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Ya how's that 3rd round pick for Ridley working out?

Still can't believe people wanted Ingram with a 1st round pick. Ridley is arguably right now the best RB to come out of that draft.

Did you not read my post?

Ridley being successful is EXACTLY MY POINT.

If you reach for a player you better be freaking convinced he's going to be good.

Tavon Wilson was reached for in the second round with the 48th overall pick.

Having him as the dime safety only is a giant failure of a rookie season.

Sciz point that being a dime safety is a "pretty good season for a rookie safety" is completely idiotic.

yeah, a great season for a 7th round pick. Not the #48 overall selection.

EDIT:
And no, I did not want Ingram. I knew he'd be a moderately okay player but nowhere near worth a first round pick.
 
Did you not read my post?

Ridley being successful is EXACTLY MY POINT.

If you reach for a player you better be freaking convinced he's going to be good.

Tavon Wilson was reached for in the second round with the 48th overall pick.

Having him as the dime safety only is a giant failure of a rookie season.

Sciz point that being a dime safety is a "pretty good season for a rookie safety" is completely idiotic.

yeah, a great season for a 7th round pick. Not the #48 overall selection.

EDIT:
And no, I did not want Ingram. I knew he'd be a moderately okay player but nowhere near worth a first round pick.

serious question why do you have to be so negative wilson had a solid season for a rookie S maybe not what you expected but a solid season one the less we dont really have gigantic holes anywhere except WR we will probably add abraham we will probably draft a CB and i dont know why you think we wont improve remember ridley was good but wasnt insanely goo his rookie season give players a chance to develop cause right now youre being so negative and theres no need to be negative
 
We'll see. Barring a trade for Fitzy, I don't see WR being a net plus going into the season.

MG it's 1 position though even if it is worse its still only one position out of 33.
 
serious question why do you have to be so negative wilson had a solid season for a rookie S maybe not what you expected but a solid season one the less we dont really have gigantic holes anywhere except WR we will probably add abraham we will probably draft a CB and i dont know why you think we wont improve remember ridley was good but wasnt insanely goo his rookie season give players a chance to develop cause right now youre being so negative and theres no need to be negative

The reality is people who talk negatively about Tavon Wilson do not know football, they're basing an opinion on what Kiper Jr. said on draft day and pointing out 2 rookie mistakes of him getting beat in games. They don't realize he played really well overall and out performed Smith and Barron on a per snap productivity average.

I personally think he is going to be a very good strong safety and provide us with a consistent player back there who doesn't take bad angles, miss tackles and all the other things Chung and Merriweather did for the last decade.
 
Seriously? This is the most hypocritical garbage I've seen in a while.

YOU need some perspective. We have gigantic flaws on the DL, CB, S and don't have 15 draft picks to fix these issues. We have gotten worse on offense without improving on defense.
The defense certainly has improved.

Last year we were not even close to good enough.
I'd say top 4 is close to good enough.


While the Niners, Falcons and Seahawks all improve we are staying put with what looks like the same issues as we always have.
Why do you think they have all improved?



We are dependent on Brady dominating games to have a chance to win and our secondary will give up massive gains in the air.
Just because we have Brady and win a ton of games does not mean we are dependant on him any more than any team with an elite QB is dependant on theirs.

Our secondary is going to get lit up this year.
Actually it already looks like the best secondary we have had in years. It is clearly improved over last year with the 2 starting corners for a full season who weren't close to a full season last year. McCourty full time at S and Wilson added in place of Chung.
It is as ignorant as can be to not see the 2013 secondary is improved over the 2012 secondary.



Ninkovich will continue to be a massive liability in the running game (though it appears they are at least trying to replace him), and our LBs will continue to let TEs and RBs have monster games in the passing game.
Every team in the NFL has greater liabilities than you just listed.



No one is asking for All Pros at every position.
Well, you appear to be,

But acting like our team is set at every position is pretty hilariously stupid.
Why would they be when they have 10-12 mill left and a draft?


We have some serious issues we need to address, not including having one real WR on the roster who is coming off surgery and has proven can't stay healthy for a full season.

When they play games in March I'll worry about the holes we have a draft and 10-12 mill to work with to fill.
 
serious question why do you have to be so negative wilson had a solid season for a rookie S maybe not what you expected but a solid season one the less we dont really have gigantic holes anywhere except WR we will probably add abraham we will probably draft a CB and i dont know why you think we wont improve remember ridley was good but wasnt insanely goo his rookie season give players a chance to develop cause right now youre being so negative and theres no need to be negative

Ridley was impressive his rookie season. Most people, myself included thought he didn't get nearly enough touches. BB played BJGE because he didn't fumble, but Ridley was clearly the more talented RB.

Wilson has shown no such promise. You could tell Ridley was going to be a dynamic playmaker. Great vision, wiggle and power. Wilson has done nothing to believe he'll be a great safety.

The reality is people who talk negatively about Tavon Wilson do not know football, they're basing an opinion on what Kiper Jr. said on draft day and pointing out 2 rookie mistakes of him getting beat in games. They don't realize he played really well overall and out performed Smith and Barron on a per snap productivity average.

I personally think he is going to be a very good strong safety and provide us with a consistent player back there who doesn't take bad angles, miss tackles and all the other things Chung and Merriweather did for the last decade.

No. Wilson was just barely better than Chung. You trying to credit Wilson with being a good tackler is hilariously wrong. Sure, he wasn't Chung bad, but he was still mediocre at best.

It's the idiots who look at fumbles and interceptions and think they were good who are hilariously wrong. He was mediocre-awful last season and showed ZERO reason to believe he'll be any sort of quality starter in the future. The only reason he even played was because everyone else except McCourty was so hilariously bad.



Andy:
The defense has improved since 2011. The defense has stayed almost exactly the same from last year up to this point. I have no doubt they'll try adding a guy or two by the beginning of the season, but at this point they have most certainly not improved on paper.

This isn't even taking into account that Dennard could easily miss the entire season and Talib is made of glass and going to miss time. What happens when Dennard is in jail and Talib breaks his hip walking from the lockerroom to the field? We start Cole and Arrington as our outside corners???

We were not a top 4 team last year. We were only in the conference championship because the AFC was horrible. SEA, SF, GB, ATL, BAL were all pretty obviously better than us I thought and all would have beaten us head to head.

Falcons is arguable if they've improved I suppose, but you're living under a rock if you really don't think the Niners and Seahawks have improved. They were already better than us and only got better.

A. Wilson could be cut in camp. This belief he's going to come in any be guaranteed to be a great starter is hilariously short sighted. It's the same kind of moronic blind faith in ESPN that John Lynch generated.

Every team has massive liabilities worse than giving up 30 yard gains at will? Yeah right. Sorry. The Patriots are not the best team in the NFL. They are not even close to it and the only reason they've been in the championship hunt the past couple years is because Brady and Bellichick put them on their back and carried an undertalented roster.
 
The reality is people who talk negatively about Tavon Wilson do not know football, they're basing an opinion on what Kiper Jr. said on draft day and pointing out 2 rookie mistakes of him getting beat in games. They don't realize he played really well overall and out performed Smith and Barron on a per snap productivity average.

I personally think he is going to be a very good strong safety and provide us with a consistent player back there who doesn't take bad angles, miss tackles and all the other things Chung and Merriweather did for the last decade.

Comments like the bold diminish your argument. He was not close to Smith or Barron. Its like saying the baseball player who batter 50 times and hit .320 with 5 HRs was better 'per ab' than a guy who batted 600 times and hit .310 with 50 HRs, and acting like it has meaning. (Not to mention those are meaningful stat categories and what you are using are not)

But what Wilson is going to be has very little to do with his rookie season and everything to do with how he improves, what his offseason habits are, how he learns, how much film he watches, and how serious he is about being good.
Its true for most all players. There is no doubt he has the basic abilities and intelligence, but he can improve, and if he doesnt he will go backwards.
 
SF and Seattle have QB's that teams have a season's worth of film on now.

We're screwed. Opponents have 190 games of tape on Brady.

This is 100% fallacy. You think SF creamed ATL because b/c Mike Smith couldn't find tape on Kaepernick? I know you stole the UFGC flavor of the week line, but please.These kids will be getting much better over the next 2-4 yrs as they hit their peak at 27.
 
1. Existing talent, Brady notwithstanding, is on the young side. Guys getting better w/ age should well outweigh guys getting worse with age. And Talib is a special case for the "getting better", as he joined the team mid-season.

2. Gronk is the 2nd or 3rd most valuable player on the team, and he was unavailable for the playoffs. That plus a routine dose of other injuries means injury luck was no better than average last year.

3. Chandler Jones hit a wall. This strengthens at least one of #1 or #2, although it's tough to definitively say which. :)

4. There should be enough FA money left to upgrade the pass rush over last year, Jones' likely improvement even aside.


What worries me, however, is offensive depth. Welker, Woodhead, and Thomas will all wind up having been downgraded, even after the rest of the personnel moves. So if something happens to Vereen or Hernandez again -- then what?
 
What worries me, however, is offensive depth. Welker, Woodhead, and Thomas will all wind up having been downgraded, even after the rest of the personnel moves. So if something happens to Vereen or Hernandez again -- then what?

huh? You can argue WW/DA all day and WW is tough to replace but Woodhead leaving means whoever picks up his slack is a downgrade? I dont buy that at all. Vareen is ready for prime time. I think if BB picks up where he left off we could have another steal. I think Washington is going to really help out.

I dont agree with the FO all the time. But I dont see the downgrade there.

I dont worry about the Oline. I think worring about depth there with Dante coaching and Volmer back is a waste of brainwaves.

WR sure. CB sure...not those positions.
 
lets look at it this way....talking starters and regular contributors

pats lost:
welker, lloyd, woodhead, chung

pats gained:
amendola, jones, washington, awilson

so the pats still need to address WR

broncos lost:
dumervil, dj williams, porter, bannan, koppen, brooking

broncos gained:
welker, rodgers-cromartie, bradley, vazquez, knighton

the broncos basically replaced stokley with welker.....welker is younger, but for him to get more looks than stokley did, it means they are going to have to reduce the looks to decker and thomas......I don't see the improvement since it will force them from playing 2 TE's so their running game is going to go to crap even worse

in order for welker to make the broncos offense better, they broncos are going to have to count on manning throwing a bunch more than in 2012.....don't know if that's good for a 37 year old

defensively, rodgers-cromartie is replacing porter, but he should have been replacing bailey......bailey is done

they are replaing brooking and williams with bradley, and bannan with knighton, and as of yet, don't have replacement for dumervil

denvers defense was a bunch of frauds last year.....they are worse now

baltimore is interesting....they lost a bunch of guys, but found some new ones...the middle of their defense is still gutted.....they need safeties, and they need more depth at ILB though mcclain will replace ellerbe.....and they need to pick up what boldin gave them


anyway, the other top teams in the AFC have taken at least as big steps back.
 
Having him as the dime safety only is a giant failure of a rookie season.

Sciz point that being a dime safety is a "pretty good season for a rookie safety" is completely idiotic.

That's absolutely insane. T.Wilson played in every single game last year and even started five of them. In our system, being that involved as a rookie in the safety position is a positive sign, and he got many reps in the process that will help him learn.

In comparison, Tavon Wilson outproduced ALL 7 of the safeties in front of him in terms of INT's/forced fumbles/turnovers in general. Only Mark Barron defended more passes, and that was only by 3--and Barron was a full time player who started every game in the base defense and a top 10 pick.

WalterFootball.com: 2012 NFL Draft: Safety Rankings

How can you fairly judge a player's career when they're a rookie playing in their first NFL season in a complex and demanding defensive scheme? On top of that he actually did produce better than any one of his pre-draft counterparts. Obviously he had some mistakes and learning periods, but I don't know why you would view him so negatively. There were at least 1-2 other teams who were reportedly interested in T.Wilson in the 2nd round, so I don't blame Belichick at all. It was an obvious need.
 
CB sure...not those positions.

What's wrong with CB? How is it downgraded from last year?

We have at least 2 players who are projected to play full-time for the entire season who did not play that role last year, and on top of that we retained both Talib and Arrington as our own FA's and will likely be adding another player in the draft.

Talib--started 5 games last year, now a full-time starter

Dennard--started 6 games last year, now a full-time starter

Dowling--started 0 games last year, is no longer injured

Arrington--no longer has to be an outside starter and can fill the slot position

(McCourty)--still can fill in if/when we need him to

Higher round draft pick--for future purposes

Williams--primarily special teams player



I agree we will need another free agent signing, maybe a couple for camp fodder/depth/competition, but I don't see anything of a downgrade from last year.
 
That's absolutely insane. T.Wilson played in every single game last year and even started five of them. In our system, being that involved as a rookie in the safety position is a positive sign, and he got many reps in the process that will help him learn.

In comparison, Tavon Wilson outproduced ALL 7 of the safeties in front of him in terms of INT's/forced fumbles/turnovers in general. Only Mark Barron defended more passes, and that was only by 3--and Barron was a full time player who started every game in the base defense and a top 10 pick.

WalterFootball.com: 2012 NFL Draft: Safety Rankings

How can you fairly judge a player's career when they're a rookie playing in their first NFL season in a complex and demanding defensive scheme? On top of that he actually did produce better than any one of his pre-draft counterparts. Obviously he had some mistakes and learning periods, but I don't know why you would view him so negatively. There were at least 1-2 other teams who were reportedly interested in T.Wilson in the 2nd round, so I don't blame Belichick at all. It was an obvious need.

It was an obvious need that could have been addressed later in the draft or in free agency. Wilson did nothing to warrant picking him at #48 overall.

I'm sure you think Kyle Arrington was the best CB in the NFL in 2011 as well, because you know, he led all CBs in interceptions. Was clearly great.

Please. Wilson had meaningless splash stats literally drop into his lap the entire season. He was the king of garbage time and lucky bounce stats.


I would have much rather have taken that pick and traded it into the future and had a first round for this year and drafted Vaccaro or some other real playmaker. I know BB wouldn't have picked him without thinking he'd be good, but you shouldn't be taking gambles like that in the top 50 picks. They should be sure things, not massive reaches.

Hey, if Wilson turns out to be a quality starter I'll be ecstatic. But until he does he hasn't proven he can be and this ridiculous belief he's going to be a good to great calibre safety for us is ridiculous. He hadn't shown anything besides he is moderately better than Chung.
 
49er's and Seachickens are pretty close to that. :(

I understand that these 2 teams are likely to both be very competitive, but I highly doubt that they both have zero needs on their entire team at the beginning of the league year.
 
What's wrong with CB? How is it downgraded from last year?

We have at least 2 players who are projected to play full-time for the entire season who did not play that role last year, and on top of that we retained both Talib and Arrington as our own FA's and will likely be adding another player in the draft.

Talib--started 5 games last year, now a full-time starter

Dennard--started 6 games last year, now a full-time starter

Dowling--started 0 games last year, is no longer injured

Arrington--no longer has to be an outside starter and can fill the slot position

(McCourty)--still can fill in if/when we need him to

Higher round draft pick--for future purposes

Williams--primarily special teams player



I agree we will need another free agent signing, maybe a couple for camp fodder/depth/competition, but I don't see anything of a downgrade from last year.

I was just pointing out places that might be more concerning than the ones he mentioned. I think we are in good shape talent wise at CB. Lets hope Dennard is not a one year wonder, Talib is healthy, and perhaps RID contributes. Also that Dennard stay out of jail which dosent seem to be an issue. If these all happen, which seem realistic then we have a good group. I think RID can be a starter.

Other than WR which will be addressed, I dont see a lot of downgrades on the team. Gronk and AH need to stay healthy. That is my biggest concern actually.

Winning teams stay healthy.
 
I understand that these 2 teams are likely to both be very competitive, but I highly doubt that they both have zero needs on their entire team at the beginning of the league year.

No one is saying they are perfect teams, nor should the Patriots be that. What is being repeatedly stated is that the team has some significant issues that needed to be addressed and really haven't been fixed. DT, DE, S, S3, WR2, WR3, WR4, CB2, OL depth, CB depth all need to be upgraded or filled.

Realistically we can hope that we sign some mediocre WRs who overachieve, some middling CB and OL depth, and a talented young prospect at either DT or DE.

We just don't have the resources to add a couple quality role players and a stud on defense, which is what we need.
 
It was an obvious need that could have been addressed later in the draft or in free agency. Wilson did nothing to warrant picking him at #48 overall.

I understand your point, but there were at least 1-2 other teams that they reported that very day who were interested in taking him in the 2nd round.

I don't agree that "he did nothing to warrant picking him at #48," because he played in every single game and defended 7 passes with 4 INT's and 2 forced fumbles. You can't possibly say that his forced fumbles + all of his INT's were lucky, can you? Certainly not all of the good plays were "luck." There may have been an INT, even two that seemed easy, but every single player in NFL history who actually plays is going to have some of those. That shouldn't discredit everything that he did show progress on.

If we would've picked someone else at his position at #48 and they did the same you'd likely be lauding them for their awesome rookie performance, but because Wilson wasn't on the "experts" boards, that makes Belichick and the scouting dept insignificant? For what it's worth Wilson was the 8th ranked safety on walterfootball.com's big board, yet there were a handful of those players ranked ahead of him who didn't go until the 6th or 7th rounds. The experts don't always have it right, and that's really all you have to go by with your pessimistic views.

I'm sure you think Kyle Arrington was the best CB in the NFL in 2011 as well, because you know, he led all CBs in interceptions. Was clearly great.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything like that. If anything I would agree that some of Arrington's INT's that year were lucky, of course, maybe even the majority of the seven. I also think he is a good player for the star position here, where he plays much better, and was one of the reasons why our secondary improved down the stretch last year. He did a very good job on V.Cruz in the SB, I know that.


I would have much rather have taken that pick and traded it into the future and had a first round for this year and drafted Vaccaro or some other real playmaker. I know BB wouldn't have picked him without thinking he'd be good, but you shouldn't be taking gambles like that in the top 50 picks. They should be sure things, not massive reaches.

The problem is that all of these "other playmakers" from last year didn't put up the kind of numbers that Wilson did, as a matter of fact none even came close, so it's hard to make statements like that. For all we know Vaccaro could be a total dud and never live up to his hype.

I'd much rather have a player like Barron last year or Vaccaro too, but those players are going in the top 10-15 picks every year and the cost to trade up isn't nearly worth what it takes, so we have to make do with what we can--just like any other team.

As a whole our first 3 picks last year were in the top 48, and Belichick surprised everyone by using them all and actually trading up. Since no one had anything to b!tch about, they had to resort to their expert scouting grading system on the reach that was Tavon Wilson. At the end of the day we've done much worse in the 2nd round, so just having a player who can contribute on a regular basis and produce on some level is totally fine with me, as opposed to the Brace's, Butler's, and Chung's of the world.
 
No one is saying they are perfect teams, nor should the Patriots be that. What is being repeatedly stated is that the team has some significant issues that needed to be addressed and really haven't been fixed. DT, DE, S, S3, WR2, WR3, WR4, CB2, OL depth, CB depth all need to be upgraded or filled.

Realistically we can hope that we sign some mediocre WRs who overachieve, some middling CB and OL depth, and a talented young prospect at either DT or DE.

We just don't have the resources to add a couple quality role players and a stud on defense, which is what we need.

I don't know, Tony. I think you may be seeing things too pessimistically.

Really we're down ONE contributing WR..as our top 3 receiving options are going to be Amendola, Gronk, and Hernandez anyway, not to mention that we went back to getting a lot of passes into the RB's hands last year as in years past (45 or so completions). The rest of the signings will simply be depth additions and competitions for spots that no one cares for. We've seen Brady do much better with much worse, so I wouldn't worry too much about it myself. We will add at least a high draft WR and also a handful of lesser free agent signings and be just fine.

What the hell is wrong with CB2 now? As a criminal justice graduate, I can honestly tell you 100% that Alfonzo Dennard is not going to miss the season because he is incarcerated. The prosecuting district attorney even said as much, you can google search it if you don't believe me. They may end up getting a couple of months of jail from him (unlikely it's more than 4-6 weeks on a 90 day sentence), but he sure as hell isn't going to miss any time of real games. On top of that, Dowling has looked good when healthy. Just because he had a nagging injury doesn't mean that Belichick isn't going to have him right back into the rotation again. On top of that they'll likely be choosing a draft pick and another lesser free agent signing too. In a worst case scenario we'd just move McCourty back there for a few games. We don't have a CB depth problem, you're just overreacting.

I don't know why our safeties--who are much better now than in past years aren't good enough for you? We have McCourty, T.Wilson, A.Wilson, and Gregory as the 4 primaries at the moment, and another guy may be added too. That's absolutely fine if the season started tomorrow, let alone 5+ months.

The DL is a position that we should address with either the 1st or 2nd draft pick, in addition to the probable signing of Abraham or Freeny. We also have additions in Armstead, Vega, and Pryor who didn't play last year. They certainly need another high draft pick, and will also likely add a couple of vets for depth and competition. Ninkovich, Jones, Wilfork etc isn't a bad basee to start with.

As far as "not having the resources" that isn't true--obviously. It's just that they have a value system that they stick to, which has proven to be quite successful in the past 12+ yrs. I never once realistically thought that Dumervil was a viable candidate, and those who did really surprised me with those feelings (some of them). That isn't the kind of signing we make here, someone that expensive who is a part-time player. You just have to trust Belichick's system.

There have only been a total of ONE NFL game played since we've been eliminated in the past 2 seasons, so I would assume that they're doing something right.
 
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