Two down ILB with run stuffer role.

[JMarr]

I see an arguement of point on the relevance of a thumper in a 3/4. I do not believe the game has changed in a way that eliminates this need. I know that there are more 3/4 wr sets, spread schemes, but Titles are won with defense period. I will gladly take a thumper like Ted Jonson in this system because it is a designated position in this design. A Maualuga is perfect for filling this role. Tackling can be taught-but it is rare to find a natural-play stopping 250lb LB that ends drives because they are the wall you have to deal with. Most playoff games are won with defense making the difference. Especially when the winter conditions force passing schemes to have to run. I want a Maualuga type in this environment. Johnson against Bettis was a perfect example of this element. I want tacklers, because when the oppostion is on the ground, they can't be doing anything good.

Excellent points about how crucial it is having a third down difference maker in the middle. Arguably, such a LB is the most valuable player in the 3-4, after NT perhaps. The idea that Mauqluga doesn't fit our scheme b/c he is a just two down LB is a red herring. Comparisons to Ted Johnson ignore Mauluga's speed and versatility.

The two-down run stuffer idea is misguided precisely b/c football has changed--we are obviously light years away from the 2-running-plays-then-a pass NFL of old. It's usually only third-and-a mile situations where most defensive packages replace LBs with DBs en masse. A LB that is so good that he can stuff the run and can hold his own in most intermediate distance situations is obviously ideal. Maualuga is closer to that type of player than any I've seen in recent memory.

Sorry, but scouts (both armchair and "professional") who are saying that Rey will only be a two down player in the NFL A) either haven't watched him play enough, or B) don't understand BB's defensive schemes. People get so caught up in the fact that he was a 4-3 MLB college, it blinds them to the fact that he has all the raw tools and instincts to play the all three downs as effectively as any LB in this year's draft.

 

[bagwell368]

The answer is - we have him. AT who is as we know less good at ILB then OLB moves back to ILB. Why?

#1. He knows the position. A player like Mayo that can pick up the Pats system and do as well as he did only comes along every 4-5 years. You think slow poke JL will come here and be another Mayo, or even an AT? No way.

#2. The ILB's coming out in the draft are weak, even if Sintim and Mathews are added to the list along with Curry - then its pretty good. But if not? Its a dreadful group. Rey has poor instincts, gets caught out of place, can't shed blocks. He is a specimen, but I say he can't play - no.

#3. We are likely to sign Jason Taylor, and draft a OLB, meaning for at least one year, we don't need outside help if Crable can carry some of the load. If Crable can't, then we draft two OLB's goodness knows this is the year to pig out on OLB's.

Do not draft an ILB this year BB.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Do not draft an ILB this year BB.

Howdy neighbor, welcome aboard.

You had me up until your closing statement. I don't see any Day One ILB who looks to have the tools NE uses inside unless they are converting an OLB (Sintim, English, and Ayers have been discussed off and on). Where I disagree with your statement is Day Two, there's a number of kids who may not be Super Stars, but who could easily be good fits alongside Mayo and Guyton.

The better options are the Jason twins - Jason Williams and Jason Phillips. Phillips has spent the last three years playing MLB in a 3-3-5 defense, so he's not been protected by big DTs and it showed up in the Shrine game with his ability to stack and shed OL. Williams is a record setting WLB in the FCS division (1-AA for you older types) who has the numbers to indicate he's one heck of a downhill player (I started trying to rewatch the Shrine game to key on him last night, but prescription opiates won out). Both have very good to great straightline speed, and Wiliams played a year at Safety before moving to LB.

A couple late round/UDFA types whom I'd consider are Robert Francois and Mike Rivera, Francois in particular showed he could do well against blockers when I watched him in the Shrine game, as long as he remembers to square-up and not get turned around trying to slide around them.

If you meant no Day One ILB, I agree. If you meant none whatsoever, nope, there is a need and there is some talent deeper in the pool.

 

[Synovia]

I see an arguement of point on the relevance of a thumper in a 3/4. I do not believe the game has changed in a way that eliminates this need. I know that there are more 3/4 wr sets, spread schemes, but Titles are won with defense period.

Titles are won by teams that are good on one side of the ball and great on the other. Which side doesn't matter.


The problem is, at this point, the NFL is a passing league, and you can not win when you have players who are liabilities against the pass.

 

[captain stone]

I don't see any Day One ILB who looks to have the tools NE uses inside unless they are converting an OLB (Sintim, English, and Ayers have been discussed off and on). Where I disagree with your statement is Day Two, there's a number of kids who may not be Super Stars, but who could easily be good fits alongside Mayo and Guyton.

The better options are the Jason twins - Jason Williams and Jason Phillips. Phillips has spent the last three years playing MLB in a 3-3-5 defense, so he's not been protected by big DTs and it showed up in the Shrine game with his ability to stack and shed OL. Williams is a record setting WLB in the FCS division (1-AA for you older types) who has the numbers to indicate he's one heck of a downhill player (I started trying to rewatch the Shrine game to key on him last night, but prescription opiates won out). Both have very good to great straightline speed, and Wiliams played a year at Safety before moving to LB.

A couple late round/UDFA types whom I'd consider are Robert Francois and Mike Rivera, Francois in particular showed he could do well against blockers when I watched him in the Shrine game, as long as he remembers to square-up and not get turned around trying to slide around them.

If you meant no Day One ILB, I agree. If you meant none whatsoever, nope, there is a need and there is some talent deeper in the pool.

I definitely agree, esp. with the last statement. What about Scott McKillop from Pittsburgh? There are no questions re: his production, but I have questions re: his ability to stack & shed, and whether he is already physically maxed-out. If he's still available at our 5th-round comp, should he be a consideration - provided of course that most of our other needs have been addressed?

BTW Mr. Box, do you have any more of those prescription opiates left? Better yet, you may want to save some for draft weekend, in case the FO disappoints us (again?).

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

BTW Mr. Box, do you have any more of those prescription opiates left? Better yet, you may want to save some for draft weekend, in case the FO disappoints us (again?).

I've been hoarding these since my multiple trips to the OR in 06-07...if BB ignores my shopping list again I'll probably do something fattening and destructive rather then waste good pain pills on depression.

 

[Bring Back Antowain!]

Here's a name you've probably never heard, but should definitely be considered:

Nick Reed, Oregon

Played defensive end in college, but could very well project to inside linebacker in the Patriots 3-4 scheme sort of like Tedy Bruschi. Ran a 4.71 40 yard dash at his pro day, so he should have the straight line speed to at least handle limited coverage responsibilities.

Would be good in running situations, a two down ILB, as you described.

Obviously, is raw for the position but could be an interesting pickup in the 5th - 7th rounds.

 

[bagwell368]

Howdy neighbor, welcome aboard.

You had me up until your closing statement. I don't see any Day One ILB who looks to have the tools NE uses inside unless they are converting an OLB (Sintim, English, and Ayers have been discussed off and on). Where I disagree with your statement is Day Two, there's a number of kids who may not be Super Stars, but who could easily be good fits alongside Mayo and Guyton.

The better options are the Jason twins - Jason Williams and Jason Phillips. Phillips has spent the last three years playing MLB in a 3-3-5 defense, so he's not been protected by big DTs and it showed up in the Shrine game with his ability to stack and shed OL. Williams is a record setting WLB in the FCS division (1-AA for you older types) who has the numbers to indicate he's one heck of a downhill player (I started trying to rewatch the Shrine game to key on him last night, but prescription opiates won out). Both have very good to great straightline speed, and Wiliams played a year at Safety before moving to LB.

A couple late round/UDFA types whom I'd consider are Robert Francois and Mike Rivera, Francois in particular showed he could do well against blockers when I watched him in the Shrine game, as long as he remembers to square-up and not get turned around trying to slide around them.

If you meant no Day One ILB, I agree. If you meant none whatsoever, nope, there is a need and there is some talent deeper in the pool.

Actually I was talking day 1. I like McKillop a lot at #124, and if we get him, he might be the kind of kid that can play 12-18 snaps a game this year. If Bruschi does everyone a favor and retires then we'd grab up another late camp cut vet from another team. I really agree with BB I don't want too much inexperience at LB. If we draft one of those good OLB, throw in Crable, McKillop and Mayo, that's pretty young. Give me some 31 year old to fill for a year.

 

[Bring Back Antowain!]

Actually I was talking day 1. I like McKillop a lot at #124, and if we get him, he might be the kind of kid that can play 12-18 snaps a game this year. If Bruschi does everyone a favor and retires then we'd grab up another late camp cut vet from another team. I really agree with BB I don't want too much inexperience at LB. If we draft one of those good OLB, throw in Crable, McKillop and Mayo, that's pretty young. Give me some 31 year old to fill for a year.

If Bruschi does everyone a favor and retires?

With Vrabel gone, we need Bruschi. Full knowledge of everything we run, very smart player, true locker room leader, etc etc. Great for the young guys. You would rather have a cut vet than him?

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Excellent points about how crucial it is having a third down difference maker in the middle. Arguably, such a LB is the most valuable player in the 3-4, after NT perhaps. The idea that Mauqluga doesn't fit our scheme b/c he is a just two down LB is a red herring. Comparisons to Ted Johnson ignore Mauluga's speed and versatility.

The two-down run stuffer idea is misguided precisely b/c football has changed--we are obviously light years away from the 2-running-plays-then-a pass NFL of old. It's usually only third-and-a mile situations where most defensive packages replace LBs with DBs en masse. A LB that is so good that he can stuff the run and can hold his own in most intermediate distance situations is obviously ideal. Maualuga is closer to that type of player than any I've seen in recent memory.

Sorry, but scouts (both armchair and "professional") who are saying that Rey will only be a two down player in the NFL A) either haven't watched him play enough, or B) don't understand BB's defensive schemes. People get so caught up in the fact that he was a 4-3 MLB college, it blinds them to the fact that he has all the raw tools and instincts to play the all three downs as effectively as any LB in this year's draft.

I saw Reymal in 3 games last year and I saw a guy that when free from obstruction ran from sideline to sideline and made a lot of plays.

However when he ran into an obstruction, he became a totally different player. For example against Oregon State he spent almost all the time until he got hurt, on the ground watching the game. Against Ohio State big slow OG Rehing busted through and blew him up at least 3 times in the first half.

I'm not saying Reymal could not make it as an ILB on our team, I just think he is a better player in a scheme like the Ravens employ that allows the LB freedon to clean up tackles sideline to sideline instead of having to stack and shed big OL types.

 

[StraightCashHomey81]

I think this is one of our biggest needs in the draft. I know people think BB likes only 3 down LBs, but he still plays Bruschi on 1st and 2nd and lord knows he lacks the coverage ability he used to have. Maluauga would be great in RD1, otherwise players like Frantz Joseph, Brinkley Appleby, and Jason Phillips later would be a good rotation with Bruschi and Guyton next to Mayo. Stintim is a pure pass rusher who would be great in asa OLB, but he is NOT an ILB. The Kruger suggestion is even more absurd, when was the last time u saw a 6'5 ILB? He'd lack the leverage and the experience/insticts to complete the difficult conversion

 

[Ochmed Jones]

There is a player who can fill this role?

I read about Maualuga, a Sintim conversion project, J.Phillips...

But I would like to know your tought about this role!

My vote also goes to Kruger of Utah. This kid spent two years always arond the ball. And against the big physical OL from Alabama, minus OT Smith, he was extremely physical in run support and in coverage.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Actually I was talking day 1. I like McKillop a lot at #124, and if we get him, he might be the kind of kid that can play 12-18 snaps a game this year. If Bruschi does everyone a favor and retires then we'd grab up another late camp cut vet from another team. I really agree with BB I don't want too much inexperience at LB. If we draft one of those good OLB, throw in Crable, McKillop and Mayo, that's pretty young. Give me some 31 year old to fill for a year.

McKillop reads like exactly what we need, right up until you see him taking on OL, then I start looking elsewhere. Like Posluzney a couple years back, I don't want NE to take him because it's bad for the player and the team. Love his nose for the ball, but he'd be better off in a 4-3 with two big bodies sheltering him so he can get lined up for the stop.

The two best ILB I've seen taking on blockers and winning are Anthony Felder and Jason Phillips. Felder is 233 and I'm not sure he will bulk up enough and keep his quickness, Phillips is 239 and seems to be capable of handling another 10 lbs. I still need to go back and rewatch the Shrine game to get a better feel for Jason Williams, but if I had to take him on his profile the way I did Mayo, I'd grab him quick.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I think this is one of our biggest needs in the draft. I know people think BB likes only 3 down LBs, but he still plays Bruschi on 1st and 2nd and lord knows he lacks the coverage ability he used to have. Maluauga would be great in RD1, otherwise players like Frantz Joseph, Brinkley Appleby, and Jason Phillips later would be a good rotation with Bruschi and Guyton next to Mayo. Stintim is a pure pass rusher who would be great in asa OLB, but he is NOT an ILB. The Kruger suggestion is even more absurd, when was the last time u saw a 6'5 ILB? He'd lack the leverage and the experience/insticts to complete the difficult conversion

Kruger is the same height as Ted Johnson.

Someone earlier asked about Kruger in coverage: I only saw the Alabama game, but Utah ran 4-3 and 3-4 sets, depending on the situation, with Kruger playing DE or OLB and dropping into a shallow zone. I'd sub someone in for him on passing downs, but he could handle zone coverage if the O tossed a change-up.

I've posted in the past that I thought Kruger should have stayed in school another year, as it is, he's getting closer to good value as his projection slides him back in the third round, but there's other ILB prospects whom I'd rather have.

 

[bagwell368]

If Bruschi does everyone a favor and retires?

With Vrabel gone, we need Bruschi. Full knowledge of everything we run, very smart player, true locker room leader, etc etc. Great for the young guys. You would rather have a cut vet than him?

When Bruschi was on the field last year, he was invariably the worst Patriot on the field. Did another year make him faster?

He's making $2,067M - $600k cap hit if cut

I don't suggest bringing in another Monty Beisel. I suggest that as usual many teams will be in cap straights going into camp, and release some actually good players. One or two could be ILB's. Obviously if nobody shows up that is clearly a better package then Tedi, then he stays.

I met the guy in Mass General - we were both in at the same time for very serious heart operations. He's a nice fellow. But, he was so brutal on the field last year that it was painful - painful for fans and painful for the Pats.

 

[captain stone]

If Bruschi does everyone a favor and retires?

With Vrabel gone, we need Bruschi. Full knowledge of everything we run, very smart player, true locker room leader, etc etc. Great for the young guys. You would rather have a cut vet than him?

Then let's make Bruschi an assistant coach, because that's what you've just described. As a player, he's more cooked than Vrabel.

At some time, superior talent with inferior system knowledge must supersede inferior talent with superior system knowledge; otherwise, we are left with a roster (or at least a position) that is stagnant, aging & ineffective. As a bridge to the future at SILB (which should not include Gary Guyton, a WILB), the FO should have signed Andra Davis before the donkeys did.

With one of our 3rd-rounders, we should seriously consider Jasper Brinkley; that is, as long as our other needs - OLB, CB, SS, OL - have already been addressed.

 

[captain stone]

My vote also goes to Kruger of Utah. This kid spent two years always arond the ball. And against the big physical OL from Alabama, minus OT Smith, he was extremely physical in run support and in coverage.

But has he ever actually played the ILB position?

If projecting somebody's transition from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB is difficult (which it is), then I believe that projecting somebody's transition from DE or even OLB to SILB for the NEP is much more difficult, because he would be asked to move from the wide open spaces to the concrete jungle; and let's face it, how many of us would want to do that?

If we are drafting somebody to contribute at SILB sooner rather than later, then we should draft somebody who has actual game experience at ILB.

 

[Metaphors]

The two-down run stuffer idea is misguided precisely b/c football has changed--we are obviously light years away from the 2-running-plays-then-a pass NFL of old. It's usually only third-and-a mile situations where most defensive packages replace LBs with DBs en masse. A LB that is so good that he can stuff the run and can hold his own in most intermediate distance situations is obviously ideal. Maualuga is closer to that type of player than any I've seen in recent memory.

Exactly. Which 2 downs are people talking about? Teams pass more than 50% of the time. Good teams call plays to take advantage of matchups...like an ILB that is a coverage liability. Playoff teams pick on the weak link of a team until there is no choice but to change the scheme or get that player off the field.

As for the Ted Johnson comparisons...Belichick wasn't thrilled with TJ when he had him. Why would he be looking for another one? Especially in a pass-happy league with TE's that are just big WR's.

Sorry, but scouts (both armchair and "professional") who are saying that Rey will only be a two down player in the NFL A) either haven't watched him play enough, or B) don't understand BB's defensive schemes. People get so caught up in the fact that he was a 4-3 MLB college, it blinds them to the fact that he has all the raw tools and instincts to play the all three downs as effectively as any LB in this year's draft.

Agree to a point. Rey ended up in the wrong place a surprising amount of the time. Hard to tell if these cases were overall team breakdowns or just Rey not reading the play correctly. Fortunately Belichick likely has a good idea on how Rey would translate and will draft accordingly.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

The Kruger suggestion is even more absurd, when was the last time u saw a 6'5 ILB? He'd lack the leverage and the experience/insticts to complete the difficult conversion

What does height have to do with the ability to take on blocks or the ability to sink hips and anchor? Being tall doesn't hurt you unless you play without proper technique.

Watch the bowl game and see how this kid uses instincts to sniff out tha ball and run downhill to it. He doesn't have to start next season, just be ready to contribute on ST and in sub packages if needed.

 

[Synovia]

Teams pass more than 50% of the time. Good teams call plays to take advantage of matchups...like an ILB that is a coverage liability. Playoff teams pick on the weak link of a team until there is no choice but to change the scheme or get that player off the field..

Anyone remember the game, maybe 2007, where [QB] threw about 10 straight passes to Welker before the other team called timeout, all the same 7 yard slant pattern? They did it because the team came out in a base defense and Welker had a LB on him.


If you play a guy 2 downs who can't defend against the pass, thats what you see.