We don't need a great QB to win the Super Bowl

[Deus Irae]

but some of us actually don't believe it, like my self because it's pretty simple, Brady was the one guy who was going to keep the over rated defense from being a problem, the secondary is complete junk, it really is, and if you think the front 7 will keep it from being exposed, then your flying pretty high, manning is going to pick apart the defense when the pats play him, and were not going to have brady to pick apart theres..

Ok, the secondary has played one game this season. In that one game, the defense surrendered 10 points, 206 gross yards passing, 61% completion rate, a 5.2 yard per pass average, and had an interception. How you can make the claim that the secondary is "complete junk" with just that as your data is beyond me.

this team is going to give up points is what im trying to say, and Cassel is going to have to do more then manage a game, im pulling for him, i hope this doesn’t become a season where they don’t trust him to throw the ball, by week 8 they better be letting him throw the ball and not trying to win games by hard nose defense and clock management, it wont work.

Again, the team is 1-0 doing exactly what you claim won't work.

long story short, cassel cant win the patriots games by clock management and not turning the ball over because the defense isn’t going to keep the pats in most these games to allow him to do it, the pats are going to have to score 21 plus to win games, and cassel has everything he needs to be successful surrounding him, and known that he is the guy, if he cant utilize it then he wont make it in the league. so lets hope that he is capable to do more then just manage a game, cause he's going to have to.

1-0. I don't know how else to put it. Whether you're right or wrong, it's far too early to tell. So far, you're wrong. If the team falls to 1-2, you may start to have some evidence on your side. Right now, though, your arguments are weaker than any "Cassel is better than Brady and Favre" arguments that people might care to make off of just week 1.

This is particularly true given the theoretically "easiest schedule in the NFL" situation the Patriots have going for them this season.

 

[festy1986]

deus, that was against a team that even after playing them i couldn't tell you who their receivers are.

i cant even begin to understand the infatuation some of the people around here has with hobbs, he isnt going to shut people down, some weeks he will win, some he wont, but he isnt going to be a differance maker.

all my opinions aside, ill be hoping im wrong with the secondary, i think our offense will be fine by mid season, it will still be a top 10 but its not going to carry a bad defense, so lets hope that the defense is better then what i think it is.

to each there own, trust me people, if the pats won the SB and its because of excellent DB play, ill admit I was wrong, and be more then happy doing it.

 

[emoney_33]

deus, that was against a team that even after playing them i couldn't tell you who their receivers are.

[i cant even begin to understand the infatuation some of the people around here has with hobbs, he isnt going to shut people down, some weeks he will win, some he wont, but he isnt going to be a differance maker.

all my opinions aside, ill be hoping im wrong with the secondary, i think our offense will be fine by mid season, it will still be a top 10 but its not going to carry a bad defense, so lets hope that the defense is better then what i think it is.

to each there own, trust me people, if the pats won the SB and its because of excellent DB play, ill admit I was wrong, and be more then happy doing it.

Chad Johnson says hi.

What's with the whole "difference maker" thing? This team is built around 11 players doing their jobs each and every play. DO YOUR JOB, period. Whatever the coaches ask of you, do it. Hobbs has always done just that. And then the impossible-expectations and i-need-a-scapegoat people blame Hobbs for things that aren't his fault or for plays that were just GREAT plays by the other team that any other cb would let up.

 

[festy1986]

hobbs isnt my scapregoat, i assure you.

but i dont like him, he's been burned and certainly isny a number 1, some dont even think he is a 2.

the secondary is an issue, seriously i dont see why some people cant see why people who are concerned over it, are.

 

[hambone1818]

The defense last season came within a TD and 2 point conversion of finishing with the #1 defense in the league. They did this while playing, essentially, a prevent defense for almost half the season. They also did this with a slower LB corp than this season, AD playing out of position and just learning the defense, and with Seymour playing below expectations because of injuries.

This year, AD has another year under his belt, Seymour looks to be the wrecking ball he's been in the past, and their young LBers should make the defense much faster and more versatile. We could argue all day about the secondary, but I'm of the mind that Samuel's been overrated and part of his success was a product of the system. With Deltha in the fold and the rookies only getting better with time, this secondary will be as good or better than the '07 version by mid-season.

I've already forgotten what else you've said because I couldn't make it past the 'overrated defense' comment. This will be a top-5 defense, potentially the best in the league if the rookies progress faster than expected.

 

[hambone1818]

Also, festy, this defense gave up 21+ points last season 5 times including the postseason. They did this, again, while playing a very conservative, vanilla defense for most of the season. They also did this with a high-flying offense that was sometimes off the field before it seemed they were ever on it. And again, they got faster across the board, got a healthy Seymour back, and AD is expect by most to be better this season.

Pessimism just sucks, dude. Give it up.

 

[Double G]

Re: we don't need a great qb to win the superbowl

"Hobbs, Oneal and LSanders are not rookie CBs, thanks."

I was referring to Wheatley clambrain, you're welcome.

And Hobbs had plenty of choices, he made the wrong one.

Christ.

 

[festy1986]

Also, festy, this defense gave up 21+ points last season 5 times including the postseason. They did this, again, while playing a very conservative, vanilla defense for most of the season. They also did this with a high-flying offense that was sometimes off the field before it seemed they were ever on it. And again, they got faster across the board, got a healthy Seymour back, and AD is expect by most to be better this season.

Pessimism just sucks, dude. Give it up.

wow, the defense is a legit concern bub, im not being a hater here, im being way more objective about it.

this isn't a black and white world where there are those who support the pats and those who dont.

i am willing to bet, at this point, right now, that the pats give up 21 points more then five times this year.

last years defense is way better then this years, and i dont even know why were talking about last years considering how many people from that team isnt even on this one.

this is a lose lose for me, if im right about the secondary being a weakness, and giving up big plays like i dont know, the one at the end of the game this past week then the pats dont fair so well and i dont enjoy the season like any fan would want to, if im wrong, then i look like a hater.

if this was last years defense, you wouldnt even get any complaints out of me, but it isn't. sorry man, the secondary didnt get better this year then last, it got worst. its simple. and dont tell me a castaway on a ****ty cinnci defense is a building block for success. its gonna be an issue all season, kinda like the secondary of 2005.

still, they will win a ton of games, and the division, but i dont think there going to, let alone winning the sb now.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

deus, that was against a team that even after playing them i couldn't tell you who their receivers are.

i cant even begin to understand the infatuation some of the people around here has with hobbs, he isnt going to shut people down, some weeks he will win, some he wont, but he isnt going to be a differance maker.

First off, one of their recievers is named Bowe. Remember that, because he is a very good reciever who had a pretty bad game.

Secondly, how many people can you name, playing in the league right now, that shut down everyone they play against? None. No one is perfect. You said it yourself, he will win some, and lose some. The important thing is for him to do what the coaches tell him to do. If that means taking away the inside, or giving a 10 yrd cushion, then thats what he needs to do. No one on this board knows more about Hobbs than B.B., or the defensive schemes for that matter. Yet, alot of people love to say Hobbs sucks. No offense, but if Bill likes the kid, i'm inclined to agree with him. Besides, they've only played one game, how can anyone judge this defense yet?

 

[hambone1818]

wow, the defense is a legit concern bub, im not being a hater here, im being way more objective about it.

this isn't a black and white world where there are those who support the pats and those who dont.

i am willing to bet, at this point, right now, that the pats give up 21 points more then five times this year.

last years defense is way better then this years, and i dont even know why were talking about last years considering how many people from that team isnt even on this one.

this is a lose lose for me, if im right about the secondary being a weakness, and giving up big plays like i dont know, the one at the end of the game this past week then the pats dont fair so well and i dont enjoy the season like any fan would want to, if im wrong, then i look like a hater.

if this was last years defense, you wouldnt even get any complaints out of me, but it isn't. sorry man, the secondary didnt get better this year then last, it got worst. its simple. and dont tell me a castaway on a ****ty cinnci defense is a building block for success. its gonna be an issue all season, kinda like the secondary of 2005.

still, they will win a ton of games, and the division, but i dont think there going to, let alone winning the sb now.

Not sure I appreciate you calling me bub...that point aside, we'll have to agree to disagree. The talk about how last years defense is 1) very different from this years, and 2) much better than this years, doesn't make much sense to me. Going from position to position, in '07 we had a gimpy Seymour on the end; now we have a healthy Seymour (I don't think this point can be made strongly enough: he's one of the most dominant ends in the game and missed almost half the season. The rest of the season he was playing, by all accounts, at less than 100%. His consecutive Pro Bowl streak ended at 5 years, I'm betting he gets back there this year). The rest of the line is in tact and very, very good.

Vrabel is Vrabel...he might regress a little but if the first game is any indication that ain't happening (2 sacks, 6 tackles). AD will absolutely, unequivocally be better this season. He played out of position for much of last year and an injured or less-than-100% Seymour didn't give him much help off the edge. There's no reason to think he won't be dominant this season. Mayo is very good, he's physical, very fast and will be a huge upgrade over Seau/Alexander/whoever. Bruschi is a year older and a year slower. I don't think he'll all of a sudden fall off the table, but he'll probably have less impact this season (though 12 tackles in game 1 doesn't hurt).

The secondary is the real crapshoot, and an area where we'll probably disagree. I think Hobbs will be fine, I think a rotation of Sanders/Harrison/Merriweather is average to slightly above average, and I think the combination of O'Neal/Wheatley/Wilhite will prove solid if unspectacular. And if one of the rookies shows great progress, it could be above average.

As I said, we can agree to disagree, but saying that last years defense is 'way better' than this years seems ridiculous to me. And also saying that there's no reason to compare the two makes little sense: there are exactly two starting positions that have changed--Mayo at ILB and O'Neal/Wheatley at LCB...that's it. So what's this talk about 'how many people from that team isnt even on this one'? Makes no sense.

 

[PJM]

If we take the Chief's game as evidence, and we are optimistic we can say the following:
1) Cassel played very well against the Chiefs. If he can improve on that against better teams and let the team leaders make plays he will not hinder the Pats. But he must improve and grow into the role.
2) We very narrowly beat one of the worst teams in the NFL. Therefore we will have to significantly improve on Sunday's performance just to make the playoffs let alone win the SB.
3) Our defence is good, and has the potential to be very good. It is not dominant; I mean the kind that terrorises teams and makes them throw out half their playbook before the game starts.I have seen a half-dozen such defences and this is not one.

Unfortunately there are far more examples of bad QBs damaging their teams than winning superbowls. Rex Grossman and David Woodley were awful in the big game and guys like Tavaris Jackson and Jake Plummer probably cost their teams a shot. In short, you may not need a great QB to win but you usually need a good one and we just have to hope that Cassel proves to be that.

This is the time to remember how the Patriots got to the top: one game at a time, eyes on the road. As fans we have to forget last year: this year will be tense, ugly and frustrating at times.

 

[PATRIOT64]

Re: we don't need a great qb to win the superbowl

"fourthly...this is the best defense we have had in a while"

Sorry, you lost me there.

Vrabel and TB are older, Seymour needs to revert back to his old form and the secondary is a huge question mark; Rodney is on the back nine and they are going with a rookie CB and a guy they picked up off the scrap heap AND, Hobbs who bit on that inside route in the SB.

I agree 100% with the OP, it's not like the defense is like the 86 Bears or the monster D the Ravens had several years ago, teams are going to score on this defense and I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling that an eight year clip board holder is going to be able to match teams score for score which Brady could do standing on his head.

Remains to be seen how this will play out, it will either be something magical out of a Hollywood movie or a complete and utter train wreck.

If it is a train wreck, I can only imagine how pretty this team will be sitting in 2009 with a pissed off Brady coming back, a great draft seeding and a non first place schedule all rolled into one.

IF it becomes a train wreck all these Cassel lovers will be as short lived as a man being called Britney Spear's husband

 

[PATRIOT64]

Re: we don't need a great qb to win the superbowl

first off.....

from what ive seen so far, Manning is in no position to pick apart any defense right now...

secondly, the secondary is not trash...that was proven week 1...

thirdly, yea, the front 7 is going to be good...

fourthly...this is the best defense we have had in a while

and lastly....what QB won the SB last season?

So what you are saying is based on the secondary's play against a Herm Edwards likely last place team and a team that barely had enough WRs to start a game is proof that the secondary is no longer a concern?

Might be the dumbest statement yet in this early season

Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison > Dwayne Bowe,Jeff Webb and Co.
- Don't even try and compare those receivers to each other

 

[festy1986]

First off, one of their recievers is named Bowe. Remember that, because he is a very good reciever who had a pretty bad game.

Secondly, how many people can you name, playing in the league right now, that shut down everyone they play against? None. No one is perfect. You said it yourself, he will win some, and lose some. The important thing is for him to do what the coaches tell him to do. If that means taking away the inside, or giving a 10 yrd cushion, then thats what he needs to do. No one on this board knows more about Hobbs than B.B., or the defensive schemes for that matter. Yet, alot of people love to say Hobbs sucks. No offense, but if Bill likes the kid, i'm inclined to agree with him. Besides, they've only played one game, how can anyone judge this defense yet?

Could of done better then Hobbs if you ask me. Hobbs as your number one going into the season is insane if you think it's a good idea. My opinion.

Not sure I appreciate you calling me bub...that point aside, we'll have to agree to disagree. The talk about how last years defense is 1) very different from this years, and 2) much better than this years, doesn't make much sense to me. Going from position to position, in '07 we had a gimpy Seymour on the end; now we have a healthy Seymour (I don't think this point can be made strongly enough: he's one of the most dominant ends in the game and missed almost half the season. The rest of the season he was playing, by all accounts, at less than 100%. His consecutive Pro Bowl streak ended at 5 years, I'm betting he gets back there this year). The rest of the line is in tact and very, very good.

Vrabel is Vrabel...he might regress a little but if the first game is any indication that ain't happening (2 sacks, 6 tackles). AD will absolutely, unequivocally be better this season. He played out of position for much of last year and an injured or less-than-100% Seymour didn't give him much help off the edge. There's no reason to think he won't be dominant this season. Mayo is very good, he's physical, very fast and will be a huge upgrade over Seau/Alexander/whoever. Bruschi is a year older and a year slower. I don't think he'll all of a sudden fall off the table, but he'll probably have less impact this season (though 12 tackles in game 1 doesn't hurt).

The secondary is the real crapshoot, and an area where we'll probably disagree. I think Hobbs will be fine, I think a rotation of Sanders/Harrison/Merriweather is average to slightly above average, and I think the combination of O'Neal/Wheatley/Wilhite will prove solid if unspectacular. And if one of the rookies shows great progress, it could be above average.

As I said, we can agree to disagree, but saying that last years defense is 'way better' than this years seems ridiculous to me. And also saying that there's no reason to compare the two makes little sense: there are exactly two starting positions that have changed--Mayo at ILB and O'Neal/Wheatley at LCB...that's it. So what's this talk about 'how many people from that team isnt even on this one'? Makes no sense.

the only point Im trying to make with this thread is that this defense is NOT going to allow Cassel to just manage games like some SB defenses did for those other avg. Qb.

He will have to play good enough to win the Pats some games. If all their going to do is ask him yo manage games, its of my opinion that the defense will allow too many points in more then their share of games for him to just "manage" the game and expect to win.

with all the talent on offense, there is no reason for Cassel to just sit on the run and manage the clock. he should have everything he needs to succeed assuming he him self has the talent to exploit the weapons on offense..

 

[Lifer]

we had a great QB last year and didnt win the SB. So i dont see how the Patriots win the SB with Cassell. Although that being said, as ive posted before, if they use the same playbook with Cassell as they did with Brady and dont go conservative, the Patriots should be able to go 11-5 or 12-4 and make a nice showing in the playoffs. Go conservative like last week and they will go 8-8.