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Two graphs showing RW and PF13 are right: We running out of money

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by State, Jul 25, 2011.

  1. State

    State Rookie

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    How much money is in the federal bank account? These two graphs, updated daily, tell the story. - By Chris Wilson - Slate Magazine

    The two graphs are truly scary and can't be wished away. The Slate article opens with the following:
    Real World and Patsfan13 have agreed with this article's premise in the past.

    Anyone who doesn't now is actively engaging in denial.

    And, no, military spending cuts are not going to save the day.
  2. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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  3. patsfan13

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    If you try to extract too much revenue you hurt the economy and reduce the revenue the Treasury takes in . The best way to generate revenue is to grow the economy not strangle it with excessive regulation and government spending and excessive taxes on the revenue and job producers.
  4. The Brandon Five

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    Revenues as % of GDP appear to be lower than the 18-20% range, suggesting that maybe we have gone too low.

    I think we need to do both. You need to stop the bleeding and give the patient a couple of pints (of plasma, not Guiness).
  5. patsfan13

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    Well the rates haven't been changed directly. What has happened is that incomes especially in the upper brackets have been reduced, so the decline of Revenue as a % of GDP is a direct reflection of that in the absence of changes in the tax rates. So addition taxes will drive the % even lower. That is the point.
  6. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    We're taxed enough. What we need to do is take an axe to some of the needless subsidies corporations get, as well as eliminate alot of the deductions found throughout the tax base. Combine that with a simplified code, restructuring of free trade agreements, the elimination of a lot of foreign aide, a 20% slash in defense spending (do we really need to be all over the world like we are?), the deportation of red ink illegals, and an end to the government buying people a hoverround, and giving out free cell phones, and we'll be in better shape moving forward. It's really not that complicated imo.
  7. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't know why there are Army Bases in Europe.
  8. The Brandon Five

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    At least why there are ones that we pay for alone.
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Those Bush and Reagan tax cuts for the wealthy continue to haunt us to this day.
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    RW & PF13 are no dummys either one of them would make a better president than the Poor Fool we have in there now.
  11. Ilikehappyppl

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    LMAO, No.....just......no......


    We need free thinkers, we don't need anymore black and white people, there the problem.:rocker:

    We need to raise income taxes on the rich, from 35-36% to 40-45% we need to cut all loopholes for corp and subsidies for big oil and we need to cut all the military in half....Problem solved! Put the left over money half to debt re-payment and the other half to all small business making less then 1 million after taxes.

    Maybe I should run for Prez, I mean if you think these 2 are good for the job! I'll mop the floor with them....:cool:
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  12. patsfan13

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    If you think that is a solution you are very mistaken, first your 'solution' would LOWER not raise government due to the negative impact on the economy. If you cut the 'loopholes' you reduce energy production with the attendent rise in energy price (the supply and demand thingy). So unemployment and the deficits would skyrocket.
  13. wistahpatsfan

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    ...or anywhere else outside of the US borders.
  14. patsfan13

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    Yup no need to defend Europe anymore they can take care of themselves. A lot of other bases are no longer needed. I ,ight keep an airbase or two like Deigo Garcia, or in N Korea due to the nutjob there. In generally we don't need to pay for the defense of many of these places.
  15. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Insolvency and the was politicans live in fantasy land:



    We are destroying the country due to the socialist policies that go back to FDR the system isn't sustainable. The longer the politicians delay and dither the worse it will be.
  16. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    right, socialism...

    Do you want to get rid of all "socialist" policies or just some of them or do you want to just reduce those in place? (In other words, are you ok with a certain level of what you dub socialism?)
  17. patsfan13

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    We would be better off getting rid of the whole mess ASAP. It isn't doable right away. I voted for S Forbes who unfortunately lost to Bush, but he understood the problem and had solutions we could be putting in place now.

    You might google his platform and see who much sense it makes relative to the insanity we see from the people in power currently.
  18. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    What was our nation like before the "whole mess" existed?

    I agree with you that there's too much spending now. But the idea of ditching everything just goes from one extreme to another -- another that we already know doesn't work.


    Forbes had some good ideas but his fiddling with the flat tax not only would lead to the same garbage we now experience, but also was clearly intended to benefit his financial class.

    He also believed in small government only from a financial viewpoint, which I personally think is bs. I don't buy into the notion that we should have small government when it comes to helping people but big government when it comes to controlling non-financial aspects of citizens' lives.
  19. PatriotsReign

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    One idea that's been kicked around by republicans is to eliminate the Mortgage Interest Deduction.

    In my opinion, that would be the worst thing possible regarding our economy right now. Home ownership and home building is part of the guts of our economic engine. Take away the MID and we might as well put a lid on real estate for the next 20 years.

    Stupid idea....
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  20. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    I thought you were in favor of getting rid of all the artificial props supporting the real estate market and taking our lumps so that we can get back to "true" market levels. (but maybe I'm confusing you with RW?)
  21. State

    State Rookie

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    You are correct.

    People respond to incentives, which static analyses neglect.

    Lowering the effective rate of taxation very often can cause an ensuing rise in tax receipts. Think 1980s.

    Yeah, we ran deficits that are small by today's standards because spending rose faster, both military (that truth be told had begun under Carter) and non-military spending.

    The problem is not enough in taxation--our corporate taxes are second highest in the world--it is, rather, simplifying the cumbersome code and lowering rates. Capital gains cuts would help foster an increase in our capital stock. That's good for the economy.

    One of the things that I don't think is commonly understood is that when we disproportionately raise our federal income taxes from the rich, as we our doing, they can holdback causing receipts to fall faster than if the whole population had skin in the game.

    Nearly half of "adults" are not paying income taxes. That's wrong. And why should they be able to vote?
  22. chicowalker

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    "very often"? no. Sometimes? Yes.

    Of course, the question of causation needs to be looked at carefully, and much appears to be related to where tax rates are at the time of the change.


    Hey, you got something completely right for once.


    Because voting is a right, not something you buy.
  23. patsfan13

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    Yes receipts rose after Kennedy lowered rates, and after Reagan lowered rates of course the congress instead of using the $$$ to lower rates and pay off debt spent every cent and then some.

    17% flat tax and end double taxation of corp profits. Cut spending and watch the economy boom instead of going back into another recession.
  24. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    like the ideas but where does the 17% figure come from?
    do you know what kind of tax revenue that is projected to produce under various scenarios?
  25. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    I personally prefer a "Flatter" tax to an outright flat tax. I'd like to see maybe 4 or 5 brackets with clearly defined breaking points. I'd like to mesh the progressive system with the flat's simplicity. So say a minimum tax up to the poverty level, a 10% tax from there to say $25k, 20% to $100k, 25% to $500k, and 30% for everything thereafter. These aren't the exact numbers obviously, as I'm just tossing them out there as examples only. The hard numbers would require a little research and computing in order to estimate the proper return in reciepts. With this I would eliminate a lot of deductions. I'd keep some like dependents, mortgage interest, and charitable giving, but some other stuff would have to go. Again though, the percentages and ranges of income I listed are merely numerical examples. My general point is that a "flatter" tax with say 5 brackets, and fewer deductions is what I'd prefer.
  26. patsfan13

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    It was the figure used by Forbes. Cut spending to match up with revenues. Years ago M Freidman figured the rate to produce the highest growth and maximize revenues over time would be 12% IIRC.
  27. PatriotsReign

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    Simply put, the mortgage interest deduction is not a stimulus...so there you go chico, I'm staying consistent.

    Unless you favor removing the deduction for dependents as well...those 2 are the same.
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  28. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I agree. The abysmal job Obama has done with our economy has creating a situation whereby so many are out of work, so much business is not being conducted, etc, etc, so revenues are down.

    Of course, as any sane person would agree, raising taxes at this point would be economic suicide. We need to fix the economy first. Maybe by 2014 (assuming the crackhead in chief loses in 2012).
  29. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Well now, considering just about every Republican running for president and all but 13 Republican congressmen have signed a pledge to never raise taxes how do you think that's going to happen?

    Or will it be ok for them to go back on their word once there's not a Democrat sitting in The White House?
  30. PatriotsReign

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    The Pledge....Stupidest thing the republicans ever dreamed up!

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