We CAN make the cap room to sign Peppers - Unsubstantianted Claim

[Mainefan]

Reading this discussion, I come to two conclusions:

1. It could be done, just barely.

2. It shouldn't be done. It would tie BB's hands in the year to come.

I think this is a violation of the first principle, which is to field a contender every year. It might be great for this year and perhaps next, but what about all of our own free agents and everyone else in the years to come.

So, while this is an appealing fantasy, I say no thanks.

But not to Taylor.

 

[Miguel]

Future roster bonusses do not count against this years cap, but any guaranteed money does.

From the CBA:

(iv) ​

​

Amounts Treated as Signing Bonuses. For purposes of determining Team Salary under the foregoing, the term “signing bonus” shall include:.....​

(12)

In a Player Contract, or any renegotiation or extension of a Player Contract, that is executed in the Final Capped Year, each of the following, if it is to be earned or paid to the player in the Final League Year (which is an Uncapped Year): (a) any Salary advance which the player is not and cannot be obligated to repay;
(b) any off-season workout bonus that is contingent upon the player’s participation in less than 32 days of the Club’s off-season workout program; (c) any off-season roster bonus; and (d) any off-season reporting bonus;​

 

[Shockt327]

Miguel, how does the option bonus work?

Specifically in regards to the Haynesworth contract. Cause I can't see how that 20 million dollar option bonus is paid out in 2010 (even if prorated) and the Skins still keeping Haynesworth's cap number around 8.8 mil.

 

[mgteich]

1) Thus far the numbers relating to Light, Faulk and Brady are misleading and mostly nonsense. If we want to discuss such possible contracts here, we should lay out new contracts as we have before, including analysis. I do believe that there can be some cap savings. However, this is not likely to be enough. More savings is available by extending Light, Faulk, and perhaps Green. I think that we are waiting until next year to extend Brady.

2) With all the fuss, are we really discussing whether we can afford to pay Peppers $12M a year with a $7.2M 2009 cap, and whether we want to re-negotiate at least three, probably four, contracts with other players to do so? That is really what Haynsworth got. How about considering whether we WANT to pay Peppers $12M a year? BTW, I believe that the Haynsworth option is NOT guaranteed. The team could opt not to pay the option and allow Haynsworth to be a free agent after this season.

We might be willing to do that. Peppers would essentially get an $11M one year contract and then the team could decide whether to continue another three years at $12M a year (with $29M of it guaranteed). This is really two contracts, an inital $11M trial period and pre-negotiated 3 year extension at the team's option.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

It is possible, anything's possible really. Extending Seymour/Faulk/Green could free up $5M+. Restructure Bruschi or trade/cut like Vrabes. Brady is normally willing to restructure, others may. We could definately free up about $10M or so for Peppers it's just a matter of is he worth that.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Just for reference, I think we should actually take a look at the Haynesworth deal just to see how manageable it really is.

1) A comparable deal will not ruin the franchise.
2) Peppers isn't in a position get what Haynesworth did.
3) Getting Peppers for a cap hit of 7-8 mil is pretty
reasonable. Certainly not "insane."

Note: Haynesworth will be cut or restructured before 2013. Those years are in red.


Year__Base__Signing __Option____Total Cap Hit
2009 $6.00__ $1.00___ ------____$7.00
2010 $3.60__ $5.20___ ------____$8.80
2011 $5.40__ $5.20___ ------____$10.60
2012 $6.70__ $5.20___ ------____$12.40
2013 $8.50__ $5.20___$20.50____$34.2
2014 $10.30_ $4.20___$0.50_____$15.0
2015 $11.50_ ------___$0.50_____$12.0

Haynesworth actually looks affordable when you look at that deal. Obviously he won't see his 2013 money the way that it's structured. If we sign Peppers to a similar deal but scale it down a bit to reflect the fact that he's playing OLB and not DE, then I don't see why Peppers couldn't be affordable as well for at least the first 4 years. I think the contract can be done, the big problem will be fitting in his initial 17M pricetag to the Pats cap before the new contract comes into play.

 

[Pats726]

It is possible, anything's possible really. Extending Seymour/Faulk/Green could free up $5M+. Restructure Bruschi or trade/cut like Vrabes. Brady is normally willing to restructure, others may. We could definately free up about $10M or so for Peppers it's just a matter of is he worth that.

It's also a matter of how all of that with Peppers will effect the team...paying Peppers a lot for a player who is in a new position?? What about Seymour, Wilfork, Brady, Mankins et all...MAKING that move will have consequences..

 

[Ring 6]

From the CBA:

(iv) ​

​

Amounts Treated as Signing Bonuses. For purposes of determining Team Salary under the foregoing, the term “signing bonus” shall include:.....​

(12)

In a Player Contract, or any renegotiation or extension of a Player Contract, that is executed in the Final Capped Year, each of the following, if it is to be earned or paid to the player in the Final League Year (which is an Uncapped Year): (a) any Salary advance which the player is not and cannot be obligated to repay;
(b) any off-season workout bonus that is contingent upon the player’s participation in less than 32 days of the Club’s off-season workout program; (c) any off-season roster bonus; and (d) any off-season reporting bonus;​

Does that mean:

If you give a future non-guaranteed roster bonus it counts in that future year, but if it is guaranteed (or anything guaranteed) counts the same as a signing bonus, i.e. amortized?
Thats what i was trying to say, but i dont think i was clear. Am I correct?

 

[Miguel]

Does that mean:

If you give a future non-guaranteed roster bonus it counts in that future year, but if it is guaranteed (or anything guaranteed) counts the same as a signing bonus, i.e. amortized?
Thats what i was trying to say, but i dont think i was clear. Am I correct?

It says that because 2009 is capped and 2010 is uncapped any offseason roster bonuses beyond 2009 will be treated like a signing bonus.

The OP has yet to fail to include that fact into his calculation. Brady is due a $3 million roster bonus in 2010. Any restructure of his deal would cause that to be amortized in 2009.

 

[Grizzafted]

Peppers is NOT signing a long term deal at $7M/season.

He's got nearly $17M coming to him for just a single season if he signs the franchise Tender.

He's going to want compensation in the form of long term guarantees for every penny of that $16.7M he gives back.

Maybe he gives New England a discount, but I think $7M is insane. His agent should insist on resigning before he agrees to that deal.

Quotes like this make me feel people are not paying attention. HE WANTS OUT OF CAROLINA. They have offered him, a huge, huge contract. And he wants to play OLB in a 3-4. He's not stupid enough to think he should get a DE franchise number for an OLB position.

 

[PATSNUTme]

It says that because 2009 is capped and 2010 is uncapped any offseason roster bonuses beyond 2009 will be treated like a signing bonus.

The OP has yet to fail to include that fact into his calculation. Brady is due a $3 million roster bonus in 2010. Any restructure of his deal would cause that to be amortized in 2009.

Miguel, Dale Arnold on WEEI mentioned your pages on the radio this noon time. He said that was where he goes to get cap info all the time.

I'm going to email him and suggest he send some money to the Bread for Life if he's using your work to sound smart on the radio.

 

[Grizzafted]

YOU ARE ALL FORGETTING THAT THE MOST LIKELY SCENARIO IF THIS HAPPENS IS THE PANTHERS WITHDRAW THE TAG IN EXCHANGE FOR THE 34 PICK.

And the likelihood of that happening is..................well basically zilch but that's how this would happen if it did happen. Here's what Mike Reiss emailed me:

------------------------------
Mike

Thanks for all your great reporting over the years. I have a question for you about the potential cap hit were Peppers come to New England. Like you, I’m doubtful this will come to pass, but I wonder, if Carolina withdrew the franchise tag on their own, would the Pats still need 17 mil of cap space to sign him? In other words, I understand that any trade that involved Peppers signing the tender offer would require the Pats to have 17 mil of space (which would make this trade impossible), but can Carolina withdraw the franchise designation in exchange for compensation from the Pats?

Under this scenario, the Pats would ship no.34 to the Panthers in exchange for their lifting the tag, and then Peppers is a UFA and can sign with the Pats. Would it be legal for them to have a deal in place for that eventuality, or would that open the Pats to legal obligations to send multiple first round picks?

Take care
xxxxx

HI xxx,

In the extremely unlikely event that Carolina withdraws its franchise tag on Peppers, then Peppers would become an unrestricted free agent and the Patriots, or any other team, would not need the 17m in cap space.

--Mike

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

YOU ARE ALL FORGETTING THAT THE MOST LIKELY SCENARIO IF THIS HAPPENS IS THE PANTHERS WITHDRAW THE TAG IN EXCHANGE FOR THE 34 PICK.

And the likelihood of that happening is..................well basically zilch but that's how this would happen if it did happen. Here's what Mike Reiss emailed me:

------------------------------
Mike

Thanks for all your great reporting over the years. I have a question for you about the potential cap hit were Peppers come to New England. Like you, I’m doubtful this will come to pass, but I wonder, if Carolina withdrew the franchise tag on their own, would the Pats still need 17 mil of cap space to sign him? In other words, I understand that any trade that involved Peppers signing the tender offer would require the Pats to have 17 mil of space (which would make this trade impossible), but can Carolina withdraw the franchise designation in exchange for compensation from the Pats?

Under this scenario, the Pats would ship no.34 to the Panthers in exchange for their lifting the tag, and then Peppers is a UFA and can sign with the Pats. Would it be legal for them to have a deal in place for that eventuality, or would that open the Pats to legal obligations to send multiple first round picks?

Take care
xxxxx

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...yone-know-panthers-current-cap-situation.html

 

[Miguel]

YOU ARE ALL FORGETTING THAT THE MOST LIKELY SCENARIO IF THIS HAPPENS IS THE PANTHERS WITHDRAW THE TAG IN EXCHANGE FOR THE 34 PICK.

Why would the Pats, let alone any team, give up anything to sign an UFA??

 

[mgteich]

If Peppers worked out a deal with the pats. The panthers could come to the pats and offer to withdraw the tag for a 2nd. This presumes that the pats don't believe that they can just wait until he is cut.

Why would the Pats, let alone any team, give up anything to sign an UFA??

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

It's also a matter of how all of that with Peppers will effect the team...paying Peppers a lot for a player who is in a new position?? What about Seymour, Wilfork, Brady, Mankins et all...MAKING that move will have consequences..

Yeah it could have major consequences in future years. It is possible but certainly not easy.

 

[Ring 6]

1) Is Carolina allowed to withdraw the tag?
2) Are we allowed to give compensation to Carolina for withdrawing the tag? This is while they have rights.

If Peppers worked out a deal with the pats. The panthers could come to the pats and offer to withdraw the tag for a 2nd. This presumes that the pats don't believe that they can just wait until he is cut.

I dont think thats the way it works. I think he has to sign the tender, be traded and renegotiate all at once.
You cannot trade a player you do not possess, so once the tag is withdrawn, the Panthers have no rights to him.

 

[solman]

In other words, Brady is going to agree to reduce his 2009 salary by $4,000,000 in return for what amount of money in 2010. He is already due $6.5 million in 2010.

In other words, Light is going to agree to reduce his 2009 salary by $3,250,000 in return for what amount of money in 2010. He is already due $4.5 million in 2010.

In other words, Faulk is going to agree to reduce his 2009 salary by $1,900,000 in return for what amount of money in 2010. He is not due a thing in 2010.

Brady will agree to play four extra years and forego the following compensation:

2009: $4M and
2010: $6.5M

in exchange for the following amounts

2009: $1M
2010: $101.3M
2011: $1.6M
2012: $1.9M
2013: $2.2M
2014: $2.5M

I believe that his remaining cap hit from previously paid compensation would be:

2009: $9.6M and
2010: $3M

I believe that his total cap numbers will be (including this previously paid compensation):

2009: $10.6M (down from $14.6M)
2010: $24.3M (up from $10.2M)
2011: $21.6M
2012: $21.9M
2013: $22.2M
2014: $22.5M

I'm not trying to negotiate a deal on Brady's behalf. I'm just trying to show how he can shed $4M under the existing CBA while getting extended. A substantially similar deal could be crafted for more or less compensation. If such a contract were actually created, it would very likely be more complicated. But there is no need to complicate things. I'm just demonstrating a simple way to get it done.

You can perform a similar analysis for Light and Faulk. Going forward I'm going to answer any questions with respect to Brady, unless somebody claims that Faulk or Light are fundamentally different.

 

[solman]

If the Pats did not use the option bonus maneuver to reduce Randy Moss' 2009 cap charge, why would they then use it on Brady, Light and Faulk???

Good question.

It could be that at the time Randy's deal was redone, BB wasn't expecting to need so much extra cap space.

If it later becomes clear that we do need that much cap space, he would have to get it from other players, since he can't redo Randy's restructuring.

 

[solman]

Reading this discussion, I come to two conclusions:

1. It could be done, just barely.

2. It shouldn't be done. It would tie BB's hands in the year to come.

I think this is a violation of the first principle, which is to field a contender every year. It might be great for this year and perhaps next, but what about all of our own free agents and everyone else in the years to come.

So, while this is an appealing fantasy, I say no thanks.

But not to Taylor.

I obviously agree with point #1. Its the point of this thread. I'd like to know why the title was changed to unsubstantiated when there seems to be agreement on the title point "We CAN make the cap room to sign Peppers"

With respect to point #2:

If there is no cap in 2010 and Dan Snyder, Robert Kraft and Jerry Jones start acting like the Yankees, Red Sox and Mets, then this is, IMNSHO, a very good idea.

If there is no cap in 2010 and people act reasonably, it is a moderately bad idea. It will improve the talent we put on the field, but have serious negative business consequences, amongst them an increased likelihood of serious trouble negotiating a new CBA.

If there is a cap in 2010, it is a very bad idea.