room.

From the get go I didn't like throwing in Vrabel was part of the Cassel deal but they really could have used him this year as a stabilizing force. I think Seau being on the roster so early in the season proves that Bill saw the gap.

 

[IcyPatriot]

I guessed we would be 10-6 this year ... hopefully I am wrong and we are 11-5.

 

[Wide_Receiver]

Now barely leading a division against three teams with first-year QBs is a great thing. My how our once lofty expectations plummeted.

Can't wait to sport that 2009 AFC East Champs shirt and hat around town.

Being a fan is much more fun when your expectations are a little lower. For instance, I understand how you guys would laugh at a division champion t-shirt. But as a Dolphins fan, I wore my 2008 champs shirt around and was damn proud of it.

It's funny how the success of teams makes fans react to success much differently.

 

[patsfan-1982]

1.) There's no excuse for Belichick making this a REBUILDING YEAR. He chose to jettison players that could still have been big helps to the team, even though he was losing other players to age and retirement. Had he kept Hobbs and Seymour, for example, the team's run defense, pass defense and return game would all be better.

2.) The reason that the team is in first place isn't because it's a great team. The team is in first place because the other teams in the division are bad teams. If the Patriots were in any other division in the AFC, they'd be in a dogfight for second place.

3.) Having high expectations is a natural function of having a good team for an extended period of time. It raises the bar. Just ask college coaches about that, or coaches on pretty much any level of sport, for that matter.

i agree the seymour trade IMO was the worst move that BB has ever made and tradeing hobbs a top 5 kick returner in the NFL for just a 5th round pick was pretty bad as will

 

[stcjones]

Cassel's 11 wins aren't the same as this team winning 11 or even 10 games. We played the AFC and NFC west last year which was 7 wins right there and Cassel (major assist Billy Yates) was the reason we got smoked vs SD and didn't win the 8th. He left a lot of points on the board when that game was still close by not hitting open receivers.

This is a tougher schedule.

That said I'll feel a lot better once we beat Carolina. Seriously if we cannot be a warm weather team with a QB starting his second game in December at home in what is expected to be cold and snowy conditions then they don't deserve to be a playoff team. Couple that with a Fins loss to Jax and things will seem a lot better.

last year....much easier schedule.........and Brady will not be back to 100% until next year at least......look at palmer....took a few seasons

 

[mgteich]

I have agreed with you a lot, but I have disagreed with you more when you think that Kraft shouldn't build teams to win the division.
==============================================
The goal is always first to be about winning the division and getting into the second season. The goal is to be able to repeat this for many years in a row. That is how Super Bowls are won. Kraft's approach will never be boom or bust. He's learned well from Parcells, Pioli, Belichick and even from his son Jonathan.

If the approach of Kraft isn't good enough for you, I suggest that you find another team. There are plenty of folks that will follow this team and sell out the stadium. This team has not been out of at least a tie for the playoffs since Belichick's first full season in 2001.

This is as good as it gets. We will always be able to look back and explain how one decision or another would have brought us the Super Bowl. That's what we have done in every year since 2004. No team has every done better in a decade that the current colts and patriots. There were better franchises over a longer time like San Francisco. But there haven't been many.
=============================

As you know, I do agree that in this season there were obvious personnel decisions that could have been improved on. However, in the end, we still may win. And the important thing is not whether we could have won a couple of more regular season games. The primary factor there was Brady's health. Had Brady been 100% coming into the year, we easily would have won a couple of more games. Had we punted against Indy, we might be 8-4 still ahving the same discussion WITH THE SAME PLAYERS having the same performance.

Belichick has failed this eyar (if he has) because he believed that he and Pees could do the almost impossible. Belichick believed that he could win even after losing almost the entire core of the defense, much of this voluntarily to serve the future. He compounded this misperception by drafting for the future as if we had no current positions that needed immediate help.

BOTTOM LINE
1) This is one of the best franchises in the history of the NFL.
2) Getting rid of Seymour, Hobbs, and Vrabel might have worked out much better if Belichick drafted at least a couple of players that would have been key contributers this year. My choices were Matthews, Laurinitis and WR Wallace.
3) I do believe that the defensive free agent help was an excellent job by Belichick. There are linited resources. He filled key holes at CB, S and passrusher with Bodden/Springs, McGowan, Burgess/BantaCain met three holes fairly well. Unfortunately, there were a couple of more that needed to be filled in the draft. A healthy Crable or Mckenzie might have helped a bit.

In the end, this may be a great draft judged after the 2011 season. Unfortunately there was no balance, no immediate help for 2009.

If winning the division is what the Patriots are about, it's time for Kraft to sell the team and for the people in place to be summarily dismissed.

 

[Ring 6]

1.) There's no excuse for Belichick making this a REBUILDING YEAR. He chose to jettison players that could still have been big helps to the team, even though he was losing other players to age and retirement. Had he kept Hobbs and Seymour, for example, the team's run defense, pass defense and return game would all be better.

2.) The reason that the team is in first place isn't because it's a great team. The team is in first place because the other teams in the division are bad teams. If the Patriots were in any other division in the AFC, they'd be in a dogfight for second place.

3.) Having high expectations is a natural function of having a good team for an extended period of time. It raises the bar. Just ask college coaches about that, or coaches on pretty much any level of sport, for that matter.

Trading Seymour is a reasonable criticism. Trading Hobbs, IMO, is not, because the players we have at corner are better than him.

 

[Ring 6]

BB really screwed the pooch on this one. That can't be emphasized enough.

No young LBs to take over. Just hires high priced FAs or guys like Beisel.

Then drafts Brace and doesn't let him play.

Then has this weird defense where we play so soft on all their WRs that we just give them the 10 yard out every single time. No pass rush whatsoever...instead it's "read and react", yeah, they're reading and reacting as the QBs are eviscerating them. Annihilating them. We need a re-vamping of the defense. Maybe the game has passed BB by.

These are the salad days for Brady, although he too deserves his share of blame.

Leading the division? To what end? To be embarassed and lose in the first round? No thanks, that's nothing to be proud of.

Mayo. Guyton, Crable, McKenzie are young LBs.
Brace has to earn getting on the field, you seem to be saying you put him on the field becuase you drafted him whether he earns it or not.
The 10 yard out every play is a ridiculous comment, however you are saying there is no pass rush, and then saying its wrong to play loose coverage. Do you have a clue.
The rest after that is just indignant whining.

 

[Ring 6]

If winning the division is what the Patriots are about, it's time for Kraft to sell the team and for the people in place to be summarily dismissed.



Most people wanted Cassel gone last season. "Most people" don't win Lombardis. There were those of us talking about the offseason mistakes that Belichick was making, even before the Seymour trade, even though we had some disagreement as to the severity of the individual issues. If we could see it, Belichick & company should have been able to.



Belichick's personnel decisions haven't been nearly as awesome for this season as you seem to believe, as the Seymour/Hobbs examples show. Little positives have been swamped by major negatives.



A better defense and return game would have taken the pressure off of the offense. That's especially true come playoff time.





The 2009 Patriots, even without those better personnel decisions, could (should?) have beaten the 2009 Colts, on the road. That's precisely the sort of thing that makes those poor decisions so noteworthy.

Winnig the division is a means to an end. Unless you know the result of the playoff games we WILL be playing in, then the story is not written.

Its easy to criticize personel decisions by anyone. None are perfect, especially in hindsight.
You just stated that the decisions were so poor we lost in the last second to an undefeated team on the road. Where is the bar?

 

[mgteich]

Yes, I agree that Hobbs was not going to start at corner. That doesn't mean that he wasn't worth anything to the 2009 defense and special teams. How much would he worth as a kick returner and dime back, and even as a nickel at times?

Again the issue was balance between the future and the present. Belichick unloaded Seymour, Vrabel and Hobbs. Vrabel and Hobbs had plenty of value to the 2009 patriots even if they didn't start.

Maybe Orhnberger will be an allpro nect year at RG or not. It seems that a top OG could have come out of the 2010 draft and will still have to.

Trading Seymour is a reasonable criticism. Trading Hobbs, IMO, is not, because the players we have at corner are better than him.

 

[Ring 6]

We are 3 plays away from being 10-2 (losses by 3,1 and 1) and seriously we had a half dozen plays that could have been the 1 needed in each of those 3. We really couldnt have lost by a slimmer margin. And we would be 1 game out of home field advantage thoughout the playoffs.
THREE PLAYS. And those 3 plays add up to deciding that BB after winning 3 SBs doesnt know what he is doing, the team is a mess, we are rebuilding, and will clean house next year.
Ridiculous.
There are 4 games left to hopefully improve seeding.
Realistically, we will have a home playoff game in round 1.
Then we will go to Indy to have a rematch of a game we deserved to win. Is this team incapable of winning that game? Did they not come as close to winning as possible the first time?
Then we either go to SD, or if SD does what they normally do, we probably get a home game. (Reverse the order if we are a 3 or 4 seed)
I do not fear the chances of a team that would be 10-2 if it made 3 more plays to win those games.

We a slim margin from 10-2, are 7-5 and the fan base talks like we are 3-9.

 

[Deus Irae]

I have agreed with you a lot, but I have disagreed with you more when you think that Kraft shouldn't build teams to win the division.
==============================================
The goal is always first to be about winning the division and getting into the second season. The goal is to be able to repeat this for many years in a row. That is how Super Bowls are won. Kraft's approach will never be boom or bust. He's learned well from Parcells, Pioli, Belichick and even from his son Jonathan.

The goal needs to be the winning of the Super Bowl while maintaining excellence for the future as best you can. If you're a team with elite talent and you settle for anything less, you need to leave the game. Super Bowls aren't won by winning divisions. Super Bowls are won by fielding teams that have enough talent to go on a great run come playoff time. Goal and plan are not identical.

If the approach of Kraft isn't good enough for you, I suggest that you find another team. There are plenty of folks that will follow this team and sell out the stadium. This team has not been out of at least a tie for the playoffs since Belichick's first full season in 2001.

The notion that fans of a team that's 2 seasons removed from 16-0 should buy into some "win the division" crap when it's still got elite talent and had more before the front office went on a crack binge and gave it away is just absurd. The notion that such an approach should be exempt from questions from the fan base and that fans who have the temerity to question such an approach should switch to other teams is even more absurd.

This is as good as it gets. We will always be able to look back and explain how one decision or another would have brought us the Super Bowl. That's what we have done in every year since 2004. No team has every done better in a decade that the current colts and patriots. There were better franchises over a longer time like San Francisco. But there haven't been many.

The Steelers of the 70s did better than the Patriots of the 00's. Then, depending on how you're framing your "decade", one could add other teams (SF, for example), as well. However, there's a point underlying your claim which goes to exactly why this "division" nonsense is unacceptable: everlasting greatness has never been accomplished, and the game is designed to prevent it now more than ever. That's why the best teams can't just look at the division. When you've got only a limited time to cash in on greatness (which is generally based on your QBs level of play), pissing away opportunities because you think you can win your division even if you weaken your team by getting rid of your best defensive player is nothing more than a recipe for failure.

As you know, I do agree that in this season there were obvious personnel decisions that could have been improved on. However, in the end, we still may win. And the important thing is not whether we could have won a couple of more regular season games. The primary factor there was Brady's health. Had Brady been 100% coming into the year, we easily would have won a couple of more games. Had we punted against Indy, we might be 8-4 still ahving the same discussion WITH THE SAME PLAYERS having the same performance.

1.) We knew Brady wouldn't be 100% for at least some portion of the season, and we didn't know how much of the season that would be, so that's a cop out. Frankly, that uncertainty is part of the reason that the Seymour trade was a bad one.

2.) More regular season wins = a better chance at HFA and a bye. The notion that such things aren't important is something I simply don't accept.

3.) But they didn't punt against Indy, and the personnel of the offense and defense played a part in the decision to go for it. Belichick himself made reference to this, albeit by framing it as faith in the offense rather than a lack thereof when it comes to the defense.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, I agree that Hobbs was not going to start at corner. That doesn't mean that he wasn't worth anything to the 2009 defense and special teams. How much would he worth as a kick returner and dime back, and even as a nickel at times?

Again the issue was balance between the future and the present. Belichick unloaded Seymour, Vrabel and Hobbs. Vrabel and Hobbs had plenty of value to the 2009 patriots even if they didn't start.

Maybe Orhnberger will be an allpro nect year at RG or not. It seems that a top OG could have come out of the 2010 draft and will still have to.

Hindsight is 20/20 and all 53 roster spots must be considered together.
Vrabel wasnt traded because he couldn't contribute, he was traded because we couldn't afford him on the cap.
I think Hobbs went both because we had acquired enough corners that he was questionable to even make the squad (it would be crazy to cut 2nd year 2nd rounder Wheatly to keep Hobbs as the 5th corner) but also because he simply wasn't getting any better.
I don't know how we have to expect Orhnberger to be an all-pro as a 4th rounder. If you are comparing him to Hobbs, if he makes the roster next year I think we ended up better off.

 

[Deus Irae]

Belichick has failed this eyar (if he has) because he believed that he and Pees could do the almost impossible. Belichick believed that he could win even after losing almost the entire core of the defense, much of this voluntarily to serve the future. He compounded this misperception by drafting for the future as if we had no current positions that needed immediate help.

I agree that this, among other reasons, is an explanation for the team's struggles to date.

1) This is one of the best franchises in the history of the NFL.

True

2) Getting rid of Seymour, Hobbs, and Vrabel might have worked out much better if Belichick drafted at least a couple of players that would have been key contributers this year. My choices were Matthews, Laurinitis and WR Wallace.

It would have been folly to expect great returns from rookie OLBs regarding pass rush when the D-line was weakened in the manner it was. None of the players you list above would likely have helped all that much, if any, with the team this year, had the alternatives worked out.

3) I do believe that the defensive free agent help was an excellent job by Belichick. There are linited resources. He filled key holes at CB, S and passrusher with Bodden/Springs, McGowan, Burgess/BantaCain met three holes fairly well. Unfortunately, there were a couple of more that needed to be filled in the draft. A healthy Crable or Mckenzie might have helped a bit.

1.) Springs was the most expensive defensive free agent, as I recall. That's gone bust.
2.) Burgess wasn't a free agent.
3.) Most of the defensive improvement on this team has come from depth at CB, experience with Meriweather and Guyton, and an absolute find in McGowan. McGowan has really been the only great FA signing. Bodden's been nothing more than Hobbs was: he just has better help. Banta Cain has been fairly effective against the pass, but weaker than his predecessor against the run. It's really been just the one signing (McGowan) that can be pointed to with beaming pride.

In the end, this may be a great draft judged after the 2011 season. Unfortunately there was no balance, no immediate help for 2009.

The draft picks that were actually taken look pretty darned good. Also, the team was able to move some picks forward so that next season should offer another great opportunity, and may do so with an extremely deep draft, depending upon lower classmen participation levels. Additionally, the Patriots were by no means the only 3-4 team to pass on the available linebackers, so I don't really hold that as much of an issue.

Unfortunately, Belichick screwed the pooch in far too many other areas, and that's been the problem.

 

[Deus Irae]

Winnig the division is a means to an end. Unless you know the result of the playoff games we WILL be playing in, then the story is not written.

Then you should tell Ian to close down the message board until the final game of the Patriots' season.

Its easy to criticize personel decisions by anyone. None are perfect, especially in hindsight.
You just stated that the decisions were so poor we lost in the last second to an undefeated team on the road. Where is the bar?

I'm getting tired of this "hindsight" argument, because it's ridiculous. Many people opposed the decisions at the moment they learned of them. Feel free to go back and use the search function.

You know this, because you were among those riding my ass about some of my gripes during the offseason.

 

[Ring 6]

By the way I think the point of this thread was NOT we are in first place, everything is wonderful
but WAS we are in first place why is there doom and gloom.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

We are 3 plays away from being 10-2 (losses by 3,1 and 1) and seriously we had a half dozen plays that could have been the 1 needed in each of those 3. We really couldnt have lost by a slimmer margin. And we would be 1 game out of home field advantage thoughout the playoffs.
THREE PLAYS. And those 3 plays add up to deciding that BB after winning 3 SBs doesnt know what he is doing, the team is a mess, we are rebuilding, and will clean house next year.
Ridiculous.
There are 4 games left to hopefully improve seeding.
Realistically, we will have a home playoff game in round 1.
Then we will go to Indy to have a rematch of a game we deserved to win. Is this team incapable of winning that game? Did they not come as close to winning as possible the first time?
Then we either go to SD, or if SD does what they normally do, we probably get a home game. (Reverse the order if we are a 3 or 4 seed)
I do not fear the chances of a team that would be 10-2 if it made 3 more plays to win those games.

We a slim margin from 10-2, are 7-5 and the fan base talks like we are 3-9.

the pats are also 2 plays away from being 5-7..........unless you don't wish to include the bills game and the ravens game in your fantasy

 

[Ring 6]

Then you should tell Ian to close down the message board until the final game of the Patriots' season.



I'm getting tired of this "hindsight" argument, because it's ridiculous. Many people opposed the decisions at the moment they learned of them. Feel free to go back and use the search function.

You know this, because you were among those riding my ass about some of my gripes during the offseason.

But that is exactly the point. I was 'riding your ass' because you were right or wrong, but because you were proclaiming you knew the consequence, just as now, you are damning the season before it plays out.
You are right or wrong in retrospect. You cannot be right or wrong before the results are known even though you want to believe you can convince everyone of that.
If 3 plays went our way, we are 9-2 and rooting for 1 Colt loss to get HFA.
If we get 1 play better we run the table all the way to the SB and your personell gripes are ridiculous.
Its easy to find fault in anything. I still don't understand how people such as you think being able to find fault makes them intelligent in an arena where there is fault 100% of the time.