Was part of Welker's success "The System" ?

[AzPatsFan]

I was a huge Welker fan, I still am, the guy was just a flat out warrior who produced legendary numbers, got smashed around a lot and popped back up, just was a great player for the Pats. But I'm starting to wonder, was some of that success part of "The System", in other words, the way the Slot Receiver is integrated into the Patriot's Playbook.

As we've seen from Edelman this season, as well as his rookie season (replacing Welker when he missed time with injury), His production is very similar to Welker's when he's had a chance to be the main slot receiver (In fact he has better stats at this point to Welker in receptions and yards). We we even saw a snippet from Amendola in game 1 where he had a Welker-esque game.

Is this system driven success ?

Of course. When BB was initiating a Total team rebuild, he could substitute for a great O-line and a RB corps with a dink and dunk passing game using TB talent and WW quickness.

Over the last four years we have selected a pair of bookend tackles, and found a few interior linemen to attend and graduate form Dante's Graduate School for Offensive linemen. BB drafted great TEs, too. We also drafted a RB corps and rebuilt the Defense in the entirety,

When the WR vet patches could no longer even stagger to the line dotage, we even are rebuilding the receiving corps.

Wes took less money to go elsewhere and it was his perogative.

 

[PatsFan2]

It's not like Welker has fallen off in Denver. He's probably gonna set a career high in touchdowns.

Good point the scarry thing with him in Denver is that he's #3 there, while he was #1 here. The point is when Peyton Drops back the Defense is checking where D Thomas and E Decker are. Wes shouldn't be doubled as much as he was here because D Thomas and E Decker will kill you on the outsides in single coverage. I didn't even mention there TE J. Thomas who is threat by himself things that make you go hmmmm.

 

[Deus Irae]

Good point the scarry thing with him in Denver is that he's #3 there, while he was #1 here. The point is when Peyton Drops back the Defense is checking where D Thomas and E Decker are. Wes shouldn't be doubled as much as he was here because D Thomas and E Decker will kill you on the outsides in single coverage. I didn't even mention there TE J. Thomas who is threat by himself things that make you go hmmmm.

Welker is 2nd on the Broncos in receptions, first downs and targets, leads the team in TDs, and is tied for the most 20yards+ receptions despite his being the slot receiver.

I'm not sure how you get that equating to him being the #3.

 

[PatsFan2]

Welker is 2nd on the Broncos in receptions, first downs and targets, leads the team in TDs, and is tied for the most 20yards+ receptions despite his being the slot receiver.

I'm not sure how you get that equating to him being the #3.

Demaryius Thomas = 393yds

Eric Decker = 340 yds

Wes Welker = 266 yds

Julius Thomas = 237yds

My point is WW supporting cast open things up for him and not vise/versa.

 

[Deus Irae]

Demaryius Thomas = 393yds

Eric Decker = 340 yds

Wes Welker = 266 yds

Julius Thomas = 237yds

My point is WW supporting cast open things up for him and not vise/versa.

Your attempt to make a point makes absolutely no sense. You're using total yardage as a benchmark against a slot receiver.



That's stupid.

 

[PatsFan2]

Your attempt to make a point makes absolutely no sense. You're using total yardage as a benchmark against a slot receiver.



That's stupid.

So you're telling me they have nothing to so with his success two Legit Outside WR's? Now that's stupid on your part good night!

 

[Zeus]

The Patriots used Welker's skills far more intelligently than the Dolphins did. In effect, Wes was replacing Troy Brown. As PFK pointed out above, Brown went from a spare part to a 90+ catch guy when BB took over in 2000 - and that was with Drew at QB.

To the extent that Edelcritter and Amendola can eventually stay on the field, their numbers will pick up significantly as well. Calling the successful Patriots slot receivers "system players" is a non-sequitur. It's more about recognizing the skills that these players have and putting them in a position to succeed. That's called good coaching.

Welker is running the same stuff in Denver that he did here. I read a lot about Fox and Manning adopting slot receiver concepts from the Patriot playbook. That's smart, too

Welker's a great player and I expect he will continue thrive in Denver. He had a chance to stay - he chose to go. NE had a chance to keep him - they chose to move on as well. For whatever reason, both sides were ready to part company.

Coaches and players deal with these issues all the time. Coaches don't fall in love with players (except the rare franchise QB) because the rate is attrition is so incredibly high. Players look out for their own interests because no one else will. That's the nature of the beast. Next man up.

Welker's moved on, the Patriots have moved on. Maybe it's time for the fans to move on as well. There's a game on Sunday ...

 

[patfanken]

The system certainly helped Welker, both here and in Denver.

He's dealing with qbs who are great at checking down.

He's also incredibly talented and would have done well anywhere.

And I miss him...sniff...

We all miss him, but the point of this thread is, would this offense be better off if Wes was here. Would he have more production than we've gotten from DA and Julian in the same offense with the same WRs. I would opine: "I don't think so". And thus far the numbers should bear that out, DESPITE the fact that our slot receivers are working under the handicap of having 2 rookie wide receiver, while Wes is working with a receiver group which is arguably better than the one Wes broke in with in 2007

 

[Deus Irae]

So you're telling me they have nothing to so with his success two Legit Outside WR's? Now that's stupid on your part good night!

I'm telling you that he's not been the WR3, and that trying to use raw yardage as your "proof" when you're comparing a slot receiver to the outside receivers in the manner that you are is stupid. Slot receivers will generally have the smaller YPC, making your argument a completely biased one from the start. Again, Welker is #2 in receptions, targets and first downs, behind Thomas in each case. He's also the team leader in TDs scored.


Right now, he's the team's WR2, though Manning is obviously spreading the ball around fairly evenly to the top 3, and their slotting is subject to change over time.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

When Brady was hurt in 2008, skeptics said his production would drop off the table.

When he hurt his knee the skeptics said he wouldn't be the same

When Randy Moss flaked out the skeptics said his production would plummet.

When he left for Denver, skeptics said his production would fall since he wouldn't be the clear favorite target anymore and the offense would not be geared toward him getting open.

So far the skeptics are:
wrong,
wrong,
wrong,
and wrong.

I've moved on from Wes, wish him well except for when his accomplishments affect the Patriots, yet I do not feel a need to belittle what he did and what he can still do, just to (I guess) make myself feel better about him being gone. That's just crazy.

It is what it is,

and good players sometimes wear another jersey.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

I am not trying to be flip, but how can this be a serious question when 4 games in Welker has caught either 5 or 6 TDs in Denver? I haven't watched every game, but I think when he's been targeted I saw him drop maybe one pass. He's caught everything else thrown his way. Why can't we accept that he is a talented receiver who uses his skill set to the max?

I stand by my feelings that the Pats made a huge mistake by letting him go, but they did, so I've moved on and am happy with the way our team is playing. I know I am part of the problem in responding to this thread, but I wish we could just let Welker go until the week(s) the Pats play Denver.

WW is here and catches 100+ a year. He leaves. Julian Edelman is pressed into service to, largely, be the new WW. Julian Edelman is on track for 100+ catches same as WW. Given that, how can this not be a valid question to consider if the system is responsible for producing this 100+ yard type receiver? Liking WW and thinking it was a mistake to lose him, sepearte issues, doesn't invalidate the question IMHO.

With that said, I'm with the posters who believe Julian is very underrated. I think this answers the question why BB and staff last year felt JE should be a bigger role in the passing game (even if it meant some less snaps for WW). The staff obviously saw something with Julian that I think we are all seeing now (though with only 4 games in the jury is not quite decided on this). Given Julian with some SERIOUSLY less potent targets to take the coverage heat of him, this is impressive and again speaks to why BB and staff were trying to work him into the game. But I think injury keeping him off the field, keeping him from building momentum, some lack of patience for drops/errors that was forced to be overlooked this year, this placed a fog around this newly found value of Julian.

But, bottom line, WW is a producer. Sure the system is part of it but the player has to have the skills/tools to produce within that system. I don't think that statement is a knock on WW or any player. And WW doing what he is doing in Denver proves that he isn't a singular result of the BB/TB production, he's a big time producer in his own right (provided he, like almost all WRs, has a QB who can effectively get the ball to him and an OC who knows the schemes to get the ball to him).

 

[50-yard-line]

We all miss him, but the point of this thread is, would this offense be better off if Wes was here. Would he have more production than we've gotten from DA and Julian in the same offense with the same WRs. I would opine: "I don't think so". And thus far the numbers should bear that out, DESPITE the fact that our slot receivers are working under the handicap of having 2 rookie wide receiver, while Wes is working with a receiver group which is arguably better than the one Wes broke in with in 2007

Both Julian and Amendola can play outside, too.

I think if the front office had known about Ahern, they would have matched, kept Welker AND Amendola.

Welker is a match-up nightmare. NO ONE runs crisper short routes and is where he's supposed to be better than WW.

I get the argument that Brady relied on him too much, to our detriment, and I agree - and that's on Brady and the OC.

WW is one of hte top receivers in the league. Of course we'd be better off with him than without him.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Both Julian and Amendola can play outside, too.

I think if the front office had known about Ahern, they would have matched, kept Welker AND Amendola.

Welker is a match-up nightmare. NO ONE runs crisper short routes and is where he's supposed to be better than WW.

I get the argument that Brady relied on him too much, to our detriment, and I agree - and that's on Brady and the OC.

WW is one of hte top receivers in the league. Of course we'd be better off with him than without him.

I don't think an argument can be made that we're not better with WW. Even with JE emerging in a serious way, DA almost about to finally come fully on the scene, the WW type production these guys are/will bring, we would still be better off with WW as an additional weapon (obviously this disregards cap metrics questions). However, in reality it appears that the Patriots are going to have good WW type production without WW. IF DA returns and stays healthy and IF JE stays healthy (an underrated value of WW = staying healthy), the Patriots are not going to be longing for WW services. Now add to that it appears this year, if not now it appears very soon, Thompkins + Dobson look to be an upgrade over Lloyd + Underwood/Branch/(fill in the blank), it's hard to not like where the Patriots WR situation is or will be very shortly without WW.
All this means, bottom line, as much as WW is a value I would give him up for a middle of the pack productive TE. It's the far far far greater need than any consideration we would be better/we could use/we want WW back idea.........

 

[BrickPat]

I lol whenever Jets fans say Brady is a system QB when they point to Cassel's successful fill in as proof.

Now we have Pats fans alluding that Welker was a product of the same system. If the Patriot's system "made" every WR then Chad Jackson, Ocho Cinco, Taylor Price, Joey Galloway, et al would've been just as successful.

Sure Welker benefited from the system but he also happens to be a talented (and highly durable) receiver. It takes a sound system AND a talented player.

This thread is another thinly veiled attempt to say Welker doesn't deserve much credit for his years of production / durability with the Pats. No doubt "the system question" would never be posed if he was still on the team.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I definitely share the view that Welker is not now, never was and never will be a receiver whose success in NE could be ascribed to "The System," as Deus and others have extensively argued.

But, in all seriousness, with Wilfork out for the season and a cloud hanging over Gronk's return don't we have other things about which to worry than Wes Welker (until the week before the Bronco's game)?

 

[BrickPat]

When Brady was hurt in 2008, skeptics said his production would drop off the table.

When he hurt his knee the skeptics said he wouldn't be the same

When Randy Moss flaked out the skeptics said his production would plummet.

When he left for Denver, skeptics said his production would fall since he wouldn't be the clear favorite target anymore and the offense would not be geared toward him getting open.

So far the skeptics are:
wrong,
wrong,
wrong,
and wrong.


I've moved on from Wes, wish him well except for when his accomplishments affect the Patriots, yet I do not feel a need to belittle what he did and what he can still do, just to (I guess) make myself feel better about him being gone. That's just crazy.

It is what it is, and good players sometimes wear another jersey.

Please refrain from using logic and objective analysis, it frightens and confuses the blind laundry worshippers.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

We all miss him, but the point of this thread is, would this offense be better off if Wes was here. Would he have more production than we've gotten from DA and Julian in the same offense with the same WRs. I would opine: "I don't think so". And thus far the numbers should bear that out, DESPITE the fact that our slot receivers are working under the handicap of having 2 rookie wide receiver, while Wes is working with a receiver group which is arguably better than the one Wes broke in with in 2007

Since what you opine is a hypothetical wrapped in a theory wrapped in a "maybe," there's really no way to respond, other than to say, "Yeah, hypothetically and theoretically, 'Maybe.' So what?"

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I'm telling you that he's not been the WR3, and that trying to use raw yardage as your "proof" when you're comparing a slot receiver to the outside receivers in the manner that you are is stupid. Slot receivers will generally have the smaller YPC, making your argument a completely biased one from the start. Again, Welker is #2 in receptions, targets and first downs, behind Thomas in each case. He's also the team leader in TDs scored.


Right now, he's the team's WR2, though Manning is obviously spreading the ball around fairly evenly to the top 3, and their slotting is subject to change over time.

Deus. I appreciate and admire your tenacity on this point here, but sometimes we just have to accept that it's a waste of breath and bandwidth. The Welker detractors will keep going until they get the last word, no matter how illogical.

Nothing more to see here...time to move on, which is what I am doing. I'm outa this thread.

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

Was came into the NFL with a fizzle because he didn't fit the demographics.

Miami picked him up and we got to play him twice a year. BB saw what he was capable of and signed him in 2007 (after 2006 and the year without Branch and enjoying a cast of other teams cast-offs).

We paid a 2nd and a 7th fro Welker's services and people say we overpaid because we got Randy for a 4th.

What does this mean? It means BB saw the greatness in Welker before he made his way to NE and donning #83 forthe home team. Also, BB puts players in the best possible position to accentuate their skills. Seems to me that Wes picked up our offense quicker than pretty much and other player (with maybe a slight exception to Woodhead, but his route tree was far more limited).

Wes took hits that would have killed or permanently injured most of us on this board. Did I love Wes as one of the guys on our team. Heck yeah. Do I hate him because he's now playing with Manning and a conference foe. No. I admire the success he's made for himself and give him all the credit in the world. Did TB and the Patriots help make hi ma household name. Sure did, but he probably would have gotten similar attention (be it more slowly) with any other top tier (top 10) QB.