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US-Centric Misconceptions on Capitalism, Health/Medicine, Education

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by maverick4, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    1. We are not the richest. The EU has a significantly higher GDP than the US does. Our system of 'capitalism' is also essentially socialism for only the rich. In fact, China right now is more purely capitalist than the US is right now.

    2. We do not have the best, nor the most efficient health/medical system. The EU spends 9% of GDP on health care, compared to 15% of US GDP. Europeans also live longer than Americans, despite spending significantly less of GDP.

    3. We do not have the best educational systems. From elementary school, middle school, high school, and even college, our students lag behind our European and Asian counterparts. The only edge we have are the half dozen top research universities funded significantly by the government.

    4. One truth, however, is that we do have the best military, and the most blood on our hands of anybody since WWII. Even going back before WWII, it could be made the the genocide of Native Americans was as worse if not worse than any other event in the past 500 years.
  2. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Actually, we spend the most on our military but that doesn't necessary mean we're the best.

    It depends on how you mean the word "best," of course.

    We're not the largest - not by a long shot. China's all over us on sheer numbers of military personnel. We're not even #2 on that list - India is....nor are we #s 3, 4 or 5.

    World Top Ten Countries With Largest Armies

    The British Armed Forces are often recognized as being the best trained military forces world-wide.

    British Armed Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Israel is the only country in the world with an operational anti-ballistic missile defense system on the national level. Their weapons are also among the most sophisticated in the world with many of them being developed right in Israel.

    Israel Defense Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  3. PatsFanInVa

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    Stand by for anti-Israeli ("I really really am not anti-semitic too") rant on behalf of Mav Gibson.
  4. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    Many of your facts are innaccurate. No matter, maybe you ought to accompany BO and appologize to the rest of the world for America, since it's such a terrible country.
  5. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I think it is pretty amazing how so many people are risking their life and limb to move into the United States while some people who are already here have nothing but bad things to say about it (yet they refuse to leave).
  6. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Well, his first "fact" is technically accurate but extremely misleading (although I disagree that a 5% higher GDP is considered "significant"). Setting aside the fact that he is comparing 1 nation to an organization that represents 27 nations, an interesting fact is the U.S. has a higher per-capita GDP over the EU by roughly 50%.

    When an organization with 500 million citizens barely edges out the U.S. with our 300 million citizens, I do not see that as evidence of a systematic shortcoming in America.

    Another interesting fact is our GDP is about 4 times that of China, and about 14 times per capita.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
  7. DarrylS

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    What we are good at is developing huge government, complete with many regulations and the accompanying large expenditures necessary to develop such..

    We are also good at maintaining the military industrial complex with little oversight despite their continual fraud, misconduct and sometimes faulty products... would think that congress and the media would be as vigilant toward them demanding oversight and accountability as they are about ACORN... in Iraq Blackwater overcharged 55 million for security services they did not perform... ACORN has gotten 53 Million since 1993, yet we are vigilant over what amounts to an "entrapment' Video... Blackwater was given a contract to supply fuel in Iraq, so instead of being happy with the contract they overcharged the US for fuel... they have had scandal after scandal, now their founder Erik Prince, a native of hollland, is implicated in murder... yet there is no outrage, only peaceful acceptance of the crimes of those who steal from the government only to get more and more...

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6740735.ece


    Was thinking the other day about an ad for Boeing that I saw advocating for the air fuel tanker bids... who pays for the ad???, who pays for the lobbyists???... we do as the american taxpayer, seems very perverse to me, yet their is no outrage... as long as the military industrial complex continues to rule inside the beltway,we will be in serious trouble.. spend time worrrying about ACORN, all the while companies of Xe now have a standing army of 20,000 men...
  8. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    If you're so upset about Blackwater and ACORN, why don't you start your own thread instead of hijacking someone elses? Although I am sorry to see you get your panties tied in a knot because all the ACORN corruption is finally being exposed - yes, a great reason to get all huffy.
  9. DarrylS

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    If you do not see the connection you are wearing the rightie blinders once again.. the duplicity and hypocrisy is obvious, there is a great push to do away with ACORN...all the while the defense contractors, defraud, kill and commit a myriad of crimes... get a free pass.. if that is not a misception on capitalism, not quite sure what is... the very basic values of our society are brought to light.. those with power will never let it go,all the while those will less power will get trampled over... equal application of the law is a misconception of all misconceptions.

    I have no problem with ACORN, getting exposed... my problem is the selective effort while those in the military industrial complex get a pass.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  10. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    It's simple we need the military industrial complex. We don't need organizations such as acorn.
  11. DarrylS

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    Do we need all the fraud, crimes and illegal activity that goes along with it?? Or maybe you are comfortable with the lie that there is an equal application of the law??

    We need Xe, APF, Wackenhut, Haliburton and all the rest?? If their hallmark was honesty and integrity maybe, but as they stand right now, no they are not needed.
  12. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    At the rate we're going they are the only industry we'll have left. If we required 100% honesty and integrity from all industries and corporations. We would be waiting a long time for a whole lot of nothing.
  13. Real World

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    The EU isn't a country. I hate to break that to you. China...hahahahaha

    2) Life expectancy. hahahahahahaha

    3) Now you're on to something. You can thank the gubmit indoctrination camps known as US public schools.

    4) We have the best military. We also spend retarded money on it. Way too much IMO. We should be isolationists. We should worry about the US, and only the US. Of course, one problem with all that blood we carry on our hands, is that it's helped free, or maintain freedom, for pretty much the entire world, at one time or another. No one is perfect you know. Our imperfection doesn't come without significant contributions.
  14. Real World

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    Do you hate this country or something? You sound like someone who simply wanted to say something negative about the military here. Clearly this isn't something you understand all that well (not that I'm some expert mind you. Toe to toe, no country on the planet could match blows with us. China does have numbers. However, quantity doesn't equal quality. Oh, and as for the Brits who I respect tremendously, have you seen how they handled southern Iraq? Best trained my arse.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  15. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    This is well written. I didn't respond to the "blood on our hands" comment because I though it was too ignorant of a statement to respond to. Either the original poster is so ignorant he has never heard of never heard of Cambodia, Bosnia, Bangladesh, Rwanda and Darfur or he is just hell bent on advancing an "America sucks" agenda.
  16. Real World

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    I can understand people not liking our interventionalist agenda. I personally don't like it either. There is some validity to the point about our having blood on our hands. The flip to that though, is the blood we've spent securing liberty, and freedom across the globe. I think we'd all prefer that our might is used as righteously as possible. The problem is that we all don't see righteousness through the same set of eyes. Regardless, I can understand the sentiment of some, but when people only point to the negatives, it points to an agenda IMO.
  17. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Her response was so poorly written and so poorly supported, that I honestly could not figure out if she was being serious or sarcastic. I was tempted to respond with the following:

    The United States is far and away seen as the best military in the world.

    United States armed forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  18. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Really? Why then, pray tell, have we not won a war since WWII? It's not for lack of trying, I don't think.

    About as well as we have. We're still there too, remember?

    I'm neither pro-military or anti-military. What I am is truthful. Our military is good, I'm not doubting that or arguing that - all I'm saying is you can't make blanket statements without some sort of back-up and not expect to have them challenged. We waste alot of money, we don't take good care of the military we do have - we abandon them when they come home, we make promises we don't keep, we send them into war without proper equipment, we discriminate against women, we keep gays under wraps, we hire independant contractors and expect them to take the place of our own forces, we exhaust our troops, mentally and physically, but sending them back into combat situations over and over again with little or no regard for their well-being, we spend a good deal of cash, time and effort which does not necessarily get spent in the right place.

    It's also interesting that most of you who are so very quick to praise our military are also the same ones who are so quick to condemn their commander-in-chief.
  19. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    We have won three wars since WW2: The Cold War and the The First Gulf War were outright wins, pure and simple. We also won the Second Gulf War. Yes, right now we are bogged down in nation building, but it certainly was still a win considering we got rid of Hussein and his government.

    We could also say we won the War in Afghanistan, but I am not counting that since I am not sure it rises to the level of "war." Afghanistan wasn't even an organized country when we arrived so for the sake of argument I will consider it more a military maneuver instead of a war.

    Korea was a stalemate, Vietnam was a loss. Unfortunately I don't have a spare 4 hours available to write a thesis on precisely why those results are as they are.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  20. DarrylS

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    Bogged down in nation building... have any more of that kool aid, Mr. Jones???

    Please tell us your esteemed definition of "level of war", cannot wait to be enlightened on this one:rolleyes:

    Believe us most of us do not want to hear 4 hours of history book regurgitation and revisionist history... so spare us all the grief.
  21. PatsFanInVa

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    No, if she "hated" this country, she'd pick on its unique institutions, or those that started here: Our constitutional protections, separation of church and state, the proposition that all men are created equal. Things like that. Everybody's got a military. To take exception to the statement that the US military is the best in the world has nothing to do with hating the country; it's objectively examining a statement often made but never questioned.

    I think it's fruitless myself. Who's going to beat us in a war? Nobody. How do you separate the nukes and the gadgets from some intrinsic "bestness"? You really can't. We train to fight with what we have available, and if those were flint knives we would train to fight with flint knives. Every nation with one or another "best" aspect would lay claim to it: One nation might decide it has far and away the best flint knappers; another nation would declare that its flint-knife wielders were the bravest and most ready to sacrifice; another would declare that it always had the craftiest and best ways to deploy its flint-knife wielders; another would point to its rigorous training in flint-knife martial arts. And so on.

    It is what it is. To say whether we've won wars is to argue about the notion of victory, outside of the "total war" model of WWII. As I recall in Gulf War I we and a coalition of allies achieved our stated objectives. We won, left, and reinstalled our Quwaiti clients. We lost Vietnam, and Korea was a tie (still in overtime, technically.) We kicked the crap out of that medical school too. So I certainly disagree with the Mrs. on that count.

    Saying the "cold war" was "won" is problematic for two reasons:

    1. It wasn't a war. It was shorthand for a long period of threatening nuclear war between two superpowers while we sponsored proxy wars between two camps of satellite nations and groups (e.g., we sponsored the Taliban against them, they sponsored various frentes in Central America, just as a couple of examples.)

    2. We didn't win it. They went broke and suffered the breakup of their multinational state into regions. We've been shown to be broke as well, although we had better credit. That part of the equation is still unfolding. As to our polity, it seems healthy despite the best efforts of the right to cantonize the nation and deligitimize its elected leadership.

    But these are ancillary points. Regardless of what you think of how you define "victory" in the cold war, it certainly wasn't "what we trained for at Lejeune, Ooorah." It was political through and through with very little active involvement on the part of the military. It just doesn't belong in the discussion, retarded as the discussion itself -- and the assertion leading thereto -- may be.

    PFnV
  22. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    The problem has been our objectives. From the gulf war to Afghanistan and of course Iraq in between. Their objectives have render them as nothing more than military skirmishes. You can't achieve a favorable outcome in the publics eye, if you haven't put forth clear concise objectives. We aren't at war but we engaged in military operations, sh*t or get off the pot!
  23. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I honestly do not know what the point is you are trying to make here, so I cannot respond. Winning the Second Iraq War was actually pretty easy - Baghdad fell in about 3 weeks. Winning the peace has been the tough part.
    I don't know why you feel the need to be so snide. This is just a personal opinion of mine that Afghanistan doesn't rise to the level of "war" because, as I explained, Afghanistan wasn't even really a country at the time, just a bunch of unorganized insurgent groups.
    Have I done somthing to upset you here, or is this just residual hard feelings from the Bible-revision thread? You should learn how to disagree without being so disagreeable, my friend.
  24. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    This is an excellent point. In the "old days" two countries would declare war against each other, fight it out, and one side would sign a peace treaty or surrender or withdraw their forces or whatever. These days, things are all much more vague. It is a matter of objectives, insurgents, etc, etc.

    I disagree with your interpretation of the Cold War because there may not have been any formal surrender, but there was certainly a Soviet withdrawl of troops from Eastern Europe, and the complete breakup of the USSR as a nation. But, obviously, you are correct in that it was not a conventional war with bullets and bombs and the like.
  25. DarrylS

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    Good job at not answering the question posed regarding nation building, that is not what we did or are doing in Iraq... we destroyed a nation under false pretenses.... no we are bogged down with just as many civilian contractors as we have men in uniform, the reality is we never should have gone into that country, let alone destroy the infrastructure...

    You develop standards, i.e. level of war, based on your perception, not on any facts except those you revel in.. whether you believe things or not is not the point, Afghanistan is a country and recognized as such..

    I do not take this personal and there are no hard feelings, just folks like you regurgitate some tales they learn from history books... and believe all the crap that they ingest... this is much more to all of these stories than meet the eye... still pretty much that our mission in the Mid East is nation building, have not heard that lie in a very long time...
  26. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    The only question you asked was "have any more of that kool aid, Mr. Jones???" If you have a serious question you would like me to answer, please feel free to ask and I will do my best. But it is silly to ask "have any more of that kool aid, Mr. Jones???" and then accuse me of dodging a question.
    Maybe you're right and maybe you're wrong, but that's irrelevant to the point I was making. We won the war in Iraq, we just aren't winning the peace.
    That's just not true. At the time, Afghanistan had no seat of government, no representation in the United Nations, no diplomatic relations and were recognized as a nation by only 3 countries.

    Since 3 countries recognized Afghanistan as an actual nation and 190 countries (including all 5 on the U.N. Security Council) did not, I'll side with the 190. But if you want to take the side of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, then feel free.

    With all due respect, you spend an awful lot of time acting like you're smarter than everyone in here and just as much time demonstrating the opposite.
    With all due respect, you have a tendency to put words in my mouth and then respond to what you're pretending I've said instead of what I actually said. I didn't say our mission in the Middle East was "nation building" I said we are currently bogged down in nation building. There's a significant difference in those two statements.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  27. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    5% of GDP is a HUGE number, are you kidding?

    How can you claim we have the best healthcare in the world, when dozens of other nations have citizens who live far longer than we do, and at a significant less cost as a % of GDP?
  28. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    The biggest hypocrisy is claiming we try to spread freedom or democracy. We have toppled or assassinated over a dozen democratically leaders all over the world (especially in South America) in the past six decades, against those who don't bow down to American interests. We have helped, supplied, and supported vicious dictators all over the world who advance American interests.

    We act based on pure cold self interest in maintaining global hegemony, at all costs.

    I have a lot more respect for those who can admit this truth, and be fine with it, than those masses who actually don't have any idea about their own country's behavior around the globe.
  29. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I respectfully disagree. You wrote "The EU has a significantly higher GDP than the US does" but fact is that the U.S. has 95% the PPP GDP of the E.U. I just don't consider a 5% different to be "significantly higher" or a "HUGE number".

    Now, the difference between the U.S. and China is a "HUGE number". But 5%? Not so much.
    I'll answer this question when you show me where I claimed America has the best healthcare in the world, so that I may better explain the context of any such statement you are asking me to expand upon.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  30. DarrylS

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    If you continually say with all due respect,one gets the impression that you are not very serious... just patronizing... keep reading those history books though... it is not about knowledge, just the recognition that those who speak in black and white terms.. often do not begin to understand the grey, where most of the truth lies...

    You made up a phrase, level of war, that has absolutely no meaning and no context to justify your argument... whether or not Afghanistan met your criteria as a nation, is a semantical argument at best, it has boundaries and contains a unique set of people who have lived there for a long time... perhaps it does not meet your standard of civility, but who are you to judge and impose your values.. that often becomes the issue of america, we know what is best for some people.. in reality we do not.

    We are not nation building, unless you call cleaning up after our own destruction... the irony is striking, we go in to a country based on lies, then we destroy the infrastructure.. and now we have to rebuild it.. amongst graft, fraud and continual corruption by our defense contractors.. it is absurd. All the while those who suffer most, women and children, have done the least to warrant this response.

    The whole thing about winning the peace is a bunch of crap, thank you John Kerry.. the reality is we disturbed the Iraqi peace under false pretenses and a maelstrom ensued... we have spent billions upon billions there, after toppling a stable regime.. no one liked Hussein, but he was an excellent buffer and offered a modicum of stability.. our actions have destabilized the mideast and in reality done nothing to help the Iraqi people, least of all the situation in the mideast.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009

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