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Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Apr 11, 2010.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Hey poopoo heads. It's the last weekend before tax day, so a lot of youze have been looking at your W-2s lately.

    With all the crying, whining, and gnashing of teeth over taxes lately, why don't we all talk about roughly how much of our check got withheld for federal taxes?

    Mine's about 17%.

    "Wahhhhh you didn't count social security, medicare, and state tax, wahhhhhh," you say?

    All that adds up to another 13% or so for me. Wahhhhhhh that's 30% of my check I can't use on stuff I need (by the way, I do need stuff, and I'm not rich.)

    Now, when you add in charity giving and retirement planning, my take-home pay is around 58% on the dollar -- and I'm not even close to maxing that out. Wahhhhhhhh I see less than 60 cents of every dollar I make!!! That must be because of my taxes... well, and my own voluntary TSP income deferment and DB pension contribution and automatic insurance deductions and charitable giving...

    How about you guys? What's the federal tax load for you? What's the total tax load for you?

    With all the crying I hear about federal taxes here, and all the complaining about the notion that the top earners might pay an extra percentage or two SOME TIME down the line, I'm curious to know how many of us stand any chance of paying that.

    By the way: if we're serious about fixing our deficits, my numbers have to increase. I've accepted that. But I'd love to hear how many of us are tyrannically oppressed by the Feds, and what constitutes tyranny hereabouts. Percentages should be fine.

    PFnV
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  2. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    If it were only Federal taxes, I might agree but you failed to include Medicare and Social Security taxes that are matched by your employer (7.65% by each total). If you are lucky enough to be self-employed, you pay both ends (15.3%). Tack on state taxes that can range up to 10% in high tax states like NY or NJ and local taxes which can be another 1% or more with 4% in Philadelphia proper. Some jurisdictions like mine add an occupational tax, a tax based on your job title that can be another $400 per year.
    In my area they added an emergency Services fee of $52 per year. It sounds good and who could object, except the emergency services haven't seen a dime of the revenue. Throw in local property taxes and it becomes death by a thousand cuts. Add up all the taxes in aggregate sometime(and if you're a business owner, throw in the workman's comp which is a tax, unemployment and all the little nuisance fees like sign inspection fee, business privilege taxes of 0.5% of revenue ..etc) and it soon becomes an onerous burden with a larger share of the tax base being borne by a smaller percentage of the population with upwards of 50% of the population paying no Federal tax according to recent news reports.
    One year I added it all up in total and as a percent of my income and it was staggering and sickening. We all owe our fair share, the question becomes what is a 'fair' fair share?
    I'm not whining, just trying to give a different perspective.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  3. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I have no moral objection to paying taxes when that's all we're talking about. I understand the need for community assistance and collaborative efforts like infrastructure and resource management, etc. My big problem is what government does with my taxes. The total percentage doesn't matter to me. It's the percentage of the total that the government shovels to corporate subsidies and their various methods of murdering people, imprisoning my fellow citizens at the highest rate in the developed world and destroying the environment.

    I'd gladly pay 50% if I knew that our government was using that money to help those paying into it instead of redistributing the wealth upward toward those that already have plenty. And I don't fault those who have plenty and have worked hard or creatively for it. Good for us, right? But stop ripping me off and making laws that enable the ultra rich and their lawyers to siphon the wealth of this country into their off-shore accounts and tax shelters by putting themselves in control via campaing financing and lobbying without restraint. The First Ammendment wasn't made for the protection of corporate interests. Corporations are not people.

    This is why I think our tax system is inherently unfair. I favor a consumption tax with an exemption limit up to a certain percentage (to be determined by anyone but me) and excluding food, clothing, medicine and a home-the basics for survival. It will help us re-assess our habits and help the environment. The government will have plenty to operate on. We can close our foreign bases and end the corporate wars.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Now on top of this the administration is putting forward the idea of passing a VAT tax to 'lower the deficit' a la Europe, then on top of that they are looking to pass cap and trade with all it's taxes.
  5. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your Tax Money:
    To Bad Bush Is Gone They Would Love To Blame Him.........

    The only ‚Äústimulus‚ÄĚ this moonbat administration cares about is Big Government. Billions are sucked out of what remains of the economy‚Äôs productive sector to pay ever-more-outrageous salaries and benefits to politically correct layabouts who spend all day e-mailing one other and sharpening pencils, assuming they show up at all - a large assumption indeed
    Dim bulbs at IRS let us eat cake - BostonHerald.com

    What About "The Poor People" the loons favorite slobbering act.
    http://www.bostonherald.com/news/re...cash_no_creation_of_jobs/srvc=home&position=0
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  6. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    All I know is that's it nothing short of RIDICULOUS to have anything close to 50% of what we earn taken away from us. ESPECIALLY if you are just middle-class.

    Never mind 401k deductions...add it ALL up. thinks sales taxes, state taxes, property taxes, excecise taxes, service taxes on your phone, internet and cable television....if it was possible to add it all up...it is absolutely unacceptable.

    How can ANY middle-class American think or say it's ok for the gov't to take half of what YOU earn. I'd really love to know.

    And NOW our phuggn' gov't wantes to INCREASE IT!!

    I say, organize, protest, call, email and knock on the doors of your local politicians and tell them "Hell, no!"
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  7. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We are they are called TEA Parties, the TEA stands for Taxes Enough Already.
  8. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    Maybe I'll join so when people call me a racist, I can smile widely and flip them the bird!
  9. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Tea Party's are starting to do just that, but always remember anything at all you do to show your disaproval of the Goverment under this adimistratiom they will eventually find a way to accuse you of "Racism"

    THE RACE THING IS THEIR FAVORITE WEAPON
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  10. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Join what? Who do you call? Is there a form? Some group you donate to? What is it besides a Glenn Beck marketing tool?
  11. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    I'm not Beck follower or even a fan. But some causes are important enough to consider despite some of the people involved. I will not allow America to become a land where a moderate, middle-class income earner is having as much taken from his/her earnings as they get to keep.

    That alone is my personal cause.
  12. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's fine for Democrats, Left Wingers, Liberals, Minorities and Homosexuals to organize, march on washington, or loot and burn their houses down and demonstrate but god forbid the Conservatives start waving the flag and organizing.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  13. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey


    Sin taxes, meal tax, gas tax, registry fees, taxes from investment income, fines for not having health insurance....
  14. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    When was the last time you got a pay increase? My company like many others in the dreaded private sector cut payroll 10% last year.
  15. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Local clown: "workman's comp - which is a tax -..."

    Uh no. It's a form of insurance.

    However, I have yet to see anybody here do the homework assignment. Take your check. Take the amount you get in every check and the amount you have to pay in taxes. Write down the percentages here. (i.e., 15% income tax, 5% state tax, 6.125% OASDI [sociakl security], etc.)

    As to the argument that you should include sales taxes etc., okay, but then it doesn't cost much to live, does it? After all if your groceries are 100 bucks a week, and the tax is 5 bucks per week, your assumption is that X = 100 bucks worth of groceries. The moment that tax is eliminated, you can have 105 bucks worth for the same money, but you only need 100 bucks worth. So you only BELIEVE that you need X bucks worth of food a week; you need X-5%. Were it not for the fact that we are already running in the red, it might be a fine thing to complain bitterly that part of what you pay for groceries is sales tax. But it turns out your whole salary of $Xk should be adjusted down to $[X-5]K to account for the amount put into taxes on your groceries. If you itemize your deductions, you get back your state income tax or sales tax as a deduction from income. If not, it is part of the estimated deductions the standard deduction counts. Of course you only get back from it whatever bracket you're in, so it goes to defray the taxes paid by the better off.

    Now, to the oft-repeated question of how many people pay taxes at all, how's this:

    I'll support a recalibration in the tax-receiving population of 1%, spread across the poor of society as you seem to advocate. In return, you support the elimination of the capital gains tax, with the proviso that one pays income tax on the money one gets from capital gains. That way if you're the e-trade baby (or warren buffett, for that matter,) you pay in the tax bracket you belong to, rather than a rate like the lowest bracket pays, on your capital gains.

    Cap. gains range from as little as 8% to 20%, and in no case ever approach the 28% top tax bracket. The highest you pay for capital gains if you are not in the 28% bracket is 20%. The longer you hold the capital without realizing gains, the bigger the tax giveaway to you.

    So here is the deal: I don't care if you flip burgers, write articles, or run a corporation to make you living; it's all income.

    The best and fairest thing we could do to fix what ails us - we are operating considerably in the red, remember - is for that to be treated as income.

    Now, recognizing the complaint that the poor don't pay because they don't have a pot to piss in to begin with, I could support creating a "working poor" bracket where you begin paying in at 5% or something, beneath the current lowest bracket of 15%.

    As to the double-payment of social security as employer and employee by the self-employed, when I was self-employed you got half of that payment back as a business expense, so you're back to even. That was a long time ago, but I doubt they have eliminated this feature of the tax code.

    But all such meanderings aside: anybody want to grab a W-2 and tell me what % of your income you were able to take home? As I said, mine came to 58%. Add back in my workplace giving and both forms of retirement plan contribution, and it goes up to 65%, including all forms of taxation (state, medicare, social security, federal, miscellaneous "1000 cuts" included.)

    Remove all taxes and the country goes broke, plus you create instant rampant inflation, so you end up with the same charge for the goods everybody is chasing.

    This consideration aside, however, how much are you guys paying, those of you who get W-2s? You have the data available. How much do you take home, as a percentage?

    Or isn't that convenient to answer?

    PFnV
  16. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    I love how the Right feels lowering taxes is the Great Panacea.

    W. had two (2) major tax cuts for our nation in the past decade to historically low rates (especially if you don't work and merely live off of investments).

    Q: How did that work out for our nation's economy and stock market?

    (hint: W is the only two-term President in our country's history to leave office with a lower stock market than when he began).
  17. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    :gossip: The stock market started to decline in 2000.

    [​IMG]


    It started coming back (even post 9/11). Then something happened in 2006. Unless you want to blame the housing crisis. But, then we have to look at people like Barney Frank. :bricks:

    Obama will let the Bush tax cuts expire so we'll see how that works out. Along with the increase in taxes we've seen in the last year and new ones such as the VAT to come. My guess is it would make Cloward and Piven proud.
  18. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wait don't tell me, since it "started to" decline in 2000, the recession of 2002, the mini-recovery, and the abysmal 2008 crash were Clinton's Fault!!!

    Pretty sure your graph pretty much demonstrates the reverse of what you think it does.
  19. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    The 8 full years, from 1/20/2001 - 1/20/2009 saw a decline in the stock market.

    It also saw our nation budget going from surplus to deficit.

    The market had a short-term bump twice, given the unsustainable Bush tax cuts.

    The stock market last year got a bump due to the unsustainable Obama stimulus.

    Bush had eight years and multiple heaps of sugar thrown on the economy and he STILL had a net negative stock market over that time.

    We'll see what Obama can do with his net stock market and economic performance.

    It's funny how the Right keeps mentioning that Barney Frank had so much power over George W. Bush. Who knew?????
  20. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    My son works for a large city government - the dreaded public sector, if you will.

    Last year he lost paid vacations, paid sick days, his health insurance will be phased out in the next 3 years, he's got to take 13 unpaid mandatory leave days each year and he took a pay cut besides.

    Opps.

    My nephew is (was) a teacher - public sector - he's been a teacher for 6 years now - he got his pink slip last week. Not only will he not get tenure this year, he won't have a job at all. Federal cut backs and all.

    My niece, she's a social worker in the public school system - she, too, received her pink slip. Same reason.

    I bet they'd all love a 10% pay cut right about now.

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