Was this Josh McDaniels best game?

[Deus Irae]

We hear it every year it's becoming the most predictable cliche, to blame it all on execution instead of McDaniels' ******ed end drives.

You keep basing your love of McDaniels on stats like 3rd down conversion, while totally ignoring the fact McDaniels has had WAY more weapons and talent than Weis ever had until say 2004, while also ignoring that the defense has been great too while McDaniels has been here.

His entire tenure has had superior talent to Weis' offenses. McDaniels had tons of offensive talent in 2006 even with his crappy receivers, his defense that year was #2 and before going into the playoffs was amazingly good, and even with his crappy receivers the overall unit was way better than what Weis had to work with in 2001.

You can talk all you want of the 01-04 defenses, but fact is the championships all came down to a key drive late in the game in order to win it, and they pulled through every time.

We had key drives the last three seasons, and they have been pathetic. A bunch of slow developing deep bombs, over and over, completely telegraphed to the Giants. An int intended for Brown when everyone knew who the ball was going to.


This argument is starting to eerily parallel 01-04 debates between Patriot and Colts fans about why Brady or Peyton was better. You can list all the stats you want to make Peyton sound better and blame every major Colts playoff loss on execution, and you will never understand why you keep coming up short.

It's the same thing with McDaniels. You are way too in love with the stats to realize the guy has been flat out horrible in the 4th quarter of big games. You are in love with Peyton i.e. McDaniels, whereas I go with the OC and player with the rings, while you are sitting there with no clue why you keep losing.

How was that O.C. in the Big AFC Championship game against San Diego last season, when the team ran off a 9+ minute drive in the 4th quarter? Oh, yeah.... you just conveniently ignored that one. You've allowed idiotic hostility to the offensive coordinator to turn you into a complete joke of a poster. It's not even original, because every team's fan base complains about their offensive coordinator and his play calling. You've not only allowed yourself to become a cliché but you've done a piss poor job while doing it.

 

[Rob0729]

We hear it every year it's becoming the most predictable cliche, to blame it all on execution instead of McDaniels' ******ed end drives.

You keep basing your love of McDaniels on stats like 3rd down conversion, while totally ignoring the fact McDaniels has had WAY more weapons and talent than Weis ever had until say 2004, while also ignoring that the defense has been great too while McDaniels has been here.

His entire tenure has had superior talent to Weis' offenses. McDaniels had tons of offensive talent in 2006 even with his crappy receivers, his defense that year was #2 and before going into the playoffs was amazingly good, and even with his crappy receivers the overall unit was way better than what Weis had to work with in 2001.

You can talk all you want of the 01-04 defenses, but fact is the championships all came down to a key drive late in the game in order to win it, and they pulled through every time.

We had key drives the last three seasons, and they have been pathetic. A bunch of slow developing deep bombs, over and over, completely telegraphed to the Giants. An int intended for Brown when everyone knew who the ball was going to.


This argument is starting to eerily parallel 01-04 debates between Patriot and Colts fans about why Brady or Peyton was better. You can list all the stats you want to make Peyton sound better and blame every major Colts playoff loss on execution, and you will never understand why you keep coming up short.

It's the same thing with McDaniels. You are way too in love with the stats to realize the guy has been flat out horrible in the 4th quarter of big games. You are in love with Peyton i.e. McDaniels, whereas I go with the OC and player with the rings, while you are sitting there with no clue why you keep losing.

Yeah, I know that Weis is kicking himself that if he stayed he could have had Matt Cassel over Tom Brady this year or Reche Caldwell over Deion Branch. You do realize that the Pats have a better 3rd down conversion percentage this year than any year with Weis? You do realize that McDaniels had a LESS than Weis ever had in 2006 or this year (I would say the loss of Brady trumps having Moss and Welker)? Only a McDaniels hater would argue otherwise.

I do have to agree that it is unfair to blame the receiver for dropping a ball right to him when he is wide open like Gaffney two weeks ago or Caldwell in the AFC Championship game in 2006. As you point out, those two plays are clearly McDaniels' fault. It is clearly just McDaniels ball washing to not blame him for his receivers not catching the ball they should. "Rational" and "intelligent" people like you and NEM put the blame where it belong - on McDaniels.

BTW, I said the last drive in the Super Bowl was McDaniels' fault. I sorry, but I cannot shutdown my brain like you and blame McDaniels for clear execution errors like Caldwell's dropped pass or Gaffney's dropped pass two weeks ago (which you also blamed McDaniels for). I actually admire you in that you can forgo all logic and reason and just blame McDaniels for everything.

 

[Rob0729]

How was that O.C. in the Big AFC Championship game against San Diego last season, when the team ran off a 9+ minute drive in the 4th quarter? Oh, yeah.... you just conveniently ignored that one. You've allowed idiotic hostility to the offensive coordinator to turn you into a complete joke of a poster. It's not even original, because every team's fan base complains about their offensive coordinator and his play calling. You've not only allowed yourself to become a cliché but you've done a piss poor job while doing it.

Wait! That was all Brady and execution. There was a rumor that stated that McDaniels told Brady just to rerun the scripted plays from the beginning of the game again and Brady ignored him. I swear it is a true rumor. It was reported everywhere, but I can't provide a link now.

 

[maverick4]

Here you go again with the obsession over 3rd down conversion rate, you sound just like a Peyton Manning looney from 01-04 bringing up stats to cover up what were obvious deficiencies at the time in his game. You keep throwing people under the bus just like Peyton too talking about 'protection problems', it's always the other guy right?

As for Reche, nobody ever lost a game on a dropped ball. Why do you sound like such a whiney little Colts fan who keeps making excuses of 'what if' for McDaniels? We did not lose that game because of Reche Caldwell, stop blaming him to make your Offensive God look good.

Those games were winnable, but it's so easy for you to blame it all on one player for not executing what in your mind is always the perfect game plan. Under one coach with much lesser talent, his offense always comes through in crunch time, under another coach with loaded talent every season ends on a horrible final drive. These are not coincidences, it is as big as the difference between Tom Brady and Peyton Manning from 01-04 in the way they play. Stats don't always tell the entire story. 3rd down conversion rate is not the barometer for who is a better coordinator over another.

You could not be on McDaniels' junk any more than you are now. And you are crazy for thinking McDaniels would have won against the Rams with a comfortable margin.

 

[Rob0729]

Here you go again with the obsession over 3rd down conversion rate, you sound just like a Peyton Manning looney from 01-04 bringing up stats to cover up what were obvious deficiencies at the time in his game. You keep throwing people under the bus just like Peyton too talking about 'protection problems', it's always the other guy right?

As for Reche, nobody ever lost a game on a dropped ball. Why do you sound like such a whiney little Colts fan who keeps making excuses of 'what if' for McDaniels? We did not lose that game because of Reche Caldwell, stop blaming him to make your Offensive God look good.

Those games were winnable, but it's so easy for you to blame it all on one player for not executing what in your mind is always the perfect game plan. Under one coach with much lesser talent, his offense always comes through in crunch time, under another coach with loaded talent every season ends on a horrible final drive. These are not coincidences, it is as big as the difference between Tom Brady and Peyton Manning from 01-04 in the way they play. Stats don't always tell the entire story. 3rd down conversion rate is not the barometer for who is a better coordinator over another.

You could not be on McDaniels' junk any more than you are now. And you are crazy for thinking McDaniels would have won against the Rams with a comfortable margin.

I'm sorry 3rd down conversion rate isn't an important stat. You blow a 3rd down, you can always make it on 4th or 5th or 6th down. I already posted in another thread all the three and outs the Pats had in 2003. Sorry, 3rd down conversions is one of the four most important offensive stats along with yards, points, and turnovers. You don't convert third down, you lose possession in 9 out of 10 drives. Even the most gambling teams only average a little over 1 4th down attempt a game. That means most of the time you punt if you don't convert 3rd downs. That is a key stat even if it is over your head.

I agree no one lost a game on a dropped ball. The reason the Pats lost the Colts AFC Championship game was because the Pats blew a 21-3 lead and let the Colts score 35 points in the second half. I am only talking about the final drive that you blame McDaniels for it. The Pats clearly lost that game because they had no answer for Dallas Clark and Joseph Addai. Hence why they made Adalius Thomas an offseason priority. Way to change the argument when backed into a corner. You have repeatedly blamed McDaniels for that game. I blame the defense. I am just examining the drive that you seem to hold him most accountable for.

Jesus, what are the players never at fault in your mind. Whether it is McDaniels or Weis, the players have to execute. You cannot blame the OC for everything. There was a big difference between making bad calls like at the end of last year's Super Bowl and poor execution like the Caldwell drop and Brady's INT. If you can't see that, maybe you should go to a remedial football fan's board where everything is black and white.

Again, I never said that the Pats would have won by a comfortable margin. If the best you can do is put words in my mouth to make me look bad, you are losing big time. I said the Pats MIGHT have won without that final drive. I also conceeded that they might have lost too. We don't know, but under my hypothetical the Pats only had to be up by one point to be correct. If you consider a one point win, a comfortable margin so be it.

 

[maverick4]

Sorry, 3rd down conversions is one of the four most important offensive stats along with yards, points, and turnovers.

You can keep harping on your obsession over 3rd down conversion all you want, that is not what makes an OC great. It is the same kind of discussion over Peyton vs Brady from 01-04. You can obsess over TD's and passing yards all you want as a Colts fan, which you are sounding like right now, but in the end a guy like Brady or Montana is better than a Manning or a Marino despite inferior stats, and I'm sorry that people like you will never understand why some players win and others have a harder time winning championships.

You are just like a Dolphins or Colts fan convinced his QB Peyton or Marino is the best ever, and the blame for why they always fall short in playoffs is always on someone else, never on your God.

Pretty much the same analogy is in play when you look at Weis vs McDaniels. McDaniels is the OC version of a Peyton or Marino, flashy stats but falls apart under the big game. Weis won 3 rings with far inferior offensive parts, McDaniels has had amazing weapons plus a great D, put up huge stats, but he gets in trouble when his game plans fall apart mid-game.

But keep on repeating those 3rd down conversion stats, I hear they are a great indicator and predictor of championships.

 

[Rob0729]

You can keep harping on your obsession over 3rd down conversion all you want, that is not what makes an OC great. It is the same kind of discussion over Peyton vs Brady from 01-04. You can obsess over TD's and passing yards all you want as a Colts fan, which you are sounding like right now, but in the end a guy like Brady or Montana is better than a Manning or a Marino despite inferior stats, and I'm sorry that people like you will never understand why some players win and others have a harder time winning championships.

You are just like a Dolphins or Colts fan convinced his QB Peyton or Marino is the best ever, and the blame for why they always fall short in playoffs is always on someone else, never on your God.

Pretty much the same analogy is in play when you look at Weis vs McDaniels. McDaniels is the OC version of a Peyton or Marino, flashy stats but falls apart under the big game. Weis won 3 rings with far inferior offensive parts, McDaniels has had amazing weapons plus a great D, put up huge stats, but he gets in trouble when his game plans fall apart mid-game.

But keep on repeating those 3rd down conversion stats, I hear they are a great indicator and predictor of championships.

You want to compare PPG?

2001: 23.2
2002: 23.8
2003: 21.8
2004: 27.3
2005: 23.7
2006: 24.1 (with Reche Caldwell as the lead WR and Corey Dillon as the lead back who was spent by the second half every game. Easily the worst weapons for Brady in his career)
2007: I won't even post
2008: 20.9 (with no Brady)

How about YPG

2001: 305.1
2002: 317.8
2003: 314.6
2004: 357.6
2005: 352.0
2006: 335.6
2007: 411.2
2008: 328.1

The offense is works better with McDaniels. Your championships argument is weak because you are basically saying that Crennel and the defense and Belichick were irrelevant to the Super Bowl runs. They weren't. Weis didn't win the Super Bowls alone. The defense was a huge part of the Super Bowl seasons and those defenses were better than the ones the Pats have today.

The Pats haven't had a true shutdown CB since midway through 2004. They have had an OLB rotation like Vrabel, McGinest, and Colvin since McGinest was let go. Harrison and Bruschi weren't the dominant players since Harrison's knee injury and Bruschi's stroke. Seymour has had a bunch of down years. The Pats have had inconsistent ILBs over the year after Crennel left and Phifer and Ted Johnson retired (Seau was great when he was in but that was a year and a half). You can't discount those players and downgrades no matter how you want to.

The Pats won two of their three Super Bowls with dominant defense and efficient offense. No matter how much you want to spin it, it is the facts. I judge an OC on offensive production and the production under McDaniels has been there with Weis even if you take out last year.

I guarantee you if Weis had the defense over the last three years instead of the one he had backing him up he wouldn't have three Super Bowl rings right now.

 

[BionicPatriot]

You want to compare PPG?

2001: 23.2
2002: 23.8
2003: 21.8
2004: 27.3
2005: 23.7
2006: 24.1 (with Reche Caldwell as the lead WR and Corey Dillon as the lead back who was spent by the second half every game. Easily the worst weapons for Brady in his career)
2007: I won't even post
2008: 20.9 (with no Brady)

How about YPG

2001: 305.1
2002: 317.8
2003: 314.6
2004: 357.6
2005: 352.0
2006: 335.6
2007: 411.2
2008: 328.1

The offense is works better with McDaniels. Your championships argument is weak because you are basically saying that Crennel and the defense and Belichick were irrelevant to the Super Bowl runs. They weren't. Weis didn't win the Super Bowls alone. The defense was a huge part of the Super Bowl seasons and those defenses were better than the ones the Pats have today.

The Pats haven't had a true shutdown CB since midway through 2004. They have had an OLB rotation like Vrabel, McGinest, and Colvin since McGinest was let go. Harrison and Bruschi weren't the dominant players since Harrison's knee injury and Bruschi's stroke. Seymour has had a bunch of down years. The Pats have had inconsistent ILBs over the year after Crennel left and Phifer and Ted Johnson retired (Seau was great when he was in but that was a year and a half). You can't discount those players and downgrades no matter how you want to.

The Pats won two of their three Super Bowls with dominant defense and efficient offense. No matter how much you want to spin it, it is the facts. I judge an OC on offensive production and the production under McDaniels has been there with Weis even if you take out last year.

I guarantee you if Weis had the defense over the last three years instead of the one he had backing him up he wouldn't have three Super Bowl rings right now.

I agree. The only thing I think that seperates them is adjustment skills. Weis, IMO, would have had a more productive offense out in the 2nd half against the Giants. McDaniels hasn't shown that adjustment skill yet, but he's still a pretty solid OC. He's done a lot for the team and hes helped develop Cassel from scratch. Give him some credit people.

Rob has one thing right, this team was a superbowl with that special defense. When that front 7 was dominant they were unbeatable. They need that kind of front 7 speed on the edges again

 

[Rob0729]

I agree. The only thing I think that seperates them is adjustment skills. Weis, IMO, would have had a more productive offense out in the 2nd half against the Giants. McDaniels hasn't shown that adjustment skill yet, but he's still a pretty solid OC. He's done a lot for the team and hes helped develop Cassel from scratch. Give him some credit people.

Rob has one thing right, this team was a superbowl with that special defense. When that front 7 was dominant they were unbeatable. They need that kind of front 7 speed on the edges again

I agree that McDaniels doesn't have the adjustment skills as Weis yet, but they are not nearly as bad as some make them out to be and he has been improving in that area. In fact, I think he is pretty good most of the time. They were just Weis' biggest strength. Things like that come with experience. Last year, he rarely had to make adjustments because the Pats had the game virtually locked up by halftime.

 

[maverick4]

Thank you for proving my point that you are obsessed with stats the same way Marino and Peyton lemmings are, when they debate whether Marino/Peyton is better than Brady/Montana. Typical 01-04 conversation: "But... Peyton's better, look at his stats! Waaah!!" Response: "He chokes in the playoffs, everyone can see this"

I love how you went ahead and listed the ppg and yardage stats for McDaniels, to cement the fact you have no idea that winning big games goes beyond the sexy numbers. The quality of a player, and in this case a coordinator, goes beyond regular season stats.

Just like any idiotic Colts fan from 01-04, you still have no clue why a Brady (i.e. Weis) is better than a Manning (i.e. McDaniels) despite inferior statistical numbers.

At the end of the day you can only blame things on vague things like execution, no clue why you lost... I trust McDaniels as much as I would trust a guy like Mike Martz in a big game, which is not very much.

 

[maverick4]

You want to compare PPG?

2001: 23.2
2002: 23.8
2003: 21.8
2004: 27.3
2005: 23.7
2006: 24.1 (with Reche Caldwell as the lead WR and Corey Dillon as the lead back who was spent by the second half every game. Easily the worst weapons for Brady in his career)
2007: I won't even post
2008: 20.9 (with no Brady)

The Pats won two of their three Super Bowls with dominant defense and efficient offense. No matter how much you want to spin it, it is the facts. I judge an OC on offensive production and the production under McDaniels has been there with Weis even if you take out last year.

I guarantee you if Weis had the defense over the last three years instead of the one he had backing him up he wouldn't have three Super Bowl rings right now.

Wow are you crazy. The 2006 offense was still WAY better than the 2001 offense Weis had to work with, plus McDaniels had the #2 defense that year to back him up. Weis had Jermaine Wiggins, JR Redmond, a no-name offensive line, a 6th round pick QB, and some smurf receivers, Patten was also a cast-off. Yet that 2001 offense is still outscoring the 2008 offense even though our 08 offense is loaded at every single position except QB.

Also, the defense was good from 01-04 but the championships ALL came down to a winning offensive drive at the end. Weis called the correct set of plays to win all 3 times. Conversely, the last 3 years have also come down to important offensive drives for us, and all times we have failed. Plus McDaniels has always had strong D behind him. It is just like a Brady vs. Manning argument, stats don't tell the whole story. Big games show who is a champion and who is a stat whore.

 

[Rob0729]

Wow are you crazy. The 2006 offense was still WAY better than the 2001 offense Weis had to work with, plus McDaniels had the #2 defense that year to back him up. Weis had Jermaine Wiggins, JR Redmond, a no-name offensive line, a 6th round pick QB, and some smurf receivers, Patten was also a cast-off. Yet that 2001 offense is still outscoring the 2008 offense even though our 08 offense is loaded at every single position except QB.

Also, the defense was good from 01-04 but the championships ALL came down to a winning offensive drive at the end. Weis called the correct set of plays to win all 3 times. Conversely, the last 3 years have also come down to important offensive drives for us, and all times we have failed. Plus McDaniels has always had strong D behind him. It is just like a Brady vs. Manning argument, stats don't tell the whole story. Big games show who is a champion and who is a stat whore.

Ok, I am on to you. You are just saying stupid things to get my goat. I'm onto to you. If not, you you need to seek help and I nominate this post as the dumbest post of the week.

Just a couple of things though. You might want to brush up on your Patriots history. The Eagles Super Bowl ended on an INT by Harrison and the Pats scored their last points with 9:40 left on the clock (a FG). Also, the Broncos won by 2 TDs. It didn't come down to an offensive drive at the end. The Pats lost that game because they turned the ball over 6 times including two special teams fumbles and two regular fumbles (non-McDaniels' fault).

So if you are going to say stupid things just to get a rise out of me, at least get your facts straight.

 

[Rob0729]

Thank you for proving my point that you are obsessed with stats the same way Marino and Peyton lemmings are, when they debate whether Marino/Peyton is better than Brady/Montana. Typical 01-04 conversation: "But... Peyton's better, look at his stats! Waaah!!" Response: "He chokes in the playoffs, everyone can see this"

I love how you went ahead and listed the ppg and yardage stats for McDaniels, to cement the fact you have no idea that winning big games goes beyond the sexy numbers. The quality of a player, and in this case a coordinator, goes beyond regular season stats.

Just like any idiotic Colts fan from 01-04, you still have no clue why a Brady (i.e. Weis) is better than a Manning (i.e. McDaniels) despite inferior statistical numbers.

At the end of the day you can only blame things on vague things like execution, no clue why you lost... I trust McDaniels as much as I would trust a guy like Mike Martz in a big game, which is not very much.

Yet again, you do relies that you are throwing insults eventhough you don't get that your comparison means something totally different than what you intend. There isn't that much of a drop off from Brady or Montana to Manning or Marino. It isn't like Brady is All World and Manning is a JAG. Both are All World, but Brady is just a bit better. Just because Montana is better than Marino doesn't mean Marino isn't one of the 3-5 best QBs of all time. So you are conceeding that McDaniels and Weis are close to each other in talent, but you can't make the argument that McDaniels is better because of stats. Otherwise, your example doesn't make sense.

So we agree that there isn't all that much difference between Weis and McDaniels. Thank you. You are coming around.

 

[maverick4]

There isn't that much of a drop off from Brady or Montana to Manning or Marino.

So you are conceeding that McDaniels and Weis are close to each other in talent, but you can't make the argument that McDaniels is better because of stats. .

Actually Marino and Peyton's numbers personally and as an offensive unit are better than Montana or Brady's, but why do Montana and Brady have 7 collective championship rings?

The numbers and your obsession over 3rd down conversion rate, are not end-all indicators of who is a better OC.

In terms of in-game adjustments and big game moments, McDaniels is not even close to Weis, the same way Peyton and Marino suck compared to Montana or Brady.

 

[Rob0729]

Actually Marino and Peyton's numbers personally and as an offensive unit are better than Montana or Brady's, but why do Montana and Brady have 7 collective championship rings?

The numbers and your obsession over 3rd down conversion rate, are not end-all indicators of who is a better OC.

In terms of in-game adjustments and big game moments, McDaniels is not even close to Weis, the same way Peyton and Marino suck compared to Montana or Brady.

And yet Marino was a first ballot HOFer and so will Manning. Both are or will be considered among the greatest of all time. Most teams would kill to have a QB of their quality to be their franchise QB for a decade or so. I don't get the comparision with Weis and McDaniels unless you conceed that McDaniels is a great OC. I don't know how you are arguing that McDaniels isn't a good OC when you are saying he is the Marino or Manning of OCs while Weis was the Brady or Montana. If the Pats didn't have Brady as their franchise QB, I would gladly take a Marino or Manning and so would any other rational Patriots fan.

Besides, Marino never had a defense or running game until his skills eroded. Manning never really had a defense. Put them in Brady's situation through 2001 and 2004, they might have won just as many championships. This is a team game. No QB has won a Super Bowl on his own. Not even Brady or Montana.

 

[maverick4]

I don't get the comparision with Weis and McDaniels unless you conceed that McDaniels is a great OC.
Besides, Marino never had a defense or running game until his skills eroded. Manning never really had a defense. Put them in Brady's situation through 2001 and 2004, they might have won just as many championships.

I never said McDaniels is a bad OC, in fact I have called him an above average OC who usually comes in with strong game plans (but that he can't adjust when it doesn't work). He is like Marino or Peyton in that they put up pretty stats but choke in big games, they are one trick ponies.

Your last sentence is the biggest difference between us.

I, and pretty much the rest of knowledgeable America, is of the viewpoint that if Manning and Brady switched 01-04, Manning does not win as many Superbowls, maybe not even 1. Same with Marino in his prime. You give far less credit to the individual player and his style and way too much to some mythical system or defense. Your thinking is similar to Colts fans who said Brady wasn't even in the same class as Manning due to stats from 01-04, and that the Pats Defense was the reason they won all those rings. No it wasn't. The defense has been strong the past 3 years and we haven't won it.

McDaniels would not have won 3 rings with the 01-04 teams, maybe not even have won a single one.

 

[Rob0729]

I never said McDaniels is a bad OC, in fact I have called him an above average OC who usually comes in with strong game plans (but that he can't adjust when it doesn't work). He is like Marino or Peyton in that they put up pretty stats but choke in big games, they are one trick ponies.

Your last sentence is the biggest difference between us.

I, and pretty much the rest of knowledgeable America, is of the viewpoint that if Manning and Brady switched 01-04, Manning does not win as many Superbowls, maybe not even 1. Same with Marino in his prime. You give far less credit to the individual player and his style and way too much to some mythical system or defense. Your thinking is similar to Colts fans who said Brady wasn't even in the same class as Manning due to stats from 01-04, and that the Pats Defense was the reason they won all those rings. No it wasn't. The defense has been strong the past 3 years and we haven't won it.

McDaniels would not have won 3 rings with the 01-04 teams, maybe not even have won a single one.

I'm tired of arguing this with you. You can speak of hypotheticals as absolutes all you want, but neither you nor I know what would happen if Marino or Manning were QB in 2001-2004 nor if McDaniels was calling the plays or not. Nor do we know if we would be 6-3 today with Cassel playing the way he is with Weis at the helm. We can speculate, but that is all we can do.

 

[maverick4]

I'm tired of arguing this with you. You can speak of hypotheticals as absolutes all you want, but neither you nor I know what would happen if Marino or Manning were QB in 2001-2004 nor if McDaniels was calling the plays or not.

OK, I get it, now you're tired and are backtracking from your previous declarations that under McDaniels the Pats would have won against the Rams comfortably without the need for a final game-winning drive, and that with Peyton or Marino instead of Brady, the Pats win 3 or even more rings from 01-04.

I agree there is no point continuing this discussion. This OC discussion is similar to the same tired debate of Brady vs. Manning from 01-04 on who is better, and you keep harping like a Colts fan about defense or throwing other people under the bus and never understanding why Peyton/McDaniels is such a choker. This is why you fail to see why our losses the past three years have been related McDaniels, because you don't see why Peyton is such a choker compared to Brady from 01-04.

 

[Rob0729]

OK, I get it, now you're tired and are backtracking from your previous declarations that under McDaniels the Pats would have won against the Rams comfortably without the need for a final game-winning drive, and that with Peyton or Marino instead of Brady, the Pats win 3 or even more rings from 01-04.

I agree there is no point continuing this discussion. This OC discussion is similar to the same tired debate of Brady vs. Manning from 01-04 on who is better, and you keep harping like a Colts fan about defense or throwing other people under the bus and never understanding why Peyton/McDaniels is such a choker. This is why you fail to see why our losses the past three years have been related McDaniels, because you don't see why Peyton is such a choker compared to Brady from 01-04.

Not backing down at all. I am just tired of going in circles. I never said the Pats would have won comfortably, you said I did. That is a big difference. Why bother arguing with you when you put words in my mouth? It is tiring repeating myself clarifying how you misquoted me.

Moderators, I think it may be time to lock this thread.

 

[maverick4]

We are just going in circles at this point.

You think just like a Colts fan, every year before 06 the Colts lose to the Pats in a big game and they blame it on everyone except for Peyton Manning, and talk as if there is no difference in clutch-ness or ability to handle pressure compared to Brady, when there obviously is. It's always some excuse like the defense or the O-line, and that if they switched Manning would have 3 rings. It's a crap argument, the players are totally different in make-up, and all Colts fans can do is point to the statistics.

Similarly, you obsess over McDaniels and his stats, while ignoring the fact he has always had lots of weapons to work with, a great D behind him, but like Peyton always seems to falter in the big moment, oftentimes with head scratching or bone headed play calls. Yet it's always the fault of someone else, the defense, some receiver, never questioning if the offensive coordinator maybe put the chess pieces in the wrong spot.

The past 3 years if we still had Weis we would have at least 1 more ring.