we just had a super draft again

[Snake Eyes]

The Patriots don't draft for needs. They draft for value, for better or for worse.

Anyone with 1/10th of a brain considers "need" as a strong factor within "value", spending all your money on butter, even if you get a great discount, if having an inadequate supply of guns means your country gets owned.

 

[PATSNUTme]

It's funny the draft class is considered weak now that it's picked over. This board has been salivating over a strong DE/LB class for months.

Solder is a safe pick. Not an exciting pick, but shores up offensive consistency.

The 28 pick trade is the most exciting move in the draft. Fantastic if it's usable.

Dowling, Vereen, and Ridley are typical high risk high reward Pats picks we see every year. These will be our Deion Branch's and our Bethel Johnsons.

And then there's Ryan Mallet. Makin noise and headlines without a lot of promise to contribute. Too much quality to pass up, and really represents how the Patriots draft:

The Patriots don't draft for needs. They draft for value, for better or for worse.

If I hear the word "value" when it comes to selecting players one more time, I'm going to bang my head into the wall. I know that BB uses it all the time and it drives me crazy.

When you draft, you draft the best players to fit your system and needs. You don't draft "values". "Values" do not play the games.

OK, you trade to get better drafting position in the future, I guess you can call that value for the pick. I'm not questioning the players that BB selected, he knows far more about it than I do. But when I hear him say "we got a good value", I feel like turning off the TV and/or radio.

 

[reflexblue]

TOO Much of anything is bad.

 

[alvinnf]

If I hear the word "value" when it comes to selecting players one more time, I'm going to bang my head into the wall. I know that BB uses it all the time and it drives me crazy.

When you draft, you draft the best players to fit your system and needs. You don't draft "values". "Values" do not play the games.

OK, you trade to get better drafting position in the future, I guess you can call that value for the pick. I'm not questioning the players that BB selected, he knows far more about it than I do. But when I hear him say "we got a good value", I feel like turning off the TV and/or radio.

Value is a term used by draft pundits to make their own pontifications appear valid. Smoke and mirrors for the Kipers and the draft gurus of the world. Sticking to what you believe and allowing the hype surrounding the draft process, to only drive prices up around you. Only means you are willing to play by your own rules and let the system work for you.

 

[MaineMan]

Well, given that there may have been very few off-season training opportunities heading into the 2011 season, we came away with two RBs (the position most likely to be able to make immediate contributions, regardless), a CB/safety who if he's half the "hit" that McCourty was, should make some positive contributions early, and an OT who would've need more than one off-season of coaching to make significant contributions anyway. And pretty much any QB drafted in any round in any draft would be expected to be carrying the clipboard for as long as Brady remains upright.

On Day Three, we picked up a developmental OG prospect (in the usual spot), a potential Crumpler successor (from Crumpler to groom while we still have him) and a couple special teamers at the very end (again, the usual spot for such guys).

And, we probably won't have to cut anyone who wasn't leaving anyway to fit these guys on the roster (while other teams will likely have to let go of a bunch of guys, a few of whom may be of some use to us).

If there's no football in 2011 (or a shortened season) we didn't lose much at all with these picks and we're set up to "win the draft" again in 2012. If there IS a 2011 season (but with limited off-season training), we'll probably have less trouble incorporating our picks than a lot of other teams will with theirs.

It wasn't my "dream draft" by any stretch, but, given the circumstances, I think BB probably did the best thing for the team for 2011.

 

[DW Toys]

Everyone is drinking the kool-aid which I guess is better then jumping off your local bridge

I agree with your thoughts. I guess I am a hater. I also thought this was a weak Draft. What got to me at the end was BB must have left for the afternoon because the last two choices could not have been possibly on anybody's board rated higher than many else. It was dart board time at the Razor. I;ll give you 25-30 better. He called it a day after Cannon (Decent pick. I had him way early before the medical. God Bless to him).
Who wants to hold book on the over and under on what BB trades for the two picks he got for 2012?
A rate this as a C- because the two picks we got will be re-traded next year.
Try figuring out the roster now. Some issues as the a traffic jam at some positions. He Drafted Dowling as a Safety IMO so you have a jam there. TE unless Hernandez is now officially a WR. RB, How to you tell Faulk he is a cut?
DW Toys

 

[patchick]

How to you tell Faulk he is a cut?

Why would you tell a free agent that?

Personally, I don't see a problem in saying "Kevin, we'd love to honor you with a special halftime retirement ceremony." As painful as it is to say goodbye to him as a Patriot, his long-term health is the main thing now. I don't want to see a 36-year-old coming off a serious knee injury play running back in the NFL.

 

[mgteich]

Frankly, I don't see the logjam you do. Of course, we still have free agency and trades available to make upgrades. We also need camp competition and players from free agency in case there are injuries in camp. But for now, we have a good, solid start.

25 OFFENSE
3 QB (Brady, Hoyer, Mallett)
4 RB (Green-Ellis, Woodhead, Vareen, Ridley
4 TE (Grankowski, Hernandez, Crumpler, Smith)
5 WR (Branch, Welker, Edelman, Tate, Price)
9 OL (Solder, Mankins, Koppen, Connolly, Vollmer, Kaczur/LeVoir, Maneri, Ohrnberger, Wendell)
PUP Cannon (or on the 53 to replace Ohrnberger if he is ready)

I agree with your thoughts. I guess I am a hater. I also thought this was a weak Draft. What got to me at the end was BB must have left for the afternoon because the last two choices could not have been possibly on anybody's board rated higher than many else. It was dart board time at the Razor. I;ll give you 25-30 better. He called it a day after Cannon (Decent pick. I had him way early before the medical. God Bless to him).
Who wants to hold book on the over and under on what BB trades for the two picks he got for 2012?
A rate this as a C- because the two picks we got will be re-traded next year.
Try figuring out the roster now. Some issues as the a traffic jam at some positions. He Drafted Dowling as a Safety IMO so you have a jam there. TE unless Hernandez is now officially a WR. RB, How to you tell Faulk he is a cut?
DW Toys

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Why would you tell a free agent that?

Personally, I don't see a problem in saying "Kevin, we'd love to honor you with a special halftime retirement ceremony." As painful as it is to say goodbye to him as a Patriot, his long-term health is the main thing now. I don't want to see a 36-year-old coming off a serious knee injury play running back in the NFL.

They probably will do what they did with Bruschi

Ask him to announce his retirement because it would look bad cutting such a great devoted long term player

 

[mgteich]

You cannot cut a free agent.

They probably will do what they did with Bruschi

Ask him to announce his retirement because it would look bad cutting such a great devoted long term player

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

You cannot cut a free agent.

Release,not re-sign,cut.....whatever

It's still the end of the line

 

[mgteich]

No, I'm not playing with words. We have no more rights to Faulk than any other team. He is an unrestricted free agent, free to sign a contract with whoever he wants.

I suppose that we could sign a contract with Faulk with the understanding that he retire (otherwise we would have to cut him later). We've done that before. The only cost would be the signing bonus.

Release,not re-sign,cut.....whatever

It's still the end of the line

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

No, I'm not playing with words. We have no more rights to Faulk than any other team. He is an unrestricted free agent, free to sign a contract with whoever he wants.

I suppose that we could sign a contract with Faulk with the understanding that he retire (otherwise we would have to cut him later). We've done that before. The only cost would be the signing bonus.

I believe Faulk is of the Bruschi kind that he will retire as a Patriot and will never wear another NFL jersey,he is that type of player IMO,if that means the Pats have no room for him then I think he calls it quits,he could re-sign temporarily for a retirement scenario if he wants to go that route.

Brady on the other hand IMO will not retire as a Pat,I think by his late 30s and near the end of his current contract,he will head off elsewhere as the Pats go different ways,especially if Belichick has left.

 

[MaineMan]

Frankly, I don't see the logjam you do. Of course, we still have free agency and trades available to make upgrades. We also need camp competition and players from free agency in case there are injuries in camp. But for now, we have a good, solid start.

25 OFFENSE
3 QB (Brady, Hoyer, Mallett)
4 RB (Green-Ellis, Woodhead, Vareen, Ridley
4 TE (Grankowski, Hernandez, Crumpler, Smith)
5 WR (Branch, Welker, Edelman, Tate, Price)
9 OL (Solder, Mankins, Koppen, Connolly, Vollmer, Kaczur/LeVoir, Maneri, Ohrnberger, Wendell)
PUP Cannon (or on the 53 to replace Ohrnberger if he is ready)

Minor nitpick:

Add Thomas Austin OG to the OL list.

 

[mgteich]

There are lots of players not included. I just don't think Austin has any chance of making a 53 man roster.

Minor nitpick:

Add Thomas Austin OG to the OL list.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

There are lots of players not included. I just don't think Austin has any chance of making a 53 man roster.

Or maybe BB follows through and releases Kazcur.Then all Austin has to do is beat out Orhsberger to make the roster.

 

[SunnyDenmark]

Well, given that there may have been very few off-season training opportunities heading into the 2011 season, we came away with two RBs (the position most likely to be able to make immediate contributions, regardless), a CB/safety who if he's half the "hit" that McCourty was, should make some positive contributions early, and an OT who would've need more than one off-season of coaching to make significant contributions anyway. And pretty much any QB drafted in any round in any draft would be expected to be carrying the clipboard for as long as Brady remains upright.

On Day Three, we picked up a developmental OG prospect (in the usual spot), a potential Crumpler successor (from Crumpler to groom while we still have him) and a couple special teamers at the very end (again, the usual spot for such guys).

And, we probably won't have to cut anyone who wasn't leaving anyway to fit these guys on the roster (while other teams will likely have to let go of a bunch of guys, a few of whom may be of some use to us).

If there's no football in 2011 (or a shortened season) we didn't lose much at all with these picks and we're set up to "win the draft" again in 2012. If there IS a 2011 season (but with limited off-season training), we'll probably have less trouble incorporating our picks than a lot of other teams will with theirs.

It wasn't my "dream draft" by any stretch, but, given the circumstances, I think BB probably did the best thing for the team for 2011.

Some very good points above that people should re-read!

Almost all of the picks should make the team (except rounds 6 & 7 which is usually the case on a loaded team). And as stated -without displacing current members as these rookies fill current FA holes (Light, Morris/Taylor/Faulk) and take Crumplers place this year or next.

Mallet is just good insurance - this should probably go on another thread but Mallet allows chance for -over next few years: a) mop up duty when ahead by 20+ points WHILE developing / showcasing his talents as future trade bait b) 1-2 game (most pro ready rookie QB) emergency option if Brady has minor injury c) replacement as #2 backup if Hoyer not re-signed or traded as is a FA in 2012.

"It wasn't my "dream draft" by any stretch, but, given the circumstances, I think BB probably did the best thing for the team for 2011

That sums it up perfectly in my mind. Best thing for the team in 2011 was filling the FA holes with high picks (Vereen, Solder, Bradley).

BB lost the battle but won the war. In some battles -it is better to make a planned retreat that to press on. So he traded for 2 high picks in 2012. Want proof he retreated from this battle? He traded completely out of the 4th round and a late 3rd round pick for next years 2nd FAR IN ADVANCE of when the players came off the board. BB used the 'V' word in assessing the upcoming players in the later 3rd and 4th rounds. REALLY - how can you know that far in advance? (when the trade was consumated). What if someone fell (like Hernandez or Mallet). BB completely wanted out of this draft and little/no offseason OTA's situation. Want more proof? BB switched one spot behind with Eagles in 6th (for no compensation)- also well in advance- when Eagles also had OLB needs. Bill also leaked out to Lombardi that they were going to take Mallet - hoping to draw trade interest (and waited till 2nd consecutive pick #74 to give possible trade more time to happen).

BB saw the limited OTA's and / or draft class as not especially deep - as a reason to 'bail' and not just keep making developmental selections that end up on some other teams roster / practice squad (due to NEP deep roster). He took the safe picks, traded away as much as possible into next year and then just bailed out on the final 2 picks. Threw Bill O'Brien a bone in the 7th -a ST pick (instead of IMHO taking a risky but good medical flyer on Greg Romerus).

So in summary dear commrades - he retreated from battle - taking the safe early pickins. minimal losses, minimal risks, and won the long term draft war by getting two high picks next draft.

 

[DW Toys]

Some very good points above that people should re-read!

Almost all of the picks should make the team (except rounds 6 & 7 which is usually the case on a loaded team). And as stated -without displacing current members as these rookies fill current FA holes (Light, Morris/Taylor/Faulk) and take Crumplers place this year or next.

Mallet is just good insurance - this should probably go on another thread but Mallet allows chance for -over next few years: a) mop up duty when ahead by 20+ points WHILE developing / showcasing his talents as future trade bait b) 1-2 game (most pro ready rookie QB) emergency option if Brady has minor injury c) replacement as #2 backup if Hoyer not re-signed or traded as is a FA in 2012.

"It wasn't my "dream draft" by any stretch, but, given the circumstances, I think BB probably did the best thing for the team for 2011

That sums it up perfectly in my mind. Best thing for the team in 2011 was filling the FA holes with high picks (Vereen, Solder, Bradley).

BB lost the battle but won the war. In some battles -it is better to make a planned retreat that to press on. So he traded for 2 high picks in 2012. Want proof he retreated from this battle? He traded completely out of the 4th round and a late 3rd round pick for next years 2nd FAR IN ADVANCE of when the players came off the board. BB used the 'V' word in assessing the upcoming players in the later 3rd and 4th rounds. REALLY - how can you know that far in advance? (when the trade was consumated). What if someone fell (like Hernandez or Mallet). BB completely wanted out of this draft and little/no offseason OTA's situation. Want more proof? BB switched one spot behind with Eagles in 6th (for no compensation)- also well in advance- when Eagles also had OLB needs. Bill also leaked out to Lombardi that they were going to take Mallet - hoping to draw trade interest (and waited till 2nd consecutive pick #74 to give possible trade more time to happen).

BB saw the limited OTA's and / or draft class as not especially deep - as a reason to 'bail' and not just keep making developmental selections that end up on some other teams roster / practice squad (due to NEP deep roster). He took the safe picks, traded away as much as possible into next year and then just bailed out on the final 2 picks. Threw Bill O'Brien a bone in the 7th -a ST pick (instead of IMHO taking a risky but good medical flyer on Greg Romerus).

So in summary dear commrades - he retreated from battle - taking the safe early pickins. minimal losses, minimal risks, and won the long term draft war by getting two high picks next draft.

We Draft from a lets-not-make-a-mistake mode. Not good IMO.
DW Toys

 

[SunnyDenmark]

We Draft from a lets-not-make-a-mistake mode. Not good IMO.
DW Toys

I agree DW - you summed it up well. This year's draft modus operandi was 'lets-not-make-a-mistake'. Safe picks for holes on the roster and few resources (picks) expended this year (no trade ups / trading out til next year).

And guess what - in a year where many wanted to go 'all in', BB instead cashed his chips and walked away early from the table to play again next year. And I completely get it.

Bill didn't know when he would see these rookies, he didn't know how many games would be played, he didn't know when FA would start and how many years of accrued service would qualify. He didn't know how much money it would take to sign this years rookies (rookie wage scale or not). Bill didn't even know for how many years he would be able to sign this years rookies for. So Bill said, F you this years class. I don't know the rules of this game so I don't want to play. And I get it. How are you supposed to develop a draft strategy and a team building strategy for developing these players when you don't even know the most basic thing as how long a contract you are allowed to sign them for?

This years rookie class could well have a redshirt year with little / no OTA's and so why waste a year of their limited rookie contract? Especially on DE conversions and high learning curve positions (WR , defense in Bills complex system). The offense was getting old anyway so take the safe and easy learning curve positions (RB, OT, OG, blocking TE). With unknown rules and not the deepest draft on a already loaded roster - take the safe picks at position with holes (which WILL make the roster) and push as many draft chips into next year. Thats how Bill played draft poker this year while the rules were changing day by day.

And I don't like all of the NEP draft picks -but I understand why he did what he did. Why draft clueless rookies on defense (who you don't trust on the field as little / no OTA's) and waste a year of their contract. Lets see this year on our young defense who develops the most (Pryor, Brace, Deaderick, Weston, Richard, Fletcher, Love, Butler, Whilite, etc). Let these 2nd / 3rd year players get the limited time 'give starters a rest' or 'mop up duty' limited game snaps. Let the 2nd year players get the coaches guidance at practice, let them get the teams resources. Instead of have these 2nd year players knocked off the roster to draft a bunch of highly rated rookie defenders who wont see the field anyway as they won't even have a chance to absorb past page 50 of the playbook. Let alone practice these plays at OTA's.

 

[BlueThunder]

"People". Or "People with a different opinion than ours", is fine. I just don't feel the need to start calling names when someone disagrees with me.

Some people "hated" this draft.....Nobody is calling you names...

Now go take a "time out"