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Understanding Current Operations in Iraq

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by patsfan13, Jul 8, 2007.

  1. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The best explanation of the current strategy and tatics I have seen from the Small Wars Journal. The author has been on the ground in Iraq (right now actually).

    http://www.smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/06/understanding-current-operatio/


    The entire article is well worth reading.

    This quote is not from a commercial site.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2007
  2. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    "the end of the beginning... changes in tactics... "

    the Eagle is about to start whooping some ass....

    hey, when US forces put their plan into effect, i have no doubt they're gonna kill a lot of bad people... and i have no doubt that journalists like this will bring the story home of a great tactical American victory, and there'll be a period of resurgance by the pro-war 25% and their "told-you-so" talking points back home...

    but it can't, and won't, last... the scab is picked... these people absolutely hate eachother now... we can round up and kill 10,000, heck 50,000 terrorists in August/September, but AQ is just gonna filter back into Iraq across their rather open borders, start blowing things up again to get the dogs fighting and sabotage reconstruction....

    you don't just blow up 105 people on a bright sunny afternoon, and then expect it to be all forgotten once democracy gets a foothold... and this is happening almost every day... you don't "get control" of hatred this fresh... these people need to be seperated at this point... sucks, but we asked for it...

    spend 400 million on that sewage plant after you've done a "clear/hold" on the neighborhood? great.... expect it to cost 800 million... between looting, sabotage, fraudulent over-charges and kickbacks.. and on and on... boom!!!

    you war enthusiasts (sorry, don't know what else to call you) seem to be overconfident that this secret X's and O's plan is some tactical Belichick brilliance that will be unleashed in the coming months... and, militarily, it probably will be... but, ah well... the Baathists are still out of work, the borders are still open, AQ is still training hundreds of new monsters in Pakistan every day...

    frankly, i wouldn't be surprised if this "surge" is nothing more than positioning for a strike on Iran... Palpatine is just that sinister and sneaky....
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    From the Article:

    "So much for theory. The practice, as always, has been mixed. Personally, I think we are doing reasonably well and casualties have been lower so far than I feared. Every single loss is a tragedy. But so far, thank God, the loss rate has not been too terrible: casualties are up in absolute terms, but down as a proportion of troops deployed (in the fourth quarter of 2006 we had about 100,000 troops in country and casualties averaged 90 deaths a month; now we have almost 160,000 troops in country but deaths are under 120 per month, much less than a proportionate increase, which would have been around 150 a month). And last year we patrolled rarely, mainly in vehicles, and got hit almost every time we went out. Now we patrol all the time, on foot, by day and night with Iraqi units normally present as partners, and the chances of getting hit are much lower on each patrol. We are finally coming out of the "defensive crouch" with which we used to approach the environment, and it is starting to pay off. "

    My concern is quite simple that it is felt that 90-120 deaths of american men and women per month is justified in this conflict.. when our reason to be there is suspect.. to rationalize the success of this in how many of our soldiers dies begs the issue, every day we read of extremists blowing up other Iraqi's.. truck bombs, bombs on the police etc. It is not about how many of our soldiers do or do not die, but the effect on this country and figuring out how to transfer power to a country that seems reluctant to accept it and the realities of its political divisions. There is no exit strategy and it seems that the Iraqi Gov't has to first recognize its divisions, neutralize the various factions and then try to proceed with some type of peace.. maybe dividing the country into three sections may be the best way, what is going on now is not the best way. While we measure our success or failure in soldier deaths, the deaths of non combatants, women and children is horrifying. But that is war, great efforts are made to do body counts on soldiers, but there is little attention paid to the women and children who seem to suffer most in this and most wars.
  4. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    the last sentence being the most troubling... somehow, i doubt our opponents grasp and truly care about the collateral damage... they fall back on the old "it's war... things happen" card...
  5. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    "war enthisiasts" puts on a negative connotation about anyone who doesn't believe in an immediate pull out. Your heart felt sorrow about having no other term you can come up with is indeed touching. It's like me saying pro-choice folks are pro abbortion enthusists. The extra zinger is quite evident.
  6. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    We've all heard the story of Washington's Army and the winter at Valley Forge. The fact that it was still called an Army and not a Division or even a Platoon come spring is the proof that the soon-to-be USA had the backbone to lead itself. Where are the Iraqis? After 4 years Cornwallis was trapped against the sea and about to be forced home by a rag-tag bunch of farmers during our revolution. After four years and with the aid of the most devastating and sophisticated military force ever put together on this planet, the Iraqis are just starting to come around? If theses people were willing to buy what we're selling, it would have happened a long time ago.
  7. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    "War enthusiasts" better refers, for me, to those who accept our continued operation in Iraq. I still haven't heard a cogent rationale for our continued presence being any more beneficial to Americans and Iraqis (I'll allow the "concern for Iraqis" with a cynical wink to those who could have cared less about them when the bombs were coming down on them in phase 1) than an immediate withdrawal. Iraq is less functional than it was 5 years ago. FIVE YEARS have gone by and we still have been unable to solve their problems. What has occurred in that time to leads you to believe that another five years will make things any better?
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Time To Come Home

    Let The Savages Slaughter Each Other
    If The World Is Concerned About These Murdering Pigs Let The UN Handle It.
  9. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    ....pretty much.....:rocker:
  10. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Which opponent are you referring to Al Queda or people who support the idea of thr WOT?
  11. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are elements of the Iraqi army that is doing a very good job. I would refer you to Michael Yon's blog where he details the activities of iraqi army elements that are working with the US forces in the surge.

    I would assume some are good and some not so good.

    http://www.michaelyon-online.com/
  12. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Natan Sharansky has a good op-ed in the Wa Po that address both the point you raise better than I could.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/06/AR2007070601994.html
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I doubt if there's ever been war that failed in every way. No one denies that there are and have been pockets of progress throughout this war. But, when you weigh the progress against the setbacks, it seems like a bum deal. When you consider there are roughly 200,000 troops defending a population of 25 million in a region of 400,000 square miles, it doesn't require much logic to say that we can't stop the insurgency. The belief of the anti-war crowd is that once we get out, the country will be no worse off and a primary justification for terrorism and insurgency will be eliminated. At that point, there will be new opportunities for the warring parties to pursue a common solution. As long as we're there, the powerbrokers in Iraq can continue to exploit us for good or bad.
  14. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Thanks for the link and I understand that it tries to make your point, patsfan, but I respectfully disagree with you and the author (big shock, I know).

    This bit of insight from the author, who neglects to point out that much of these activities were carried out when being backed by the US government with cash and equipment:
    ...He was a mass murderer who tortured children in front of their parents, gassed Kurds, slaughtered Shiites, started two wars with his neighbors and launched Scud missiles into downtown Riyadh and Tel Aviv. The price for the stability that Hussein supposedly brought to the region was mass graves, hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq, and terrorism and war outside it...

    How about this fascinating prediction based on history or some other kind of evidence?:
    ...For one of the consequences of failure could well be catastrophe....

    And here's more conjecture based on nothing unless he has a crystal ball or time machine:
    ...A precipitous withdrawal of U.S. forces could lead to a bloodbath that would make the current carnage pale by comparison. Without U.S. troops in place to quell some of the violence, Iranian-backed Shiite militias would dramatically increase their attacks on Sunnis; Sunni militias, backed by the Saudis or others, would retaliate in kind, drawing more and more of Iraq into a vicious cycle of violence. If Iraq descended into full-blown civil war, the chaos could trigger similar clashes throughout the region as Sunni-Shiite tensions spill across Iraq's borders. The death toll and the displacement of civilians could climb exponentially....

    And the author once again parrots the sentimental comparison to Viet Nam, suggesting we should have or could have tried to scale up the effort and somehow beaten one of the fiercest indigenous defenders in modern history - the Viet Cong. And how mant more thousands of Americans would have been sacrificed for the "freedom" of the Vietnamese who were already living under a military dictatorship, but one that was friendly to US interests.

    Ironically, the article you provided me makes my point better than it debunks it.
  15. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    IIRC the vast majority of Saddam's equipment was supplied by the USSR, tanks, chem weapons advisors, aircraft. I don't recall seeing much US equipment in photos from either Gulf war.

    Sharansky certainly has more first hand experience with dictatorships than you and I combined. IMO his POV is very worthwhile. (big suprise!).
  16. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    I think the rational isn't just to keep the war going, it is to leave under the best possible conditions. Christ, the candidate(Hillary) that is most likely to win the next election believes that. Is she a "war enthusiast"?
  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Yes. In terms of this occupation, she is.
  18. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    Then you know little of history. You do not even have to go beyond our shores to find a better example. For 3/4 of our own conflict, Union troops were tactically and strategically outmaneuvered and embarrassed by sessesh rebels at every turn. They did have the advantage of better leadership, but our ineptness and poor combat leadership led us to despair on a level at least (if not more) then what is seen now. we were on the brink of coming apart at the seams.

    It took a {alleged} drunk from Ohio to to introduce a new concept of warfare to our arsenal. It was raw, ugly, and it shocked the nation. It also saved the republic.

    I only wish we had such leadership now.
  19. 363839

    363839 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You mean like General Sherman?
  20. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I believe he was referring more to US Grant.

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