Welcome to PatsFans.com

Unique Top 700 list updated 3/3/09

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by PATSNUTme, Mar 3, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    15,209
    Likes Received:
    61
    Ratings:
    +97 / 2 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    This was posted on the sticky thread but at that time it was just a list of ranked players.

    They have updated it and have a spread sheet of the "measurables". I assume this come from the Combine.

    NFL Draft - 2009 Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com Football

    I've not seen this before on any list. Usually they have ht, weight and 40 times. This has the vert,, cone, shuttle, ect. So I decide to put it on it's own thread.
  2. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    11,485
    Likes Received:
    246
    Ratings:
    +542 / 6 / -0

    Thanks Nut, that's a bookmark for sure!
  3. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    11,485
    Likes Received:
    246
    Ratings:
    +542 / 6 / -0

    Thanks to that fabulous sortable table, we now have an official least-athletic player in the draft: Baylor OT Dan Gay, who put up the slowest cone and shuttle scores, the 2nd-lowest vertical, and a bottom-10 40.
  4. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    20,389
    Likes Received:
    91
    Ratings:
    +211 / 14 / -2

    How can we trust any list that has Barwin and Sintim as 2nd rounders, not even a "1-2". :)
  5. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    11,485
    Likes Received:
    246
    Ratings:
    +542 / 6 / -0

    ;) Though to be fair, neither is available at 47 by their reckoning.

    In fact, I'm struck by how many of the board's favorites are ranked 34-47 on that list:English, Moore, Mack, Beatty, Robiskie, Barwin, Sintim, Unger, Gilbert, Delmas. It's a good reminder of just how valuable pick #34 is.
  6. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    20,389
    Likes Received:
    91
    Ratings:
    +211 / 14 / -2

    As discussed before, this speaks to trading our 58 and 89 to move up into this range.

  7. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    5,026
    Likes Received:
    20
    Ratings:
    +32 / 11 / -4

    #54 Jersey

    Thanks!

    It is not quite as bulky or slow as the old one at NFLDraftScout, but I guess I can get used to it...
  8. Seneschal2

    Seneschal2 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,221
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    And just to emphasize, this board noted long before #34's addition, that the value of this draft lies after #23, extending into round 3.

    EDIT: Oh, great list! Thanks for the convenience.
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  9. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    20,550
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    I was struck with how slow Alphonso Smith's quickness scores where...
  10. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    12,608
    Likes Received:
    145
    Ratings:
    +329 / 0 / -1

    I wonder where they got all their numbers from. Some are recognizable from the combine, but some were not among the early published combine numbers. Were they late postings from the combine, or did CBS get some of them from other venues? There are some interesting numbers.

    Consider, for example, the 3-cone drill, a popular Pats favorite as a measure of agility and non-linear speed among RBs, WRs, DBs and LBs.

    - Malcolm Jenkins, who run a disappointing 40, had the fastest 3-cone time of 7.59. Alphonso Smith had a very pedestrian 3-cone time of 7.09 (6'5" QB Josh Freeman ran a 7.11). DJ Moore's was 7.01. Note that last year's 2 favorite CBs for the Pats, DRC and Wheatley, had very fast 3-cone times. Sean Smith and Darius Butler were somewhat better at 6.92. Coye Francies ran a slow 40 but a very fast 3-cone at 6.81. Joe Burnett ran a blazing 6.68.
    - Louis Delmas had a very fast 3-cone time of 6.67, one of the fastest times posted. William Moore ran a surprisingly fast 6.84 3-cone.
    - Connor Barwin had a 6.87 time (fastest among DEs at the combine). Aaron Curry and Brian Cushing ran a 6.84, Clay Matthews a 6.90, and James Laurinaitis a 6.92. In contrast, Larry English ran a 7.26 and Clint Sintim a 7.37. Everett Brown and Robert Ayers ran a whopping 7.58, Michael Johnson a 7.42, Aaron Maybin a 7.50, and Paul Kruger a 7.52.
    - Among WRs, Darius Heyward-Bey ran a 6.80, Brian Robiskie a 6.72, Mike Thomas a 6.65, Austin Collie a 6.78, and Mike Wallace a 6.90.

    Interesting. Again, that's assuming that all of their numbers are correct. I would really like to know where these came from and if they are all verified.
  11. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    20,550
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    NFL Draft Scout is partnered with CBS for this page. They usually get the official Combine scores within a couple weeks of the Combine. They also post scores from the Pro-Days. Some of those scores from the Combine perplex me, very few OG/OC types ran faster 40's than Logan Mankins, yet most seem to have faster 10 yd splits...
  12. Seneschal2

    Seneschal2 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,221
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Mayo and Box, as we know, many of these prospects work out for months at various Performance facilities prepping for the Combine -- some don't bother. In addition, some are athletic to begin with, while some are just good football players. The better athletes usually produce the most impressive numbers, and coupled with the amount of hours spent preparing for each drill, are able to improve considerably upon those numbers.

    At the CB position, the target test result for the 3-cone is a 7.00, the target result for the shuttle is a 4.00, the target result for the vertical is 36", and the target result for the bench reps is 15. Alphonso Smith did not meet the target test results for these four categories, yet hands down has the best ball skills of any CB.

    At the Combine, there are athletes, and there are football players. I guess the goal for the Pats is to find the football players who are athletic enough to play their respective positions. At least this is my hope.
  13. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    12,608
    Likes Received:
    145
    Ratings:
    +329 / 0 / -1

    I would agree with you that we want athletic football players, not workout warriors to play football. The last thing I would want to suggest is that we put too much stock in these numbers.

    I do think the numbers are interesting (I didn't post the thread, I'm just responding to it), however, and are worth keeping in mind. Some thoughts that come to mind:

    1. In many cases - especially with the CBs - there was not much correlation between 40 time and 3-cone shuttle time. For example, Malcolm Jenkins and Coye Francies ran slower-than-expected 40s but very fast 3-cones. Some CBs who may drop based on poor 40 times might still be high on the Pats' board based on good 3-cone times (among other factors).

    2. Some have suggested in other threads that the Pats put particular emphasis on the 3-cone is evaluating CB prospects, and that Wheatley's fast 3-cone time last year was one of the factors that put him higher on the Pats' board than most expected. If that is the case, then Alphonso Smith and DJ Moore (prototypical Pats CBs in many ways) did not follow this trend. It remains to be seen how much this weighs in the Pats' evaluation of them.

    3. Some players were surprisingly good athletes as well. Barwin is obvious, but Louis Delmas for example, who came into the combine as a "football player" with an aggressive playing style but without particular high expectations for putting up top numbers, did quite well in the agility and speed areas and showed excellent athleticism. This might be something to consider if deciding between him and another S candidate. Darius Butler was another surprisingly good athlete. If the Pats end up deciding between Butler and Alphonso Smith or DJ Moore at CB, it may be one factor to consider among many others.

    4. If the 3-cone is a good indication, then Everett Brown, Michael Johnson, Aaron Maybin and Paul Kruger showed poor agility and lateral foot speed to handle the 3-4 OLB position. They seemed much more like DEs than OLBs in this particular test. It has been noted in other threads that Vernon Gholston performed similarly to this group of prospects last year in the 3-cone, and he certainly showed at least a slow ability to adapt to 3-4 OLB; whether what this test measured was a factor in that can be debated. In contrast Connor Barwin clearly showed that he has the agility of the top LBs (Matthews, Cushing and Laurinaitis). Whether this translates on to the field is another matter.

    5. Again, if the 3-cone is a good indication, then Larry English and Clint Sintim showed that they might ultimately be better of as SILBs (where some have projected them based on their playing style and abilities) than outside, where burst, quickness, lateral agility and quick feet are more critical.

    Again, these are not absolutes, just thoughts to be considered within the bigger scheme of things.
  14. Seneschal2

    Seneschal2 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,221
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Numbers should always be considered in every draft, and I also find them interesting.

    I singled out Alphonso for obvious reasons. He remains the #1 CB on my board and the most often mentioned as an early Pats pick. Yet, his numbers are below average. Normally with short CBs, they can compensate for their lack of height by having speed, and/or quicks, along with impressive leaping ability. Hobbs at 5092, was faster and quicker in his 40, shuttle, and 3-cone, but had an impressive 42 vertical. And even with his satisfactory numbers, we still see Hobbs get beat by taller receivers (not always). Alphonso, shorter than Hobbs at 5087, OTOH has superior ball skills to Hobbs (hands, anticipation skills, always around the ball), which puts him in position to make a play on the ball (similar to Asante), leading to picks -- and labeling him a potential playmaker. IMHO, the Pats would welcome his terrific ball skills with open arms, but the only question I have is, do the Pats value his skills enough to select him #1? I'll guess they aren't considering him that early, but would with their next pick.

    I'm starting to think that there will be a serious logjam at #34 with all of the players mentioned in this post, and that #23 is destined for another player.

    Mayo, appreciate your feedback.
  15. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    12,608
    Likes Received:
    145
    Ratings:
    +329 / 0 / -1

    So it comes down to this: How highly do you think the Pats would value a short CB with limited athleticism but great instincts and ball skills? They valued Asante Samuel as a 4th round pick. Alphonso Smith is clearly well ahead of Samuel coming out of college, but I'm not at all sure he is a 1st round pick at this time, much as I like him. Ellis Hobbs (with better athleticism but lesser instincts and ball skills) was rated a 2nd pick on some boards in 2005, but fell to us in the 3rd. I could see Alphonso Smith going late 1st, but a could also see him falling to late 2nd. It's a bit of a crapshoot with him right now, even more so than with most picks.

    I agree there will be quite a logjam. Barwin, Delmas, Beatty, Sintim, English, Alphonso Smith and Sean Smith could all go between 23 and 34, or they could all fall past 34. No one has really separated himself from the pack at this point. Of course, when you have 4 picks out of 36 (between 23 and 58), a logjam is not particularly a bad thing. If we traded up from #58 using our #89 pick to around 43-44 then we would have 4 picks out of 25, and we might realistically end up with 4 of those 7 players.

    #23 might be destined for another player, but I'm not sure who that is right now, unless someone takes a Wilfork-like fall to us at #23. I'm not even sure who that player would be, just from the perspective of who we would dream about.

    Thanks as always. I always enjoy exchanging views and learning from you.
  16. bakes781

    bakes781 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    Keep in mind that NFL teams generally value a pass rushing DE/LB more than they would a DB. So while there is depth at OLB, that doesn't mean the run won't be had right in that 24-33 range.

    I don't trust a lot of these #s, but I do think we're looking at a poor crop of DBs overall. It wouldn't shock me if the #23 pick is spent on something other than a LB or DB. The strategy being that we're not pigeon-holed into taking one position over the other at #34. I honestly think that Alphonso Smith could be had at #47.
  17. MetalBleachers

    MetalBleachers Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,280
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Mayo, it's nice to find someone else who takes a close look at the 3-cone and 20-shuttle in comparison to the 40. There just aren't that many Chris Johnsons or Randy Mosses in the world who can break away from the pack.

    The 3-cone is what makes Robiskie such a solid prospect: with foot quickness, he's tough to cover man-to-man. Good call also on Sintim: I'm finally convinced that he's someone to look at for the SILB spot.

    It's only March 4. My Gawd. :ugh:
  18. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    20,550
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    What's kind of fun, Robiske, Barwin, and Sintim are all right next to each other when you want to compare 10 yd splits, ss, and 3-cone and see how the two LBs might stack up with a WR working the underneath routes...

    It also is nice to compare the 10 yd split for Barwin and Sintim, the latter led all Linebackers in sacks and that split helps show why...and why he'd add pressure rushing from ILB too.
  19. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    12,608
    Likes Received:
    145
    Ratings:
    +329 / 0 / -1

    Box, I agree with you about some of the 10 yd split numbers. I was using the 3-cone as one example, but there are clearly others.

    It's interesting that if you look at most of the top pass-rushing DEs and the top LBs that their 10 yard splits are almost identical even though their 40 times vary tremendously: 1.56 (Michael Johnson), 1.57 (Aaron Maybin), 1.58 (Brian Orapko), 1.58 (Connor Barwin), 1.58 (Clint Sintim), 1.58 (Brian Cushing), 1.59 (James Laurinaitis), 1.59 (Everett Brown). It's remarkable to see 8 top prospects separated by only 3/100 of a second. Clay Matthews is the clearest outlier at 1.49, and Aaron Curry ran a 1.53. There are some outliers on the slow end like Rey Maualuga at 1.62, Larry English at 1.64 and Robert Ayers at 1.66, who may have a little less burst.

    More interesting to me than their 40 times. Again, not a substitute for watching game film and other analysis, but an interesting exercise nonetheless.
  20. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    12,608
    Likes Received:
    145
    Ratings:
    +329 / 0 / -1

    Robiskie's 3-cone surprised me. His 10 yard split of 1.52 was better than Jeremy Maclin (1.56), Joaquin Iglesias (1.56) and Mohamed Massaquoi (1.59).

    On the other hand, Mike Wallace had a 10 yard split of 1.43 and Mike Thomas had a 1.44, comparable to Darius Heyward Bey (1.44). I could see those guys really bursting off the LOS past CBs who are trying to bump them.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>