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Wagging the Dog

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Jun 16, 2011.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Resolved: Regardless of what one believes about the solution, threatening default on U.S. debt by treating the raising of the debt ceiling as conditioned on political demands creates uncertainty and contributes to the present down trend in economic indicators particularly in the financial sector.

    Resolved: This trend, insofar as it is influenced by market uncertainty owing to the highly politicized budget debate characterized by unrealistic thinking geared to elections rather than economic policy, will intensify until and unless the debt ceiling is raised.

    Resolved: Ultimately, taking the debt ceiling game to its crescendo and refusing to pay obligations due will result in skyrocketing borrowing costs at both the national and the personal level.

    Discuss.

    PFnV
  2. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    playing chicken with our future........in front of a big train that will make a mess out of everything.

    but then again, it could be the exact thing that our culture needs in order to shift us away from a consumer-based economy to a happiness-based one

    we as a people need to stop counting on instant gratification as a means of long term happiness
  3. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They need to get spending cuts and entitlement reform as part of the deal. The cuts are always promised for the future while the deficit spending and tax increases happen right away.


    Guess what the promised spending cuts never happen we have seen this game played for years (cue the who 'won't get fooled again') the people who want to reduce have a leverage point they must use it.

    The Treasury is bringing in ~160B per month. That will cover SS, Medicare and the Military budget and interest on the debt. Do that and then decide what else to spend the remainder on and start sending out pink slips.
  4. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    the loopholes for the top 1% of American wage-earners need to be closed.

    sorry, there should be no ability to make deductions from gross income earned above 1M
  5. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That is chump change. A Flat Tax would be better.
  6. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    exactly, but you'd be amazed at how much revenue my idea would generate.....its not as chump change as you think.... hell, lower it down to 250K for individuals....if you can't make a go of it on that, then tough cookies
  7. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We could tax the top1% at 100% and still run a huge deficit, btw who invest to create new enterprises or expand existing business?
  8. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    this is the same excuse you hear all the time......differentiate between personal corporate income........reinvestment comes off the bottom line.....but not stock options

    BTW, I'm in that club (or close to it)

    you'd be suprised how little people at the top give a crap about the people who make the money for them........greed is literally the root of all evil today
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  9. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #11 Jersey

    Who doing it now?
  10. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No one due to the current business environment. Too bad the government is making it so hard on business.
  11. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Why even have a "debt ceiling" if you simply vote to raise it every two or three years? Since it hit a trillion dollars for the first time in 1981 it has been raised 33 times.

    And how does the borrower determine their own credit limit? Isn't that usually determined by the lender(s)?
  12. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    You can tax people as highly as you want, and it won't be enough to pay for the gross mismanagement of funds by the gubmit.

    I'm indifferent on the debt ceiling. I think they'll obviously raise it, but what difference will it really make? I'm convinced the only thing that will get us to right the ship, is a Greece like collapse. I'm not even sure we could right the ship with the amount of existing, and in place structural debt we have on our books.
  13. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    there are 2 separate issues.....


    one is the fact that the government is mismanaged

    the other is the distribution of the tax burden........it is inversely proportional to the distribution of wealth in this country.....huge problem
  14. PatsFanInVa

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    On government mismanagement: compared with what?

    On the subject of 13's 100% fact free "first come the tax increases..."

    WHAT tax increases? We're at a historic low in taxation, and were already aberrantly low based on the Bush gifts to the rich. Then we had a bipartisan biggest-tax-cut-evah this winter. The Dems got their stimulus in tax-cut form in the Social Security tax cut, and the pubbies got their gifts to the rich extended.

    So what the hell, 13?

    We've been doing nothing but CUT taxes for decades. That is in large part why we're broke.

    PFnV
  15. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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    I thought this thread was going to be about Libya.
  16. DarrylS

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    The debt ceiling will be raised, the Investor Class and Power Elite have too much at stake here..
  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    True point in the first paragraph, but I have an alternative solution to the Greek collapse. How 'bout we repeal NAFTA, withdraw all foreign troops and close the bases. That would be a good start. Then, in a year or two, we restore the tarriff system like every other country on the planet. Think the Owners would go alonf with that? I doubt it too. Maybe we need a Greek collapse.:(
  18. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    It is "instant gratification" combined with ego. Some people actually are obsessed with financial success as if it somehow reflects upon their standing in society. It's foolish game many play.

    They want everyone to see "what they have"...the big house and the $100k car (or 2) in the driveway. Does anyone else really care what "they" have? I doubt it....

    Sad, but true...
  19. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    A US financial collapse would send the world into deep depression. When the world's largest, most successful nation/economy goes belly-up, it begins a chain reaction around the world...I doubt we could ever imagine the suffering if we did pull a "Greece" on our debt.
  20. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Our corp tax rates are among the highest n the world. The dems will not entertain entitlement reform, see the recent budget negotiations and Obama in your face reply to the Ryan budget.

    The taxes on individuals are too high, in addition to the federal income tax, payroll taxes (don't forget the matching employer portions) a person earning money has to deal with state income taxes, property taxes (even if you don't own a house it is 'built into' your rent, state sales taxes and in some cases municipal income taxes.

    The idea that people who pay taxes are under taxes is ludicrous.

    The administration proposes reducing the deficit by a combination of tax increase and spending cuts the taxes are first then the spending 'cuts' are phased in over time. of course the 'cuts' in spending never happen we have seen congress repeatedly play this game over the past 20 years,

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