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Upgrading the LT position....

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by BlueThunder, Jun 16, 2011.

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  1. BlueThunder

    BlueThunder Rookie

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  2. Rob0729

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    What is there to ponder? That PFF is a crappy site and has no purpose for a discussion on player evaluation. If they thought Tom Brady was the 33rd best player in the NFL last year, they probably thought Matt Light was the 97,565th.

    Sorry, but I don't take any analysis seriously that is done through the TV broadcast rather than the "All 22" no matter how good the analyst is. And the PFF analysts aren't that good to begin with.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  3. BradyManny

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    All this means is that some guy who has never played football watched Matt Light on a given play and tried to guess whether he did or did not do his job.

    From there, he scored him on a scale of -2 to 2.

    From there, he drew conclusions about Matt Light's play.

    Let's leave the conclusion-drawing to Belichick, please. If Light is amenable to coming back for a short-term deal, I'm sure Belichick would take him. The fact is that Light can probably get more money and more years elsewhere, so it might be the end of the road for him as a Patriot.

    It's funny how PFF can say Brady is a product of the players around him yet they rarely rank those players highly. I'm still waiting for their "normalized" (strength of opponent adjusted) data for quarterbacks. I guarantee we'll never get that since it would need to put Brady at the top given he faced a historically difficult schedule of passing defenses when his peers (Manning, Rivers) faced quite the opposite.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  4. PatsWickedPissah

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    Could Ian develop a feature that would visibly topic flag any citation of PFF, sorta like the virus malware site warning that I get when I visit certain sites with pictures of young...well, you know?
  5. Deus Irae

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    Or, perhaps, have one large thread which merges all the PFF stuff together. it would make it much easier to ignore.
  6. BlueThunder

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    hmmm...hurries, hits and sacks seems pretty objective to me.....

    If everyone is graded by the same criteria I'm not sure why the uproar here....

    Vollmer is graded as 9th best RT .....

    If the OT is supposed to be getting help from the TE or OG on a particular play, that may be a problem....but Mankins and Crumpler on the left side helping Light should be a plus.....

    just sayin
  7. townes

    townes Rookie

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    I'm guessing that the objections raised have to do with the credibility of any sight that claims Kareem Mackenzie is a better player than Tom Brady.
  8. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Because the people doing the grading are not qualified to do said grading. Where did they get their hurries, hits, sacks stats from? If it's legitimate stats, then sure, but then again, I'm sure footballoutsiders has the same stats with better analysis and more in-depth metrics. PFF is pretty much useless.
  9. BlueThunder

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    Totally agree there ;)

    But different criteria were used to evaluate the LT/RT positions...

    I guess if the data is bogus, then there's a case....

    Are there any other sites that rate the OL...shoot me a link....

    BTW..I checked out Footballoutsiders and they have run blocking but not pass blocking criteria for OL
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  10. Rob0729

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    Actually, hurries, hits, and sacks can be very subjective. Many times two linemen will engage a defensive player and the analyst has to assign responsibility to one of them. Many times an OLB or DE will come free, not because the LT isn't doing his job but someone somewhere else down the line lets a defender come through unblocked and the LT has to break from his assignment to get that defender because he has a better shot at a QB. I would argue that most stats having to do with the offensive line is subjective.

    Also, PFF use the television broadcast of the games, not the "All 22" that means it is very difficult to compile stats because the television broadcast rarely focuses on the o-line in real time and sporatically does it on replay.
  11. Rob0729

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    Or Justin Smith the second best player in the NFL for 2010. Ironically, the best player on his team (Patrick Willis) was ranked 24th.
  12. BlueThunder

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    Thanks for the explanation Rob ;)
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  13. Deus Irae

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    This was happening a lot with Connolly, especially at the start of the year. Light and Koppen looked far worse than they were actually playing, because they were forced to cover for Connolly a lot. Connolly's play was more solid on the right side, whether do to that being his preference, or due to having gotten more game experience prior to the switch.

    You're overrating the "all 22" requirement for line play, IMO.
  14. Rob0729

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    The "All 22" isn't perfect, but it is far more effective for evaluation. On running plays, they focus on the RB. On passing plays, they focus on the QB until he throws the ball. Many times in both cases, an o-lineman or two or even three are out of frame.

    I'm not really overrating the "All 22". I am actually just criticizing the TV broadcast as an evaluation tool. At least in the "All 22" you can see every player on the field throughout the entire play.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  15. BlueThunder

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    Get BB's secret tapes for your eval :D
  16. Deus Irae

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    You don't need to see all 22 for most line analysis. Broadcast TV is generally adequate to figure out what was going on, within the understood bounds of not knowing the specific play call, especially today, with multiple angles being used on seemingly every replay.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  17. BradyManny

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    You could argue OL play is the only thing you can grade from the TV tape.

    But even then, in PFF's case, the people watching it don't know what they're looking for.

    Still, without coaches tape, even with OL play you are missing a piece of the puzzle. Belichick has explicitly called the TV tape worthless when it comes to scouting, something the folks at PFF probably don't want to hear.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  18. Rob0729

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    I'd agree with that. That is the problem with the broadcast is that you don't see the whole picture and a lot of times looks can be deceiving on the broadcast. The most common case of that is on defense where the defender who gets to the ball first is usually blamed for giving up a big play even when you look at the "All 22" and you will see it was a blown coverage from another player.

    Unless you can see the player and everyone around them for the entire play on the broadcast, many times what you see isn't what really happened. I know going to the game you get a much different perspective than when you watch the same play on the TV. I do agree that is less with OL than say DBs or receivers, but still happens.
  19. Deus Irae

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    Well, I'd argue that and DB play in man coverage when the cameraman follows the routes, but I'm with you here.

    Absolutely with you on this.

    I think BB was exaggerating a bit.
  20. BaltimorePatsFan

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    Matt Light may not be the best LT in the NFL but he is still the best tackle that the Pats have right now. Vollmer at LT would have struggled mightily.
  21. AndyJohnson

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    There is no reliability in analysis done by people who do not know what they are looking at.
  22. AndyJohnson

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    Yeah right, the LT will ignore his man to help the LG:rolleyes:
    We get that you have something against Connolly, if you think you are right why do you need to make things up?
  23. supafly

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    I agree that there would certainly be a decent learning curve involved with Vollmer at LT, but if that's what it comes down to then I think we will fine. I don't know what everyone thinks, but there's always the possibility that Solder could be thrown into the fire immediately, while keeping Vollmer at RT, as to not upset 2 positions. I'm sure Belichick will adjust accordingly with quicker passes, more runs, keeping a TE or 2 :) on that side, etc. This isn't his first time dealing with an issue like this, far from it...

    Regardless, I do hope that Light stays, just b/c he is the most efficient right now, and has the experience etc. But we all said we'd rather have Mankins sign if it was one or the other, so I'd much rather see that IF indeed it ends up being one or the other (which we have nothing to base that on).
  24. RayClay

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    Except Vollmer has played left tackle and did not struggle mightily.

    You're saying with additional experience he will?
  25. spacecrime

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    I think he means that without someone like Ben Watson being used as a sixth Olinesman to Vollmer's left every play, Vollmer might not be so effective.

    Nothing wrong with Matt Light. I don't think he'll be back, but there is no reason why a rookie can't start at LT. Light did.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  26. RayClay

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    Of course Vollmer was a raw rookie, not having played much football, but i thought he was very surprising.

    Hope you're not implying Light didn't have lots of tight end help during his career.

    Not saying raw rookie beats seasoned veteran, but to say he would struggle mightily with two years under his belt does a real disservice to the level he played and plays at for someone still learning.
  27. ay-yo

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    Regardless of your thoughts on PFF I'd like to hear how some poster think Matt Light ranks among other LT in the League. This isn't meant to be my list I just took the names from the PFF link for discussions sake.

    Jake Long MIA
    Andrew Whitworth CIN
    D'Brickashaw Ferguson NYJ
    Joe Thomas CLE
    Doug Free DAL
    Jordan Gross CAR
    Jason Peters PHI
    Ryan Clady DEN
    Russell Okung SEA
    Bryant McKinnie MIN
    Chad Clifton GB
    Duane Brown HST
    Rodger Saffold SL
    Jeff Backus DET
    Barry Sims SF
    Branden Albert KC
    Michael Oher BAL
    Joe Staley SF
    Matt Light NE
    Jermon Bushrod NO
    Michael Roos TEN

    Just looking at the list of names I wouldn't say Light is a top 10 LT any more.
  28. supafly

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    I agree for sure, but he is still our best present option due to his experience, and knowledge of the system. I think the team is fine either way.
  29. DarrylS

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    The Soler pick is a replacement for Light, but with this labor situation it is a huge jump for a college LT to jump to a starting LT in the NFL. Soler has not had the opportunity for OTA's, hanging with the other Pat Players to understand the NFL and Patriot Culture and will be a work in progress..

    IMO the Soler pick was a pick made with the labor situation in mind, he does not have to step in on day 1... we can make sure he is ready.

    If and when this labor situation is over, need to sign Light for a couple of more years.. and he can "bridge" Soler.
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2011
  30. Don Kipines

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    Wow, Sebastian Vollmer looked pretty damn good handling Dwight Freeney a few years ago. I wouldn't have lost sleep with Vollmer at LT at all. If Solder's that kind of player, I think we're in good shape.
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