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Victory for Academic Freedom

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Federal appeals court rules teacher can’t be sued for bashing Christianity | The Raw Story

    A federal appeals court ruled Friday that a California teacher could not be sued for criticizing Christianity and Creationism during a college-level European history course.

    "This was a really important ruling for academic freedom," University of California constitutional scholar Erwin Chemerinsky, who took on the case pro bono, told The Orange County Register. "There has never been a precedent set for something like this before. Teachers should be able to criticize religion just like they can criticize government, business and similar groups without the fear of being sued."

    A three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals tossed out a lower court's decision, which held that teacher James Corbett violated a student’s First Amendment rights by making comments during class that were hostile to religion in general, and to Christianity in particular.

    The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals said that Corbett could not have known he was violating a constitutional right, noting there were no prior cases holding that a teacher violated the First Amendment by criticizing religion during class.
  2. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Now if only this applied to criticizing designated victim groups......
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Under academic freedom, right-wing university teachers are free to speak their mind. If you took more than a couple liberal arts courses, chances are you had at least one conservative professor. I had a history teacher who had a thorough right-wing view of WWII, a 18th Century American literature professor who glorified southern religious poetry, an economics professor who was as pro-free market as a Libertarian; I also had quite a few liberal professors, of course, but the largest number really weren't political and if anything political came up at all, it was as an aside. There are racist, homophobic, and other professors who present their points of view in academically sound ways. This is the only one I could think of off hand:

    Arthur Jensen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    but, I guarantee that at Oral Roberts University, gays don't get a fair shake.

    Just every now on then, by both the left and right, an individual is hounded out of his or her job, but by and large universities do a pretty good job about protecting academic freedom.
  4. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    I went to a liberal arts university and I don't think I encountered a conservative professor anywhere. At a technical university, perhaps, but liberal arts?

    What is a thorough right-wing view of WWII?

    That's not all that unusual, I would imagine.

    To some degree. It would dishonest to say that there isn't some degree of intimidation, though I freely admit the problem is far worse in Canada and Europe.
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I know a couple conservatives who teach at universities, one in the Boston area and one in the midwest, and one who teacher creative writing at one of the most liberal colleges in the area and doesn't allow swearing, sex, and other shocking things, etc. in students' short stories! (When she told me examples of the students stories, I held my hands to my cheeks and went, "Horrors!" She hit put with her purse.) While most professors aren't all that political, my experience (and I've taken college classes as recently as 2010) is that it's probably, of those who are political a 75% - 25% ratio in favor of liberals, and that's because more liberals than conservatives go into the education field.

    That the Emperor was the real enemy, and leaving him in power was not a full victory, and that the Japanese were thoroughly barbaric.

    I think a small handful of professors do get caught up in intimidation, but if they to stick academic arguments they are on strong ground and universities do try to protect them to some degree.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2011
  6. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Meh, if you read a lot of his threads you quickly see bashing christianity is right up his ally. :rolleyes: Personally I'm not religious but, I don't knock anyone's religion.
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Michael, not only is that a personal attack, which is against the rules, what you wrote is patently false. I have enormous respect for all religions, and have used the rules and my power as a moderator to defend Christians, as well as others, in this forum.

    I have great respect for Christianity, but when people hold it up as somehow superior to the religion of others, I won't hesitate to point out that Christianity like other religions (and Atheism) has a mixed political history. The spiritual side of religion, including Christianity, that I admire, is that for some it heals, is inspiring, gives hope, brings people peacefulness, helps people mourn, promotes kindness and charity, provides a refuge for those who suffer, brings people together, and transports people to a spiritual high.
  8. patsfan13

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    "Right Wing" teachers have basically been eliminated in most universities other than a few Christian universities. Academia is a left wing echo chamber. Not surprising since they lefties tend to avoid the marketplace for the abstract fantasies they tend to cherish. "D

    D Horowitz's book "One Party Classroom" goes into depth on this subject.
  9. patsfan13

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    I take it the prof was either in his 70's if the class was in the last 14 years or you took the class back in the early 70's before the left wing purge was complete.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2011
  10. Harry Boy

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    Try knocking Islam and watch what happens.
  11. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    OK if you say so. But, you should be aware that is not what anyone would take from the numerous posts you have against all things christian. I've seen so many from you (and that's just a fact) over the years.

    Rich Perry is downright scary; he'd try to impose a Christian version of a Sharia state.

    Radical Christian righties use mostly the military force of government to wage unnecessary wars that kill tens of thousands of innocent people.

    Yes, the facts support the case that Judeo-Christian society created a framework that allowed some awful people to rise to power.

    ...why do you ignore the fact that Christian culture has been by far the most violent?

    Our Christian populace again and again has elected leaders that have no problem killing of tens of thousands of civilians in the name of going after the bad guys.

    I don't think it's a higher standard. I think it's a narrow standard based largely on Victorian era white male Christian ethics. Conservatives live in a fantasy world where the only position is the missionary position

    It amazes me that anyone could defend that comment, but then again those who are defending it probably are straight white Christian guys, who are just not sensitized to the power of words.


    It just goes on and on and on. And I have never once read anything negative from you about any religion other than christianity.

    And if you want to get into it when you start enforcing ALL the rules of PATSFANS.COM (not Patters rules) then you can talk to me about what is and what isn't against OUR rules. :rolleyes:
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, I have issues with Rick Perry trying to impose a Christian version of the Sharia. He wants a constitutional amendment exclusively designed to limit the rights of gays. And yes, in response to criticisms by the right about Islam, the reality is that Christian culture has been terribly violent. Christian culture, not the religion. And, yes our predominantly Christian populace has done the same thing as predominantly Muslim, Hindu, atheist, and other religions. My point was always that Christianity in history and politics is not superior to any other religion, and I'm almost certain those posts are in response to stereotyping of the Muslim religion. It's easy to make a positive or negative case for any group, but the story is never that simple.

    I don't want to argue with you on the other matter. Let's agree to disagree.
  13. patsfan13

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    What policies did Perry implement in Texas that were a Christian Sharia Law?
  14. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Agreed. And since you're being so civil I'll add "bashing" may have been a poor choice of words on my part. But my perception is that you have some axe to grind with christians. As I said it seems to be the only religion you have negative comments on, and a lot of them.
  15. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    OT: yup. I went to a liberal arts college and had at least one highly conservative poli sci prof, another pretty staunch conservative history prof, another history prof who was probably more libertarian than anything (which means conservatice on some issues, liberal on others) and at least one conservative econ prof. (I was a history / econ major.)

    (were liberal profs more common? absolutely.)
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In all honesty Michael, I'm a great believer in spirituality in all it's expressions. My issue with religion is it's political manifestations. I have known many religious people in the past who opposed my lifestyle out of concern, but when religious concern is expressed by a political system, it very often takes on the form of oppression and is exploited by sadistic people.
  17. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That was in response to Perry's call for an amendment to the US Constitution to define marriage in a way that it excludes the possibility of gay marriage. Imposing that level of one version of Christian faith on the Constitution has parallels to Sharia. There is no logical basis to oppose gay marriage. The only basis for opposition is religious.
  18. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    OT: I've had this discussion with christian family members. Just food for thought that I'll throw out there, maybe it seems that way because so many issues in our nation are influenced by Christianity, and so many politicians wear their religion (almost always Christianity) on their sleeves?
  19. Harry Boy

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    Martin Luther King Jr was a Christian Minister Of God, christianity played a big role in his life and his work to free his people from the bonds of bigotry.

    King spoke often of his love for Christ The Savior, King thanked God Almighty many times for his life here on earth, the followers of King are devout loyal Christians, they are the greatest singers of the Gospel Of Jesus in the world, Mahalia Jackson spent her whole life singing the Praises And The Love Of Her Jesus Christ The Lord, her people, the Black Community of America raise their voices each and every Sunday Morning singing the Hymns of Christ and sing of their Love For Jesus, the rafters of the Baptists Churches all throuout the land tremble at the golden voices of the congregation as they harmonize their Love For The Christian God the Creator of Man, The Heavens And The Earth.

    To Insult Christianity Is To Insult These Dear People And Their Beliefs

    What A Friend We Have In Jesus
    All Our Sins And Grief To Bear
    What A Joy It Is To Carry
    Everything To God In Prayer
  20. wistahpatsfan

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    Poor Christians never get a break in AAmerica.

    None of this threads whine this much when blacks, gays or any group other than Christians/Jews gets bashed in public or in this forum. The over sensitivity of Americans-especially Christians who have all the power here- to perceived attacks on thier binky group cracks me up. Phony bullshyte if you ask me. They remind me of Jets fans. Just shut yer yappers and go on collecting wealth, social preference and political power, and see if you can make a go at it, will ya?
  21. patsfan13

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    That is the version of almost every religion and social norm throughout human history defining marriage as being between a man and woman. This is of course separate from the notion of a civil union pertaining to contractual rights between 2 adults.
  22. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    And Lord knows you wouldn't want anyone to insult any of King's "people" or his followers now, would you, Harry?

    Not when you do such a good job of it yourself.

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...dget-protests-continue-page5.html#post2485287
  23. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There have been countless social norms that have changed through history: aristocrats marrying commoners, interracial marriage, marriage between people of different faiths, marriage outside of one's ethnicity, marriage of men to sexual active women, older women marrying younger men, and so on, and that's just marriage. The only "compromise" I see is to have the government form unions and individual churches marry whomever the hell they want.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2011
  24. patsfan13

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    The point is that EVERY religion and society have recognized that marriage as practiced by humans is between members of the 2 sexes, not between same sex partners. Trying to portray that as an extreme position exclusive to Christianity is just wrong. It has been the norm in EVERY religion & society in human history. The position that a same sex relationship is the same as a hetero relationship is an extreme departure from the norm.

    Many societies have been tolerant of same sex relationships and this is a good thing, live and let live. IMO the push for the term marriage instead of seeking legal Civil Unions by 2 Adults is extreme and designed as an assault on an institution many activist on the left detest.
  25. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Every social norm I cited in my previous post was also practiced in one form or another by EVERY religion and society. It's not like marriage was created to exclude gays; it was created as a necessary and logical family contract. No one ever thought about gays in this regard one way or the other. Would Perry have been popular in the Dark Ages? Absolutely. His stand on gay marriage would have been a hit back then if it had become an issue. But, back then it was no more an issue than was marrying outside of one's class an issue. It seems to me the more important consistency with marriage was that when critical mass was reached, marriage always accommodated the changing mores.
  26. chicowalker

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    or it's practical in that "civil union" could have different meanings in different states and could be recognized or not recognized in different states, unlike how "marriage" -- the civil institution -- is supposed to be viewed across states.

    or it's principled, in that gays didn't want to be "separate but equal," as you apparently would like to see be the case


    Who on the left detests marriage as as institution? Specifics, please.

    -----------

    Of course, this issue largely goes away if the government gets out of the marriage business entirely and leaves that to religious groups or other private parties to perform as they see fit.

    But want to wager that the same groups who are opposing gay marriage would also oppose that suggestion?
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2011
  27. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Pretty weird "assault," - trying to make it encompass more rather than less.

    Usually when you try to destroy something you seek to make it disappear rather than make it bigger.
  28. patsfan13

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    You can destroy something by changing it to something it was never intended to be and change the meaning of the institution.
  29. Harry Boy

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    Jessie Jackoff and Al are a thorn in the side of the decent god fearing people they say they represent, they are glanduolis serpents oozing up from the bowels of purgatory sh!t.
  30. chicowalker

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    Never intended to be by whom?

    The insititution's "meaning" has constantly changed, through history, across regions/nations and even within the US.

    How exactly would marriage be "destroyed" by the government now sanctioning gay marriage for legal purposes?

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