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U.N.: 34,452 Iraq Civilians Killed in '06

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Jan 16, 2007.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Is Bush the new Saddam? We got rid of one brutal dictator, by using methods that are equally brutal or that created opportunities for equally brutal forces. This number will continue to climb, and one wonders how many people died as a result of indirect causes, such as lack of medical supplies and shortage of electricity. I also read that about 40% of Iraq's middle class have fled, which obviously can't be good for the economic stability of the country.

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/wireStory?id=2797594

    Nearly 35,000 civilians were killed last year in Iraq, the United Nations said Tuesday, a sharp increase from the numbers reported previously by the Iraqi government.

    Gianni Magazzeni, the chief of the U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq, said 34,452 civilians were killed and 36,685 were wounded last year.

    Iraqi government figures in early January put last year's civilian death toll at 12,357. When asked about the difference, Magazzeni said the U.N. figures were compiled from information obtained through the Iraqi Health Ministry, hospitals across the country and the Medico-Legal Institute in Baghdad.

    "Without significant progress in the rule of law sectarian violence will continue indefinitely and eventually spiral out of control," he warned.
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    War Is Hell
  3. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I thought it was 650,000 that died in iraq?
  4. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    in other words: "oh well... i can live with that... i'm not seeing the carnage, and others are doing the fighting for me"
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Good point.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1892888,00.html

    The epidemiological research was carried out on the ground by teams of doctors moving from house to house, questioning families and examining death certificates. Between May and July this year, they visited 1,849 households in 47 separated clusters across the length and breadth of Iraq. The doctors asked about deaths among members of the household in a period before the invasion, from January 2002 to March 2003, and about deaths since. In 92% of cases, they were shown death certificates confirming the cause.

    A total of 629 deaths were reported, of which 547 - or 87% - occurred after the invasion. The mortality rate before the war was 5.5 per 1,000, but since the invasion, it has risen to 13.3 per 1,000 per year, they say. Between June 2005 and June 2006, the mortality rate hit a high of 19.8 per 1,000.

    Thus they calculate that 654,965 Iraqis have died as a consequence of the invasion. It is an estimate and the mid-point, and most likely of a range of numbers that could also be correct in the context of their statistical analysis. But even the lowest number in the range - 392,979 - is higher that anyone else has suggested. Of the deaths, 31% were ascribed to the US-led forces. Most deaths were from gunshot wounds (56%), with a further 13% from car bomb injuries and 14% the result of other explosions.
  6. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    Debaathification going a long way towards those totals, also... Genocide, if you ask me... Ordered by who? Paul Bremer. From who? The White House... and guess what? They still have Chalabi orchestrating debaathification... No, no bitterness there...

  7. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ..............

    Gimme a break NEM. Basing policy, or decisions, on those premises is illogical. It's nice and all, but very unrealistic. All decisions have repurcusions. Sanctions kill indirectly, wars kill directly. Either way, people die. Whereas I totally understand the distiction between the two, and am in no way trying to specificly equate the previous UN sanctions versus this war, the general fact is that both kill, and decisions have to be made with reality in mind.

    Anyhow, that 650,000 figure was both ridiculous, and political. All deaths are regretable. Certainly, the civilian casualties of this war have been far too many to be deemed acceptable by anyone's standard. My point in mentioning the 650,000, is that it was BS, people knew it was a BS number, yet so many news agencies repeatedly put it in the news. Hmmm....I wonder why they did that?
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course, I hope you're right, but we don't know that. The methodology of those who came up with that number doesn't seem outlandish, especially if they really visited a representative sampling of Iraqi homes in different areas. I have no idea of the political leaning of the Lancet medical journal:

    http://www.thelancet.com/

    My suspicion is that the researchers were honest, but their methodology was flawed. On the other hand, the other methods used to estimate loss of life do not take into account people who died because a hospital blew up, medicines were unavailable, electric was unavailable for air conditioning, and so on.

    Iraq body count which uses a conservative method,

    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/background.php#methods,

    estimates that 55,000 people have died:

    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

    I think we can only agree that Bush's war is not only killing people at a rate that Saddam would admire, it's also destroyed a nation.
  9. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And how many would have been killed by Saddam's killing machine ?
  10. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    I don't know, how many were killed the year before the US came in?
  11. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    No one knows. How many died of starvation and disease from the sanctions? How many died from ethnic cleansing? How many died from torture and abuse? We may never know the actual number that died.
  12. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Then it seems silly to use it to mitigate how many deaths the US was responsible for, as BelichickFan was doing.
  13. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Why does it seem silly? I think it's safe to say that a large amount died, considering the regime in power, its history, and the fact that food and medicine were extremely hard to come by. We don't know the exact amount, but we certainly can assume it was a sizable figure.
  14. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    If the implication is that they're better off now than they were under Saddam (which is how I read BelichickFan's comment), it either needs to be backed up with proof or it's just talking out of the ass.

    Otherwise the conversation goes like this:
    "35K civillians died."
    "That's better than if Saddam was in charge."
    "Really? How many died while Saddam was in charge?"
    "Who knows?"
  15. pats-blue

    pats-blue Rookie

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    I know my girlfriend lived through daily bombings when she was a little girl in Iran when Saddam was bombing and gassing them.
  16. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    That's horrible, and I'm glad she was lucky to get out of her situation, but anecdotal accounts are not data and can't be used as a rationale.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2007
  17. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No it's not. Now I'll admit, I'm concerned much more about lives outside of the middle east so that is my focus. That said, NEM can't say one innocent person is too much when other innocent persons may have been killed had we not gone in. If you look at lives as equals, then we likely saved some innocent lives. Assuming the 34,452 is correct, did we save more than that or less ? I have no idea. But clearly if you lose X lives and save Y then the Y saved lives mitigate the X lost lives. Maybe fully, maybe not as I don't know what Y equals.
  18. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Well that's just it, if you can't quantify it you can't use it as your reason.

    "The Iraqis are better off now than they were under Saddam."
    "Why?"
    "I don't know, they just are."

    Maybe we can start invading other countries because their people MIGHT end up better off than they are now. We can't quantify it, but why not?
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2007
  19. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What does "debaath" mean, is that a form of Ebonics?
  20. pats-blue

    pats-blue Rookie

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    I really am not sure why people who lived through the ACTUAL events can't be used as rational??? That really has me confused. That has always confused me about this board...a link to a blogger always carries more weight than the experiences of those that actually were there and went through the events. How is it not "data" her expereince was from ACTUAL events that Saddam initiated.

    Honestly I am not even taking a side in this whole Bush as bad as Saddam thing. I just know my Persian girlfriend who lived through some of this has some opinions on Saddam and the current Iran. These opinions are very RATIONAL since she LIVED it...she was there and saw it...not sure how you can discount her expereiances as not rational..because it isn't in a pie chart? Really you are a very good poster and I am not taking sides but to discount her first hand expereince is actually kind of offensive. (hey I know what her and her family went through and did not relay that all here as it isn't anybodies business so don't think I m all jerked up about it, but really you need to think about minimizing first hand accounts and believing in "data"...any thoughts that the Doctors may be Sunnis or ****ites and perverting your "data"? Personnally I will take my girlfriends word over any Blogger)

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