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U.N.: 34,452 Iraq Civilians Killed in '06

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Jan 16, 2007.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Is Bush the new Saddam? We got rid of one brutal dictator, by using methods that are equally brutal or that created opportunities for equally brutal forces. This number will continue to climb, and one wonders how many people died as a result of indirect causes, such as lack of medical supplies and shortage of electricity. I also read that about 40% of Iraq's middle class have fled, which obviously can't be good for the economic stability of the country.

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/wireStory?id=2797594

    Nearly 35,000 civilians were killed last year in Iraq, the United Nations said Tuesday, a sharp increase from the numbers reported previously by the Iraqi government.

    Gianni Magazzeni, the chief of the U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq, said 34,452 civilians were killed and 36,685 were wounded last year.

    Iraqi government figures in early January put last year's civilian death toll at 12,357. When asked about the difference, Magazzeni said the U.N. figures were compiled from information obtained through the Iraqi Health Ministry, hospitals across the country and the Medico-Legal Institute in Baghdad.

    "Without significant progress in the rule of law sectarian violence will continue indefinitely and eventually spiral out of control," he warned.
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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  3. Real World

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    I thought it was 650,000 that died in iraq?
  4. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    in other words: "oh well... i can live with that... i'm not seeing the carnage, and others are doing the fighting for me"
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Good point.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1892888,00.html

    The epidemiological research was carried out on the ground by teams of doctors moving from house to house, questioning families and examining death certificates. Between May and July this year, they visited 1,849 households in 47 separated clusters across the length and breadth of Iraq. The doctors asked about deaths among members of the household in a period before the invasion, from January 2002 to March 2003, and about deaths since. In 92% of cases, they were shown death certificates confirming the cause.

    A total of 629 deaths were reported, of which 547 - or 87% - occurred after the invasion. The mortality rate before the war was 5.5 per 1,000, but since the invasion, it has risen to 13.3 per 1,000 per year, they say. Between June 2005 and June 2006, the mortality rate hit a high of 19.8 per 1,000.

    Thus they calculate that 654,965 Iraqis have died as a consequence of the invasion. It is an estimate and the mid-point, and most likely of a range of numbers that could also be correct in the context of their statistical analysis. But even the lowest number in the range - 392,979 - is higher that anyone else has suggested. Of the deaths, 31% were ascribed to the US-led forces. Most deaths were from gunshot wounds (56%), with a further 13% from car bomb injuries and 14% the result of other explosions.
  6. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    Debaathification going a long way towards those totals, also... Genocide, if you ask me... Ordered by who? Paul Bremer. From who? The White House... and guess what? They still have Chalabi orchestrating debaathification... No, no bitterness there...

  7. Real World

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    Gimme a break NEM. Basing policy, or decisions, on those premises is illogical. It's nice and all, but very unrealistic. All decisions have repurcusions. Sanctions kill indirectly, wars kill directly. Either way, people die. Whereas I totally understand the distiction between the two, and am in no way trying to specificly equate the previous UN sanctions versus this war, the general fact is that both kill, and decisions have to be made with reality in mind.

    Anyhow, that 650,000 figure was both ridiculous, and political. All deaths are regretable. Certainly, the civilian casualties of this war have been far too many to be deemed acceptable by anyone's standard. My point in mentioning the 650,000, is that it was BS, people knew it was a BS number, yet so many news agencies repeatedly put it in the news. Hmmm....I wonder why they did that?
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course, I hope you're right, but we don't know that. The methodology of those who came up with that number doesn't seem outlandish, especially if they really visited a representative sampling of Iraqi homes in different areas. I have no idea of the political leaning of the Lancet medical journal:

    http://www.thelancet.com/

    My suspicion is that the researchers were honest, but their methodology was flawed. On the other hand, the other methods used to estimate loss of life do not take into account people who died because a hospital blew up, medicines were unavailable, electric was unavailable for air conditioning, and so on.

    Iraq body count which uses a conservative method,

    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/background.php#methods,

    estimates that 55,000 people have died:

    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

    I think we can only agree that Bush's war is not only killing people at a rate that Saddam would admire, it's also destroyed a nation.
  9. BelichickFan

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    And how many would have been killed by Saddam's killing machine ?
  10. Pujo

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    I don't know, how many were killed the year before the US came in?
  11. Real World

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    No one knows. How many died of starvation and disease from the sanctions? How many died from ethnic cleansing? How many died from torture and abuse? We may never know the actual number that died.
  12. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Then it seems silly to use it to mitigate how many deaths the US was responsible for, as BelichickFan was doing.
  13. Real World

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    Why does it seem silly? I think it's safe to say that a large amount died, considering the regime in power, its history, and the fact that food and medicine were extremely hard to come by. We don't know the exact amount, but we certainly can assume it was a sizable figure.
  14. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    If the implication is that they're better off now than they were under Saddam (which is how I read BelichickFan's comment), it either needs to be backed up with proof or it's just talking out of the ass.

    Otherwise the conversation goes like this:
    "35K civillians died."
    "That's better than if Saddam was in charge."
    "Really? How many died while Saddam was in charge?"
    "Who knows?"
  15. pats-blue

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    I know my girlfriend lived through daily bombings when she was a little girl in Iran when Saddam was bombing and gassing them.
  16. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    That's horrible, and I'm glad she was lucky to get out of her situation, but anecdotal accounts are not data and can't be used as a rationale.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2007
  17. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No it's not. Now I'll admit, I'm concerned much more about lives outside of the middle east so that is my focus. That said, NEM can't say one innocent person is too much when other innocent persons may have been killed had we not gone in. If you look at lives as equals, then we likely saved some innocent lives. Assuming the 34,452 is correct, did we save more than that or less ? I have no idea. But clearly if you lose X lives and save Y then the Y saved lives mitigate the X lost lives. Maybe fully, maybe not as I don't know what Y equals.
  18. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Well that's just it, if you can't quantify it you can't use it as your reason.

    "The Iraqis are better off now than they were under Saddam."
    "Why?"
    "I don't know, they just are."

    Maybe we can start invading other countries because their people MIGHT end up better off than they are now. We can't quantify it, but why not?
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2007
  19. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What does "debaath" mean, is that a form of Ebonics?
  20. pats-blue

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    I really am not sure why people who lived through the ACTUAL events can't be used as rational??? That really has me confused. That has always confused me about this board...a link to a blogger always carries more weight than the experiences of those that actually were there and went through the events. How is it not "data" her expereince was from ACTUAL events that Saddam initiated.

    Honestly I am not even taking a side in this whole Bush as bad as Saddam thing. I just know my Persian girlfriend who lived through some of this has some opinions on Saddam and the current Iran. These opinions are very RATIONAL since she LIVED it...she was there and saw it...not sure how you can discount her expereiances as not rational..because it isn't in a pie chart? Really you are a very good poster and I am not taking sides but to discount her first hand expereince is actually kind of offensive. (hey I know what her and her family went through and did not relay that all here as it isn't anybodies business so don't think I m all jerked up about it, but really you need to think about minimizing first hand accounts and believing in "data"...any thoughts that the Doctors may be Sunnis or ****ites and perverting your "data"? Personnally I will take my girlfriends word over any Blogger)
  21. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    The reason is that she's ONE person. If you can use one person as a reason to invade a country, you're allowing yourself to be swayed by the emotion of the situation rather than its gravity. I could find a horror story from any country in the world, but it doesn't justify invasion.

    A blogger is completely worthless.

    Only aggregate statistics are going to give you any real, wide view of the situation.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2007
  22. Real World

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    Ha! Yeah Harry, it means you take "debaath" when you're in "detub". :D
  23. Real World

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    I think people need to take all factors into account, and make up their minds accordingly. There are obvioulsy two sides to every story. Their are slants, angles, and ways to manipulate figures. Their are agenda's, flawed logic, and misrepresentation of the truth. There's emotion, or sometimes lack of it, to consider too. It's never one mean's that you should use when coming to a conclusion.

    Anyhow, any chance you girlfriend would come post some in here? I'd be real curious about her experiences and opinions.
  24. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    Yay! Let's laugh at the ignorance wrapped in a joke! Hooray! With a side order of biggotry, to boot!

    This runs parrallel to the idiot president who actually didn't realize there were different Muslims groups...

    Debaathification, to anyone paying attention (that excludes you, Harry), is the firing of any and all Baathists left over from Saddam's rule... From the ministry to sanitation workers... Effectively putting 2 million Iraqis out of work, and further igniting ethnic tensions...
  25. Real World

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    Wow, no one in here ever knew that. Amazing, and all this time Harry and I thought it was ghetto slang for taking a bath. :eek:

    Dude, put the inflatable doll down, and relax. :singing:
  26. pats-blue

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    I'm not saying that it is a REASON to go into Iraq. But I am relaying that Saddam WAS a mass murderer. I think it is appalling that people minimize what he did in comparing people as "numbers". Honestly the deaths in Iraq are still being caused by Saddam in a round about way. Yes some of our troops are being killed with roadside bombs...but many of the deaths are in civilian areas..market places and such. The Sunnis are still killing innocent people....and reports are that ****es do plenty of "revenge" killing (again usually innocent people being killed..rarely do people like this go after the perpetrators they go after people just going about thier daily business IMO)

    Honestly there are NO aggregate statisitics coming out of Iraq and anyone that thinks there are is blind to the fact that EVERYBODY has thier agenda there and because Saddam controlled the country to the point if you spoke out you dissappeared (as ENTIRE villages did) there is no data so basically since no one can point at a poll we cannot "prove" to you that Saddam killed X number of people and therefore since we can't prove X > Y since X is an unknown EXACT quantity Iraq is "worse" off. Well our troops aren't killing very many people that aren't shooting at them right now, if they stop killing themselves then you won't see such figures.

    Also how many reports are there of the mass graves found in Iraq? How many hundreds of thousands of Iranians died and were GASSED by Saddam?

    Really this is a retarded argument? So now we are to minimize Saddams place in history to make sure Bush looks "worse"? Of course since my girlfriends family is only several people thier experiences really don't count. Daily bombings of thier house by a madman is only anadotal evidence and isn't reliable since they are emotional about it??? UUhhh yeah huddling up while being bombed by a mad man sure can be emotional......not a real reliable expereince either since they will "prejudice" the discussion? I really don't get that so the people this person wronged don't have a voice because since they went through it of course they would say he is a bad man? Isn't that really saying because you want Bush to be worse anyone saying Saddam is a bad person and relating horrific expereinces because of him isn't a true representation of the facts?

    Hey I don't even know what her opinion of Bush is and really could care less. She felt like venting one day and relayed some opinions and because of the horrific nature of what her family went through from Saddam AND the Iraninan psycho government (her words) I just listened. I know she is very happy to be here and a US citizen. I can tell you though her family belives he got what he deserved, not out of revenge but she KNOWS he is a mass murderer. We had more business going into Iraq than he had attacking Iran. Not saying it is right, just comparing Bush to Saddam is slanting this argument in the rush and hate of Bush.....Why is Bush even mentioned? Could we not ask the question if the Iraqi people are better off pre or post war? Of course we could but in the rush to bash Bush his name gets put into it and really nothing after that will be "rational" because then instead of the Iraqi people it is all about Bush is bad or good, right or wrong, pro war anti-war and whatever side of that isle you are on the others sides facts suck.

    I relayed an expereince from a loved one who saw first hand Saddams handy work and was told it isn't as reliable as "data" really? Again I will take my girlfriend and her families expereince and pretty much say that I BELIEVE that Saddam was a mass murderer and the world is better off without him. I don't care if people don't like or hate Bush but to put him in the same sentence as Saddam is an affront to the people that Saddam tortured and killed and to the Iraqi people.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2007
  27. pats-blue

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    Unfortunaltely her Dad has bone cancer and has only a very short time left and she is spending as much time as she can with him and I try not and burden her with anything but happy thoughts when she is with me so to try and relieve some of the stress she is under.

    I will say this....this Persian family IS the American dream. They came here with nothing and worked hard and are very successful (doctors and lawyers and other occupations) they live very well but EVERYONE they associate with are very grounded people, don't look down on anyone that isn't in thier financial class like many people here in the Valley do (People born here)

    My girlfriend speaks three languanges and is learning her 4th. (and she will tell you that she isn't even the smart one in her family) She is stunningly beautiful yet isn't even a little bit conceited and is the nicest most caring person I have ever met. They are Muslim but very "Americanized". The things her Dad did to rescue her family from Iran would make a special forces soldier or 007 proud.

    Honestly she treats everyday like a gift and is the most positive person I have ever met and really would never subject her to this board....I think most would know what I mean.

    I thought I would relay for those that disparage all Muslims of my expereince with this family is the greatest time of my life. I have never met such wonderful people. Believe me in my job I can tell you there are PLENTY of people out there that fit thier race/religion/cultures negative stereotype to a tee. There is plenty of ammutinion for the stereotypes because of the ignorance of these people from ALL races and such. BUt there is plenty of people that are the exact opposite. Just thought I would use this opprotunity to share my experience with those here...of course it is a first hand experience and emotionally charged and is not "data" so most will probably discount my expereince with this wonderful Muslim family but I thought I would try...:D
  28. BelichickFan

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    Sure I can. I can say that some of those 34K are offset by other deaths than would have happened. I can't say they are totally offset because I don't know. But the net of # dead minus # would be dead is smaller than 34,452. How much smaller, I don't know.
  29. Turd Furguson

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    Somebody pull the stick out of Press Coverage's rectum. That was a funny line.
  30. Harry Boy

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    The Bush Haters and the sore losing democrats don't like to say to much that is bad about Saddam because Saddam was a Real "Bush Enemy" so according to them if Bush didn't like him he couldn't have been all bad.
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