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Virginia keeps trying to look stupider than it just looked

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Sep 21, 2013.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's like every time I turn around, something in Virginia is putting the state on the map in the wrong way.

    We now apparently have an active movement to celebrate The Cause by displaying big ol' confederate battle flags. You know, it's "heritage." Like when Germans fly 15-foot swastika flags. Oh wait, that's not legal? Gee I wonder why...

    VA Flaggers unveil 15-foot Confederate flag for I-95 - RVANews

    PFnV
  2. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    Aren't you the one who complained about Godwin's law in this forum, yet here you are comparing Confederates to Nazis. What a surprise. :rolleyes:
  3. scout

    scout Rookie

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    #15 Jersey

    Pretty moronic. People are in denial who think the flag represents heritage. It would be interesting to interview residents of southern states who fly the confederate flag.
  4. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Rookie

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    Re: Re: Virginia keeps trying to look stupider than it just looked

    What the heck, I'll bite. Vast overwhelming majority of Southerners didn't own slaves. Yet, they believed in secession and supported "the Cause" in The War of Northern Aggression. The Confederate Battle Flag was the symbol they fought under.
  5. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There were many, many southerners who never owned a Slave in their life nor did their family's.
    The "oh so good liberals" in todays America love to beat up on southerners and especially that flag. That flag doesn't represent slavery to many Southern Families today, to them it has a very different meaning, it is plainly "Southern"

    This guy's Flag was The Stars And Stripes "Old Glory"
    Q: Did George Washington own slaves?
    A: Yes. At age eleven he inherited ten slaves from his father. By the end of Washington's life, over three-hundred African-American slaves lived at Mount Vernon. (courtesy Mount Vernon). Link to our Washington and Slavery page.

    The Papers of George Washington
  6. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Look, it's easy for me to understand why the flag is frowned upon by non Virginians, since I'm one, and have been bred to equate the flag with support for slavery. Having read lots of books about both the revolution and civil war, I also understand that Virginians have long held a sense of independence and pride with respect to their state. To them, that flag is symbolic of that.

    I wouldn't compare the Nazi swastika to the confederate flag. The civil war was about more than just slavery (obviously it was a huge factor). The Nazi's were entirely about exterminating jews from the planet, and world domination.
  7. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Deflection, denial and revisionism. If any of you really want to know what motivated the secession then you need only look at Alexander Stephens's(Jefferson Davis's Vice President) so called Cornerstone speech.


    Stephens' March 1861 speech declared that African slavery was the "immediate cause" of secession, and that the Confederate Constitution had put to rest the "agitating questions" as to the "proper status of the negro in our form of civilization".

    The Confederate Flag has this heritage written all over it.
  8. scout

    scout Rookie

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    #15 Jersey

    I guess we could look at this from a few different perspectives. There are numerous people who fly the Confederate flag who are racist. Do not know a percentage of this; that is why I mentioned the interview, which might lead to more data.

    The second perspective is secession. Is this the history that the state wants to be emphasize? We have politicians that speak of seceding from the United States and then run for a national office giving everyone a WTF moment.

    The "cause" was about slavery. People can defend the cause as being economic, or a Northern agenda, but the bottom line is it was about owning slaves. To many people, the confederate flag symbolizes a black period of history for our country. But you go Virginia!
  9. scout

    scout Rookie

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    #15 Jersey

    Reading the Cornerstone speech illuminates how wrong people were (regardless of "name") on the equality of a human being. So, Virginia should raise a flag to remember a time frame in our history which was disgraceful due to the misguided thoughts of leaders? Heritage is great, but not the celebration of flawed and blemished periods of history.
  10. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    Ok, so because a politician said something it's fact:rolleyes:
  11. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Rookie

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    And there are racists who fly the American flag, the British Flag, or any other flag that you can think of.

    The "Cause" was the same "Cause" that led the Colonies to rebel against England, i.e. a tyrannical government.

    Let's go through the timeline. The individual colonies rebelled against England. Said colonies then adopted the Articles of Confederation. Deciding that the government established under said Articles was too weak, the states then adopted and ratified the US Constitution, a document that established a stronger, BUT STILL LIMITED centralized government.

    Entrance into this Union was VOLUNTARY and Mr. Lincoln was being a revisionist when he claimed that the Union preceded (existed before) the states.

    South Carolina's Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union spells it all out rather clearly.
  12. scout

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    #15 Jersey

    How many people think the image of the American flag represents racism? At one time, there was controversy regarding our national anthem. Some said it depicted war, same as the symbol of the eagle on the dollar bill. The big picture is American values trumps those arguments and those values are repeated throughout our history. The same cannot be said of the confederate flag.

    We can look back at the words of Lincoln and we can say he is not exactly the person portrayed by some as the hero of equal rights. What totally destroys those viewpoints is his accomplishments.

    The "cause" of the South was about slavery. Argue all you want about colonies and English rule, but the bottom line was equality. If you believe that a black person's worth is 1/3 of a white person, then you should continue in your pursuit.
  13. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Horse-crap. I've lived in Virginia most of my life. Oddly, the "cause" of folks flying the stars and bars, when sanitized per the above, always and everywhere persists alongside racist attitudes. Even when the people in question try to start every statement with "I'm not a racist but..." it's usually followed by some assertion based on some form of junk science purporting to show that the races are, in fact, not equal (and guess who's the "bad guy" or the "inferior" race in that analysis.)

    You really think you can get a few beers into members of this "flagger" group, talk to them not about "the cause" but about any other issue touching on race, and you won't hear the kneejerk racist viewpoint? They'll do it in lockstep, if they're anything like the fans of the confederacy I've grown up around.

    Now that said, I've argued precisely your point in the past, with the intro clause "to be fair" or somesuch, when I saw folks who've spent their whole life in Mass complaining about place-names in the South. I've thought a good deal on it, and I just can't keep up the go-along, get-along attitude toward the Civil War. It wasn't a "war of Northern aggression," and it was not a war of the North's choosing. Secessionists got all in a lather even though their pet fear was being left alone, and they perpetrated acts of war and treason against the Union before the Union ever fired a shot in anger. They picked that fight at Sumter, and then complained about "Northern Aggression."

    Were there no racism, the stars and bars would be a museum piece only. Its status as a rallying symbol for racists dates to the 20th century, not the 19th.

    As to Godwin's Law, I'll plead an exception, based on the multi-century horror of human bondage -- determined solely by racial identity -- that this symbol represents. It's one of the biggies. "Obama is Hitler because Hitler also had national health care"? Not so much.

    PFnV
  14. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    PF, this is a serious and honest question, but I've kinda wondered why y'all live on the VA side of the Potomac? I mean, I suppose NoVa is pretty balanced politically with a slightly left lean, but Maryland seems to politically embody your beliefs better.

    I mean, it HAS to be frustrating to be as politically active/concerned as you seem to be and live in a kinda right leaning state like Virginia....when Maryland is right across the river.

    Now...I'd believe the traffic thing. Crossing the Legion bridge is...hell...7th level
  15. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    About 10 years ago, I left a note on the windshield of a pickup truck that was emblazened with a confederate both on the front grill and on the rear windshield. Maybe I was just in a bad mood, stupid or a combination of the two...but whatever...I left my cell number on the note.

    A while later I got a call from the guy and we talked. I told him I believe it was a racist symbol and he rambled on about how he served in the armed forces to defend this country. He didn't deny being racist and I guess serving in the armed forces was supposed to give him a pass.

    Having said that, I do not believe the confederate flag should ever be compared to the nazi flag. I don't think anything should ever be compared to the nazi flag. And "maybe" some people truly believe it represents southern pride. But I find it strange people in the north don't even think about "northern pride"

    Saw a couple of pickup truck today with those wierd monstah wheels with confederate flags flying. There were young men & women in them and all I could think of was that they were on their way to a country music concert.....sure enough, I looked online and Toby Keith is playing tonight at the Comcast Center 3 miles from my house. So who knows.....
  16. IcyPatriot

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    #87 Jersey

    I know they took the flag off the General Lee car of Starsky and Hutch fame..
  17. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    Lincoln was a white supremacist who wanted all the blacks shipped back to Africa, his "accomplishments" cannot change that. The war ultimately resulted in slavery being outlawed but that doesn't change who he was. You can try to canonize him after the fact but you're just trying to use one part of history to ignore the inconvenient parts.


    Simply stating that doesn't make it so. I'm trying to figure out why the South felt compelled to leave because of slavery even though slavery was A-ok under the Federal government.

    Ok, so basically if someone doesn't agree with you they therefore approve of slavery, nice.
  18. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    Perhaps if an army invaded the North, which then raped and murdered, and burnt the North to the ground you might think differently. People on the receiving end of a beat down tend to view it differently than the one who gave it.
  19. Archeryaddict12

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    #12 Jersey

    The U.S made the slave trade illegal after 1808. So no salves could come in without being smuggled illegally. But slavery existed and the slaves bred to make more slaves. So many later slaves were born for slavery purposes. The civil war came about how slavery was deemed illegal. And the north won keeping the south in the union after the civil war.
  20. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    He probably doesn't want to pay Maryland's taxes. :D That's why my friends left and went to Virginia.

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