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Vick Indicted!


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I feel sad about Vick....but MORE sad about the dogs and what was done to them....it's a sick sport that some seem to love..and for the 99% of others..they see it as a step above being a child predator...sick...Let's see what Goodell does..and I HOPE he will not back down at all. This is a test for him..to see how big his B***s are. I think simpoly put..he should go bye-bye for awhile until the trial is over...I wonder what he would do if instead of a star, it was the 53rd player on a team?? My gut says he would be gone for life...would he do that with Vick??

From ProFootballTalk.com a statement by the league
"We are disappointed that Michael Vick has put himself in a position where a federal grand jury has returned an indictment against him. We will continue to closely monitor developments in this case, and to cooperate with law enforcement authorities. The activities alleged are cruel, degrading and illegal. Michael Vick's guilt has not yet been proven, and we believe that all concerned should allow the legal process to determine the facts. The matter will be reviewed under the League's Personal Conduct Policy."

This statement suggests to us that the NFL plans (for now) to defer any decision regarding discipline of Mike Vick until the situation is fully resolved. And that could take a while. At the earliest, trial would be in 2008. The situation possibly could drag into 2009.
 
But let's not kid ourselves here. Nobody would give a rat's ass if this were a pirhana fighting ring or a snake fighting ring.

PETA probably would. There are laws against ****fighting too, and roosters don't bring you your slippers as far as I know.

The fact is, dogs are wonderful compainion animals that would actually lay down their lives for their humans. To treat them this way is just beyond disgusting. Vick is lower than scum. If he dropped dead tomorrow, I'd throw a party.
 
Nike is finally dropping their relationship with Vick.
 
completely understand you. perfect logic except that not animals are treated equal. think about it. its a lot different to watch a pooch suffer versus an ant or something. it's the same reason animal testing rarely occurs with monkeys and is usually done with mice. so I wouldn't say that there is no difference between different animals concerning animal cruelty.
And that's the problem. The law cannot, or should not, discriminate (we saw how that worked in the past :rolleyes: ) between different kinds of animals on this issue, mainly because the act of cruelty does not depend on who or what is on the receiving end, just as kindness to a worm isn't different from kindness to a dog.
 
As a dog-owner I wish Vick nothing but the worst. Good riddance Vick you sack of sh!t.
 
From ProFootballTalk.com a statement by the league
"We are disappointed that Michael Vick has put himself in a position where a federal grand jury has returned an indictment against him. We will continue to closely monitor developments in this case, and to cooperate with law enforcement authorities. The activities alleged are cruel, degrading and illegal. Michael Vick's guilt has not yet been proven, and we believe that all concerned should allow the legal process to determine the facts. The matter will be reviewed under the League's Personal Conduct Policy."

This statement suggests to us that the NFL plans (for now) to defer any decision regarding discipline of Mike Vick until the situation is fully resolved. And that could take a while. At the earliest, trial would be in 2008. The situation possibly could drag into 2009.
I saw that a min after I posted...I think if Goodell does zip, he's basically showing what he is.. hollow... SURE..in some cases he'll look like a tough guy..but when it takes someone with guts..he'll pass on that. If his alleged involvelment was a bit tenable then I can see his point of waiting...but it was on Vick's property...sorry..prima donna athletes who think they can get away with anythig need to learn..suspend him until after the trail and verdict..and see if he walks...but that won't happen..Maybe the fans should boo him ALL the time....with all kinds of signs...put all kinds of pressure on the commish...Nike will dump him..and quick. GOOD for them!!
 
And that's the problem. The law cannot, or should not, discriminate (we saw how that worked in the past :rolleyes: ) between different kinds of animals on this issue, mainly because the act of cruelty does not depend on who or what is on the receiving end, just as kindness to a worm isn't different from kindness to a dog.
That train of logic is not one a lot of people are going to ride, FarScapeR. Few would morally equate (1) crushing a mosquito to say (2) crushing a cat.

More to you legal points, law makes all kinds of distincts between animals, based upon whether they are owned, how much they cost, whether they are endangered, whether they are on federal land or otherwise federally protected, whether they are being a danger or nuissance, etc. Unless you disagree with all these meaningful distinctions, I don't think you can stand against preferential treatment vis a vis domesticated canines on any kind of general principle.
 
In the way that, once you look at the big picture, it establishes a very dangerous precedent that the system cannot live up to. I think he should be fined, and fined heavily. But when you start sending people to jail for dogfighting, as cruel a sport as it is, you're either on your way to full criminalization of animal endangerment in general, or very hypocritical. What if Vick bred dogs for consumption, would that be cruel enough grounds for indictment?

Edit: The indictment is strictly for animal fighting.


Actually, the law does (and should do) just that- send people who are cruel to animals to prison. There is a reason that animal cruelty laws are enacted, and there is a reason that livestock and animals bred for food are regulated differently. You do realize that companies who are in the food processing business are constantly scrutinized for their ethical practices, despite the necessity of their products to sustain the nation's food source.

Cruelty also does not matter what species is on the receiving end. If Vick were to electrocute, hang, and crush a cow, he would face the same cruelty charges. Species is irrelevant here.

Furthermore, there is no "dangerous precedent" to be set here. If in the future someone were to cite this case, it would still have to have relevance to the case at hand, and each case would still be looked at individually as well. You wouldn't see a spike in animal cruelty convictions, because frankly, the law enforcement agencies aren't waiting for a big celebrity case to establish precedent. This is as basic a case as it gets: Vick is alleged of doing some downright awful things, and if found guilty absolutely deserves to be jailed for these actions.

Finally, if I were to do the same to my dogs, a squirrel, a rabbit, or whatever animal you'd like to use as an example, I should receive time in jail as well. One thing the law is able to do here, and is set up to do, is provide a guideline for humans to fulfill our moral obligation to not provide unnecessary harm on animals.

On a personal note, this is the kind of case I would LOVE to prosecute. God willing when I pass the bar, I would love to bury a-holes who are cruel to animals and think they can get off with a fine, or community service. That is a despicable crime, and frequently, it leads to much deeper societal problems.
 
That train of logic is not one a lot of people are going to ride, FarScapeR. Few would morally equate (1) crushing a mosquito to say (2) crushing a cat.

More to you legal points, law makes all kinds of distincts between animals, based upon whether they are owned, how much they cost, whether they are endangered, whether they are on federal land or otherwise federally protected, whether they are being a danger or nuissance, etc. Unless you disagree with all these meaningful distinctions, I don't think you can stand against preferential treatment vis a vis domesticated canines on any kind of general principle.

First of all, you threw in the word "morally" which is kinda key to this whole situation. You can't legislate morals because we all have different sets of them. Many here would frown at butchering and eating dogs and cats while others, well, eat dogs and cats.

Secondly, the different classifications of animals is exactly why it is so difficult to make laws governing their treatment. Also, you haven't stated why these classifications justify the preferential treatment of canines.
 
NFLN who had downplayed this to an extent from the outset is all over it tonight. Schefter brought up the point that the indictment itself apparently includes evidence that clearly suggests that Michael lied through his teeth to the Commissioner when they had their pre draft meeting - just after he apparently had a couple of dogs killed for failure to perform...

Eventually the gambling undertones will also likely lead to some troubles with the IRS.

They had a lawyer on who represents several NFL players, and he didn't paint a very pleasant picture. Said that while Vick's team may want to stall the proceedings the other 3 indictees are entitled to a speedy trial. Says he will have to answer the indictment in court shortly (probably within days) and pointed out that the nature of the charge (conspiracy) means that the Feds only have to prove that a conspiracy to commit a crime existed in order to hold a conspirator accountable for all the actions that arise out of it. In other words, Vick can't get off if he didn't personally kill or transport a dog if as part of a plan to run an illegal enerprise like a dog fighting operation some of his associates did.

They also talked to Steve Wyche from the AJC and he said Blank and the GM McKay were in Africa on vacation and are on their way back as a result of the indictment. He thought the Commissioner might well be waiting to see how much of a disruption this proves to be for the Falcons, and if Blank ends up being the one to either suspend Michael for the PR nightmare he's creating for the franchise, or even suggest he step away to deal with his legal problems.
 
Why are people trying to argue using the very same laws whose gross ineptitude I'm trying to point out.



Michigan Dave said:
Cruelty also does not matter what species is on the receiving end. If Vick were to electrocute, hang, and crush a cow, he would face the same cruelty charges. Species is irrelevant here.
Worm? Fish? You bet species is relevant.

And aren't we being a tad facetious, seeing that we willfully castrate pets, put them to sleep when they're old/frail/sick, breed them to such a state that they become completely dependent on us, destroy them if we think they're too violent... things we would never do to our own, yet we rail on others for doing the same in a less humane manner? "Oh yes, I love my dog, but if he started acting like his ancestor, the wolf, I'd be forced to kill him. Hyuk, hyuk, hyuk..."

Once again, I'm not saying Vick shouldn't be punished for breeding dogs for dogfighting and profiting from it, but we're cruel to animals everyday, even if we make excuses for it (see eating, clothing, domestication). If the legal system was actually capable of handling this issue, it would be a crime to own a teacup chihuahua. But the legal system already has its hands full.
 
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In the way that, once you look at the big picture, it establishes a very dangerous precedent that the system cannot live up to. I think he should be fined, and fined heavily. But when you start sending people to jail for dogfighting, as cruel a sport as it is, you're either on your way to full criminalization of animal endangerment in general, or very hypocritical. What if Vick bred dogs for consumption, would that be cruel enough grounds for indictment?

Edit: The indictment is strictly for animal fighting.

Since you seem to have been living in a cave, there have been PLENTY of cases of criminal charges filed against people for animal endangerment, as well as physical abuse of animals and animal negligence. This is not something NEW that they are just starting to press charges on. This has been going on for at least the past 20 years.

If Vick had a federally licensed business for breeding dogs for consumption, no, it wouldn't be grounds for an indictment. But, it has to be licensed and inspected by the FDA.

However, your scenario has NOTHING to do with what is going on and its a pathetic attempt to justify something that isn't justifiable.
 
Why are people trying to argue using the very same laws whose gross ineptitude I'm trying to point out.




Worm? Fish? You bet species is relevant.

And aren't we being a tad facetious, seeing that we willfully castrate pets, put them to sleep when they're old/frail/sick, breed them to such a state that they become completely dependent on us, destroy them if we think they're too violent... things we would never do to our own, yet we rail on others for doing the same in a less humane manner? "Oh yes, I love my dog, but if he started acting like his ancestor, the wolf, I'd be forced to kill him. Hyuk, hyuk, hyuk..."

Once again, I'm not saying Vick shouldn't be punished for breeding dogs for dogfighting and profiting from it, but we're cruel to animals everyday, even if we make excuses for it (see eating, clothing, domestication). If the legal system was actually capable of handling this issue, it would be a crime to own a teacup chihuahua. But the legal system already has its hands full.

Your points are idiotic.

People eat animals, so what? The animals are killed as "humanely" as possible. I suppose it would be possible for the state to outlaw it but I don't think that would happen.

Society has deemed it immoral and illegal to torture animals. And no, it is not "impossible to legislate morality". That is an absolutely idiotic statment. Morality is what laws are about. It is immoral to kill someone, etc. Laws are societies' statement on what is right an wrong.

So it's not a slippery slope at all. Gee first they outlaw making dogs fight to the death, next thing you know, they'll outlaw milking cows. Or riding horses. Or putting Fido to sleep when he's old and can't move. They wouldn't because those things aren't deemed as cruel as making animals fight to the death. So the "gee that's not consistent" arguement is nonsense. Maybe YOU don't think it's consistent, but apparently society does.

I don't think you'd have many people argue that putting to sleep a 15 year old dog or putting down a vicious animal is as needlessly cruel as making animals fight to the death. But in any case, society has spoken through it's laws, as society does. Dog fighting is considered cruel. "But ant fighting should be considered cruel too then!". ******* brilliant. Write your congressman.

But some people eat dogs! In this country? If it's legal, maybe they do. But if they kill them with cruelty, it's illegal. WRite your congressman if you think it's wrong or inconsistent.

You're one of those people who like to hear themselves talk, but your points are actually stupid and make no sense.
 
NFLN who had downplayed this to an extent from the outset is all over it tonight. Schefter brought up the point that the indictment itself apparently includes evidence that clearly suggests that Michael lied through his teeth to the Commissioner when they had their pre draft meeting - just after he apparently had a couple of dogs killed for failure to perform...

Eventually the gambling undertones will also likely lead to some troubles with the IRS.

They had a lawyer on who represents several NFL players, and he didn't paint a very pleasant picture. Said that while Vick's team may want to stall the proceedings the other 3 indictees are entitled to a speedy trial. Says he will have to answer the indictment in court shortly (probably within days) and pointed out that the nature of the charge (conspiracy) means that the Feds only have to prove that a conspiracy to commit a crime existed in order to hold a conspirator accountable for all the actions that arise out of it. In other words, Vick can't get off if he didn't personally kill or transport a dog if as part of a plan to run an illegal enerprise like a dog fighting operation some of his associates did.

They also talked to Steve Wyche from the AJC and he said Blank and the GM McKay were in Africa on vacation and are on their way back as a result of the indictment. He thought the Commissioner might well be waiting to see how much of a disruption this proves to be for the Falcons, and if Blank ends up being the one to either suspend Michael for the PR nightmare he's creating for the franchise, or even suggest he step away to deal with his legal problems.

Thanks for the summary, Mo. Blank is on the hot seat with this one -- damned if he does suspend Vick and damned if he doesn't. It's getting harder to believe Vick will play this year, though. I'm wondering if Goodell and Blank are looking at each other hoping the other guy makes the move.
 
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?p=434604#post434604

Please don't label me a Vick apologist just because I question the reasoning behind American animal cruelty laws. That's an equivalent accusing someone of supporting terrorists because he or she doesn't approve of the war in Iraq.

Dogfighting is cruel and barbaric, I agree. Should Vick be held responsible and liable? I think so. Should he be suspended? Possibly and he probably will. Should he go to jail? I don't think so and I don't think he will.

But let's not kid ourselves here. Nobody would give a rat's ass if this were a pirhana fighting ring or a snake fighting ring.

How about this. I'll just label you stupid. Your poor attempts at justifying this show how you truly DON'T understand the situation and really should just keep your mouth shut.

1) Piranha don't need to be poked and prodded and half starved to attack flesh.

2) Snakes generally don't have to be poked or prodded either. As long as they sense the potential for danger or fear, they can strike.

3) The warlord in the Sudan thought that no one would care about him committing genocide. He was wrong also. Just as you are wrong regarding your poor attempts to downgrade the severity and the heinousness of the crime that Vick has been charged with.
 
This statement suggests to us that the NFL plans (for now) to defer any decision regarding discipline of Mike Vick until the situation is fully resolved. And that could take a while. At the earliest, trial would be in 2008. The situation possibly could drag into 2009.

I would be shocked if Vick saw the field this year, even in preseason--it would be a mob scene and the lead story across media (not just sports). Their first preseason game is at the Jets, my goodness, New York would go ballistic. Can you imagine the signs in the stadium? There literally could be a riot (if you don't believe that, you don't know New York). The NFL is all about its image and having protests and riots isn't in their best interest. It isn't about being fair, it's about the shield. I'd be amazed if he is even allowed to go to camp.

I expect the Falcons to politely issue a statement that they fully support him yada yada but he is excused from the team until the matter is resolved. Either that or he will be suspended for violating the conduct policy.
 
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