Use Of Draft Choices and Trades

[mgteich]

There has been talk of wasted picks by the Front Office. What a bunch of nonsense!

12 drafted players are still under the control of the patriots: 8 on the 53, 1 on the PUP, 2 on IR and 1 on the PS. In addition, we have two additional #2's next year and no 3rd or 5th. That is a signficant upgrade to the 2010 draft.

And somehow, Belichick signed and used draft choices to add a dozen more players to the 53 in addition to draftees. One binkie UDFA is on the 53; one in on the PS.

I don't think that the patriots have wasted anything in securing players for this 2009 team.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

In addition, we have two additional #2's next year and no 4th or 5th. That is a signficant upgrade to the 2010 draft.

As a minor note, they have a 4, but they don't have a 3.

 

[Disco Volante]

Even while all of the above is true, two picks were traded for Smith and Lewis who are no longer on the team, those two picks would have more value than their non-existence.

 

[IcyPatriot]

As a minor note, they have a 4, but they don't have a 3.

We'll have several by 5:00 on draft day ... I am sure of it.

 

[mgteich]

Correct; I will fix.

As a minor note, they have a 4, but they don't have a 3.

 

[jeffbiologist]

Like BB says, I have no problem with them MAKING mistakes as long as they LEARN from them. These are NOT training camp fodder as some have suggested, is you look at the roster there are ALOT of guys on there that werent picked in rounds 1-4 including TB. The problem is finding PLAY MAKERS in the lower rounds is next to impossible, and at some point some of these guys are going to be asked to make em. I think the cook is buying the groceries from the wrong stores, and as I say every day....know your role.

 

[patsfan13]

Even while all of the above is true, two picks were traded for Smith and Lewis who are no longer on the team, those two picks would have more value than their non-existence.

Lewis was beaten out of a position by an UDFA & a 7rd pick (Nunn & Edleman), Smith lost out to a FA pickup (Baker) there was no way before camp to tell who would create a roster spot for themselves. Competition dictates tha some good player will not make the roster, competition also ensures a stronger roster.


A strong roster is the goal, Picks FA signings UDFA, doesn't matter where the talent comes from so long as a strong roster is the result.

 

[mgcolby]

Even while all of the above is true, two picks were traded for Smith and Lewis who are no longer on the team, those two picks would have more value than their non-existence.

They are not "non-existent" they were traded for two NFL players. They took two fifth's and moved them up a year to provide depth and competition at two positions. Both players were veterens that have been on NFL rosters. Unfortunately, neither made the team. But that doesn't mean they are non-existent. How is that any different then two picks not making the team next year? It isn't! If anything two fifth rounders have less of a chance making it then two guys who have been on NFL rosters.

Can you guarantee both 5th round picks make the squad next season? Nope, you can't, so your argument is null and void.

 

[BradyFTW!]

We can't be all pumped about the meritocracy of Belichick's training camps and how the best players make it, but then also get mad when an UDFA or 7th beats out a draft pick or someone we traded a pick for.

The reason why Belichick 'wastes' so many picks is because, unlike most FOs, he cares more about fielding the best team than covering his ass. A lot of teams will give a spot to a guy that they gave up a pick for, even if the UDFA or 7th rounder is clearly better. Why? So that nobody can complain that they wasted the pick.

I'll take Belichick's approach, 'wasted picks' and all, any day.

 

[mgteich]

I agree with your conclusions but not your analysis.

LEWIS didn't get beaten out for a roster spot by Edelman and Nunn. First, Nunn didn't make the roster. Lewis did, as a STER/WR as did Aiken. Lewis was replaced today by another STer.

SMITH did NOT get beaten out for a roster spot by BAKER. Baker was signed for three years at a reasonable bonus and salary. He was always here to stay, unless he was aweful. One could argue that Smith was beaten out by Watson since at Smith's alary he really wasn't competing for the #3 spot. However, we were talking about Smith competing with Thomas for the #3. So, Smith was also beaten out by Matthews for the #3 spot.


QUOTE=patsfan13;1490938]Lewis was beaten out of a position by an UDFA & a 7rd pick (Nunn & Edleman), Smith lost out to a FA pickup (Baker) there was no way before camp to tell who would create a roster spot for themselves. Competition dictates tha some good player will not make the roster, competition also ensures a stronger roster.


A strong roster is the goal, Picks FA signings UDFA, doesn't matter where the talent comes from so long as a strong roster is the result.[/QUOTE]

 

[mcmurtry86]

The Pats had a better chance of getting value from Alex Smith and/or Greg Lewis than the guys they would have drafted with the picks they gave up. Despite the fact that neither made the opening day roster, they are still somewhat productive NFL players - which is more than you can say for the vast majority of 4th-7th round picks.

The point of draft picks is to add players to your roster, which is exactly what they did with Smith and Lewis. The fact that neither worked out is irrelevant to whether or not those were good moves.

 

[Bostonian1962]

Lewis was beaten out of a position by an UDFA & a 7rd pick (Nunn & Edleman), Smith lost out to a FA pickup (Baker) there was no way before camp to tell who would create a roster spot for themselves. Competition dictates tha some good player will not make the roster, competition also ensures a stronger roster.


A strong roster is the goal, Picks FA signings UDFA, doesn't matter where the talent comes from so long as a strong roster is the result.

Those are good points. However, that's not the purest way to look at this. Because, if Alex Smith looked good in camp like Baker did, they would have kept both. Same thing with Lewis. If he showed he was worthy of the draft pick they gave up for him, he'd still be on the team. They might be playing salary games on the Lewis thing, and could re-sign him if another team doesn't, but that's another issue..............................

And the Alex Smith situation was horrible. They gave up a 5th round pick for a player that did not look good at all in preseason. In fact, not only did they cut him, but they gave up another draft pick to trade for another TE to take a roster spot. If TE Matthews gets cut, they'll be out yet another draft pick.

I'm not piling on BB, because I love the guy. I'm just not going to try to sugar coat the several draft picks they've given up for players that couldn't play over the last few years. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

I do appreciate that when the Gabriels of the world show they can't play, he doesn't keep them just because he gave up a draft pick. However, that doesn't mean we can't be bummed that we're giving up draft picks that we could otherwise use to draft young talent.

Isn't it interesting that the same braintrust saying "draft Edelman, and sign Nunn", are the same ones saying "gotta trade for Lewis" at WR? And, the same folks saying "sign Baker at TE", are the same ones saying "trade for Alex Smith".

 

[convertedpatsfan]

We can't be all pumped about the meritocracy of Belichick's training camps and how the best players make it, but then also get mad when an UDFA or 7th beats out a draft pick or someone we traded a pick for.

The reason why Belichick 'wastes' so many picks is because, unlike most FOs, he cares more about fielding the best team than covering his ass. A lot of teams will give a spot to a guy that they gave up a pick for, even if the UDFA or 7th rounder is clearly better. Why? So that nobody can complain that they wasted the pick.

I'll take Belichick's approach, 'wasted picks' and all, any day.

Well said.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I usually disagree with everything the Pats FO does, but I don't see the big deal with Alex Smith and Greg Lewis. I knew Lewis wasn't going to make the team because he's been a mediocre player at best when he was with the Eagles. In fact, his best games came against New England. However, I felt as though Smith had a chance to make the team considering he was a starting TE with the Bucs last season. Meanwhile, had the Pats cut Derrick Burgess, all hell would break loose.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I usually disagree with everything the Pats FO does.

If you disagree with just about everything that the winningest team of the decade does, then what does that say about you?

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

If you disagree with just about everything that the winningest team of the decade does, then what does that say about you?

A non kool-aid drinker? Seriously, they haven't won any super bowls since '04, have they? So let me clarify me statement. Since '04, I haven't agreed with what the Pats FO has done. They've been missing on a lot of recent draft picks and they rely too much on cheap-stop gap free agents.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Those are good points. However, that's not the purest way to look at this. Because, if Alex Smith looked good in camp like Baker did, they would have kept both. Same thing with Lewis. If he showed he was worthy of the draft pick they gave up for him, he'd still be on the team. They might be playing salary games on the Lewis thing, and could re-sign him if another team doesn't, but that's another issue..............................

And the Alex Smith situation was horrible. They gave up a 5th round pick for a player that did not look good at all in preseason. In fact, not only did they cut him, but they gave up another draft pick to trade for another TE to take a roster spot. If TE Matthews gets cut, they'll be out yet another draft pick.

I'm not piling on BB, because I love the guy. I'm just not going to try to sugar coat the several draft picks they've given up for players that couldn't play over the last few years. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

I do appreciate that when the Gabriels of the world show they can't play, he doesn't keep them just because he gave up a draft pick. However, that doesn't mean we can't be bummed that we're giving up draft picks that we could otherwise use to draft young talent.

Isn't it interesting that the same braintrust saying "draft Edelman, and sign Nunn", are the same ones saying "gotta trade for Lewis" at WR? And, the same folks saying "sign Baker at TE", are the same ones saying "trade for Alex Smith".

I don't think this is the "purest" way of looking at things either. It's easy to judge moves after we see the end result. But the FO doesn't get that benefit.

Player moves are not simple right/wrong questions. Every move comes with some risk. The key is to measure the risk, the potential reward, and the cost. It's actually really helpful to think about it like poker.

Obviously there are good hands and bad hands, but sometimes good hands loses by sheer luck. Sure, it sucks, but it was worth the risk. At the same time, sometimes you have a crappy hand, but it makes perfect sense to play it because the potential payout is worth way more than what you had to put in.

Randy Moss is a great example. Sure, now we see it was a great deal, but at the time, there were a lot of question marks about his attitude and his desire, and also if he had lost a step in Oakland. But we had the chance to acquire a potential HOF receiver in his prime for a 4th round choice. Even if it didn't work out, wouldn't it have been worth the gamble?

Had we kept Lewis, a 5th round pick would be pretty fair for a proven NFL WR to be our 4th receiver. A 5th wound have been pretty fair for a potential starting/back-up tight end like Smith too. It didn't work out, but it was worth the risk.

You don't get to win every hand you play, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't continue to take chances.

 

[captain stone]

There has been talk of wasted picks by the Front Office. What a bunch of nonsense!

Bill has just wasted 2 5th-rounders on 2 guys who were cut before either of them played even 1 regular-season game for us; and some people (such as I) feared that those 2 trades were for only JAG-level non-difference-makers, the very day those trades were made.

How in the world is that fact in any way nonsensical?

 

[mgteich]

Compare the use of draft choices with other teams. How many other teams have 12 of their 2009 draft choices on their roster, injury list and Practice Squad?

Bill has just wasted 2 5th-rounders on 2 guys who were cut before either of them played even 1 regular-season game for us; and some people (such as I) feared that those 2 trades were for only JAG-level non-difference-makers, the very day those trades were made.

How in the world is that fact in any way nonsensical?

 

[patfanken]

Bill has just wasted 2 5th-rounders on 2 guys who were cut before either of them played even 1 regular-season game for us; and some people (such as I) feared that those 2 trades were for only JAG-level non-difference-makers, the very day those trades were made.

How in the world is that fact in any way nonsensical?

If those picks had been kept, it would have meant the Pats would have had FOURTEEN picks last season. That's a HUGE waste of assets. At it was, its amazing we've kept 10 of the 12 in the system. Next season we currently have 8 picks. It will probably be more by next April. WHY not use picks to potentially help your team....if you are smart enough to have extra's to spare.

Personally I think Lewis' release has more to say about Edelman's and Nunns surprising development, and the likelihood that Tate will be ready to play THIS year, than Lewis playing worse than expected. Smith was a casualty of the fact HIS skills were duplicated by Watson and Baker, and he simply wasn't the blocking TE BB that BB finally determined was needed as the 3rd TE.